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Author Topic: Wanted posters in game  (Read 1630 times)

Alan Hunter

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2018, 10:15:24 AM »
]
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Legion XXI

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2018, 10:27:36 AM »
That was supposed to read Wayfarer Kinship, though I'd ship Zephyr as the new dark lord.  Vallaki would probably get a sweet non-grey paint job lol.  The point still stands though - if the Vallaki Garda can't post things to the forums, no group or individual PC with less power/influence than the municipality of Vallaki should be able to do it either.  If we're going to set a bar, might as well have it apply to everyone.

Which is why it's not a very realistic idea.

Purist

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2018, 10:27:41 AM »
Are those refutable?

Yes, they are. I had to ask if he ever played a guard before, because the way he proposes we spread posters actively, as if we already didn't have a significant load of stuff to write and read, made me question that. And it's not just the volume of it, you must choose every word, formatting, and a report can take several minutes. One of his arguments implies that the ability to post on the forums is interconnected with metagaming. While this is true, the problem is not the post, the problem lies on people not being lawful and practicing OOC. The Garda factions has the power of law behind them, we'll suffer in PVP most of the time, and as he said, we are limited within the globe of Vallaki. Of course Vallaki is not the center of the World, but it's the center of the server, just to try and explain the relevance of it. Port-au-Lucine probably comes second but people are vastly scattered there, mainly at least, while in Vallaki the Western Outskirts is like the hot spot. I don't like seeing posters of Port-au-Lucine events in Vallaki, a place so far away in terms of realism, it looks "off", but that's my opinion, they are lawful because people spread the papers around the city. I don't seek forum posts of Dementlieu, because I'm not playing there ATM, so I think that's the natural mindset, if people meta they should be corrected (if possible).

The Garda faction is one that demands dedication and love, with a reward usually much lower than the work you put into it. I'm not saying there aren't huge rewards in there, because there are, but in truth most the love you put into it goes unnoticed. Reports, "papperwork", which all takes minutes are not rewarded at all, besides making you a candidate for promotion, if your guard is good enough of course. I would like to post posters in-game, but the current mechanics aren't good for that. Every time there's a reset everything disappears. Papers and markers. It can be done, I've never given much thought to this issue and this post helped me with that, so I'll try to post in-game as well.

What the Garda would need is like a chest within the faction with a large stock of papers that refills every time there's a reset, so we can get papers, copy and past, and spread around. Perhaps some sorte of mechanics like an OOC press so things go less sore, we can hold the "original papers" in the inventory and simply get papers, copy and spread. I say OOC because a medieval place like Barovia wouldn't have a press. Bear in mind that at times there can be a good number of wanted people and we simply cannot do this work in whole and constant pace, so it's falls on every player to FOLLOW the wanted posts. People could even give an OOC heads up so they can seek the forums.

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2018, 11:20:14 AM »
They're never going to disallow wanted posters from being posted on the forums.  Not everyone has time to log in every day and run around looking for ingame posters to get communications from the Vallaki Garda in the hopes that some level 2 freedom fighter isn't just running around insta-picking them up for basically no reason.

If we're arguing this on the grounds of Vallaki not being big enough to effectively disseminate information, then I think we should ALSO disallow individual PCs from posting things on the forum.  Or any factions that don't span multiple nations/wide areas of the core.  Because surely, say, the Wayfarer Kingship doesn't have the ability to project more into the world than the whole city and government of Vallaki.  And SURELY any single individual PC or small merchant group can't do it either, if even Vallaki doesn't meet the bar. 

So I guess we can all just move to dropping notices ingame only, and good luck to you if you have to work for a few days and can't get ingame, because that's the only way you're going to be able to find any information.  Does that really sound like an improvement to anyone?

Legion's post sums up why we are not likely to make this change now or ever--at a certain point, we're humans playing a game. It's supposed to be very difficult for our characters, but for the players we can cut a few corners.
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Meriana

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2018, 02:25:10 PM »
Seems easier for news to spread within a small village/town than a gargantuan one, so Vallaki being small ought to mean it's quite easy for info to spread throughout the town. Might realistically make it harder for news from other places to come in, though. It seems like it would be nice to have wanted posters represented IG too, by some special bounty board function - running around dropping papers is clumsy. But that requires extra development work. The forum functions decent for those news/rumours type postings IMO. Also, personal experience, when one of my chars received a summon by the Garda, I had three or four characters ask IC if mine had seen the summons :)

Blight

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2018, 03:20:45 PM »
Purist, I've played in the Vallaki Guard. I don't really need to justify myself by laying out specifics and letting you decided if it's "long enough" for me to be "allowed' to have an opinion. But since you've asked, the last time was several months. But even if it was for three days, it doesn't invalidate my opinion. You don't need to be a member of the guard to realize that the capture rates are horribly unbalanced.

There's this disgusting growing trend on the forums where everybody seems to think the best means of debating a topic is to discredit or attack each other personally, and then everybody wonders why our community is so toxic and everybody hates each other. Debate the opinion, not the person. It's entirely possible to discuss an issue without taking it personally or making it personal.

In your post you articulated a love letter to the difficulty playing a Vallaki Guard, that is not my experience. I do not believe that it is any more effort than any other faction.  Sure, there's reading.

And the majority of players in the Guard create "Make-work" projects for themselves to keep busy because there is little to do. Again, just my opinion from my experiences.

I am currently working in law enforcement, and I can tell you that modern day policing does not even come close to the arrest count of the Vallaki guard. And we have real-time Bolos, city-wide dispatch and DNA evidence. The issue here is that for the entire community to instantly "know" that a person is currently wanted, even if they are COUNTRIES away, puts them at a ridiculous disadvantage. It's so glaringly overpowered that even real world law enforcement can't  accomplish it. Hell, without CPIC we have a difficult time even communicating BOLOs between cities.

It is my personal opinion that a potential bounty hunter should have to at the very least taken the steps to have gone and spoken with a vallaki guard or read an actual bounty board before being allowed to run up and gank somebody. This is an event that has the potential to end somebody's character. And we are worried that on behalf of the bounty hunter, they have to put in a little effort to justify that?

There are means to make persistent signposts that display messages over resets. It's not even difficult to script, if that's what we are worried about.

And doing something like that doesn't make it any more difficult for a player to hunt down a bounty.

I'd also like to suggest that we reinforce that bounties can't be hunted across borders. Unauthorized bounty hunting by noncitizens is and has been illegal in every centrally governed developed country since feudalism. Illegal bounty hunters should be arrested, and the penalty would be the value of the bounty. If somebody is to hunt down a bounty, it shouldn't just be this nonchalant experience of sitting in MC until somebody walks by, think "doesn't that player have a bounty?" And then check the forums to confirm its active, wait for them to take the caravan somewhere, and gank them inside.


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Blight

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2018, 03:24:29 PM »
Right now, the only real way to avoid a bounty forever is to do it Bad_Bud style and pull a Snowden, sit in mist camp forever.  But even that didn't work out.
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Edward

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2018, 03:27:35 PM »
Or! RP.

An example could be negotiating, there are always higher up parts of the law you can make contact with via letter and whatnot.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2018, 03:49:24 PM »
It is my personal opinion that a potential bounty hunter should have to at the very least taken the steps to have gone and spoken with a vallaki guard or read an actual bounty board before being allowed to run up and gank somebody. This is an event that has the potential to end somebody's character. And we are worried that on behalf of the bounty hunter, they have to put in a little effort to justify that?

There are means to make persistent signposts that display messages over resets. It's not even difficult to script, if that's what we are worried about.

And doing something like that doesn't make it any more difficult for a player to hunt down a bounty.

I'd also like to suggest that we reinforce that bounties can't be hunted across borders. Unauthorized bounty hunting by noncitizens is and has been illegal in every centrally governed developed country since feudalism. Illegal bounty hunters should be arrested, and the penalty would be the value of the bounty. If somebody is to hunt down a bounty, it shouldn't just be this nonchalant experience of sitting in MC until somebody walks by, think "doesn't that player have a bounty?" And then check the forums to confirm its active, wait for them to take the caravan somewhere, and gank them inside.

We can be better than that.

I agree that *in practice* much of what you say is how players should conduct themselves (in short, always be looking for ways to make the RP better, rather than opting for the lazy, easy way). But what is "a personal opinion" and what should be mandated by rules for everyone are two different things.

I try to put notices in game, and I certainly try to do so when the notice would be in any way antagonizing. But much of the time forum posts are a means to get buzz going on the server and stir up involvement in events. They give players a reason to log in, rather than wondering whether anything is going on and where it might be. Spending time making real posters and routinely placing them is time away from actually running the events and more interactive RP.

Why make it even more daunting and discouraging for players trying to show initiative and involve the PCs of others?

(IMO the problems you perceive about bounties are little related to the forum notices, and the solution you suggest wouldn't address them. I'm still amazed at how many players never seem to look at the forum.)

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aprogressivist

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2018, 03:50:08 PM »
What the Garda would need is like a chest within the faction with a large stock of papers that refills every time there's a reset, so we can get papers, copy and past, and spread around. Perhaps some sorte of mechanics like an OOC press so things go less sore, we can hold the "original papers" in the inventory and simply get papers, copy and spread. I say OOC because a medieval place like Barovia wouldn't have a press. Bear in mind that at times there can be a good number of wanted people and we simply cannot do this work in whole and constant pace, so it's falls on every player to FOLLOW the wanted posts. People could even give an OOC heads up so they can seek the forums.

The Garda wouldn't have a printing press, but they would hire scribes whose job it is to make copies of stuff... maybe adding some scribes who can make copies of documents would be a welcome addition to the faction.
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Purist

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2018, 04:07:22 PM »
Purist, I've played in the Vallaki Guard. I don't really need to justify myself by laying out specifics and letting you decided if it's "long enough" for me to be "allowed' to have an opinion. But since you've asked, the last time was several months. But even if it was for three days, it doesn't invalidate my opinion. You don't need to be a member of the guard to realize that the capture rates are horribly unbalanced.

There's this disgusting growing trend on the forums where everybody seems to think the best means of debating a topic is to discredit or attack each other personally, and then everybody wonders why our community is so toxic and everybody hates each other. Debate the opinion, not the person. It's entirely possible to discuss an issue without taking it personally or making it personal.

In your post you articulated a love letter to the difficulty playing a Vallaki Guard, that is not my experience. I do not believe that it is any more effort than any other faction.  Sure, there's reading.

Two persons will not have the exact same viewpoint, it's physically and empirically impossible. Of course you're entitled to your own opinion, and of course I'm entitled to having mine own even if that means for example I'd judge yours not qualified enough to voice your concerns. If that would be the case I am not the judge of the world, boy I'm not even a forum admin, I can disagree with you and we both will keep our lives intact.

I asked because I wanted to know how -I- would judge your concerns from your experience, because (example) I can say that parachuting is very dangerous and give my thoughts on it, even suggest how to make it more safe, myself being a pilot without parachuting experience, I could have flown parachuters around on their jumps, I would bear knowledge of it but I wouldn't gone through it so far as to be on their shoes(boots).

You think I exaggerated with my "love letter" but that was my experience, I've been around the faction in and out, months short or long, throughout almost a decade now, of course I can compare my play time with yours, and that will not mean to the world that me or you is wrong, but we can feel that about each others.

Already running away too much from the topic in question and your own argument: The captures are unbalanced? The problem are NOT the guards, the problem lies with the people METAGAMING as you so beautifully explained on the rest* of your reply. Don't fight to make things more complicated to those who already have their hands full and get an incredible low progression on their levels, limited access to gear and power to fight, complain about the people that are powermongers METAing the captures, and that partner, is my thought, you can fully disagree with that and go to bed not offended please, because I will not lose my sleep over the forum.


Edit 1: Corrected a word - rest.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 04:13:39 PM by Purist »

Purist

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2018, 04:10:26 PM »
The Garda wouldn't have a printing press, but they would hire scribes whose job it is to make copies of stuff... maybe adding some scribes who can make copies of documents would be a welcome addition to the faction.

Yes, but we don't need to go with all that hassle, just give us an item that can ease and speed everything up. I don't want to go to the Citadel or place X every time I need papers, spreading the papers around every now and then already is task, we don't need another one.

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2018, 06:33:21 PM »
In response to Good doctor's post.

I do welcome the chance of being wordlessly ganked after no role-play because it's a thing to consider when flexing on a low level guard. One of the initial draws to this server I personally adored (albeit with a bittersweet taste in mouth when receiving it because they are month old characters) is how little OOC communication/consent and how much it relies on the in-character actions of the individual. Of course, the aforementioned no-rp gank is always poor form but I'd rather have that than us needing to jump through hoops to do hostile actions especially when we don't have DMs 24/7. We're able to self-enforce the fear of god into someone if it's needed and truthfully, most of us are remarkably restrained when it comes to initiating that ultimate move. If not for the social blowblack, but for the real possibility of failing and getting corpsed yourself.

If I were to point to the opposite of what that is, try being a guard in Arelith. Nobody cares because the consequences are not able to be severe beyond a 24/7 coordinated killbash with your skype buddies where they set the gank timer for 24 hours. Currently there's plenty of characters that keep their head down in the server and they don't have to worry about receiving the big gank. If social RP is their primary goal, they're able to do that in spades with remarkably little outside driving force involved from the setting.

But some of us aren't content with social RP only. We want to be badass renegades, flip tables, or try to mess with other players and eventually that either goes three ways: Perpetual mist camp which isn't safe if you don't have the outlanders supporting you, dead, or so feared that you play around in the sandbox as a server legend.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 06:39:45 PM by Booksarefun666 »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2018, 07:23:16 PM »
I do welcome the chance of being wordlessly ganked after no role-play because it's a thing to consider when flexing on a low level guard. One of the initial draws to this server I personally adored (albeit with a bittersweet taste in mouth when receiving it because they are month old characters) is how little OOC communication/consent and how much it relies on the in-character actions of the individual. Of course, the aforementioned no-rp gank is always poor form but I'd rather have that than us needing to jump through hoops to do hostile actions especially when we don't have DMs 24/7. We're able to self-enforce the fear of god into someone if it's needed and truthfully, most of us are remarkably restrained when it comes to initiating that ultimate move. If not for the social blowblack, but for the real possibility of failing and getting corpsed yourself.

...Currently there's plenty of characters that keep their head down in the server and they don't have to worry about receiving the big gank. If social RP is their primary goal, they're able to do that in spades with remarkably little outside driving force involved from the setting.

But some of us aren't content with social RP only. We want to be badass renegades, flip tables, or try to mess with other players and eventually that either goes three ways: Perpetual mist camp which isn't safe if you don't have the outlanders supporting you, dead, or so feared that you play around in the sandbox as a server legend.

Of course. If everyone was of one mindset about this, there would be no need to discuss and negotiate :D

But we all share the same server, and, perhaps most importantly, those who create, develop, and maintain the environment we swim in have a vision of the world they want to flourish here. And that world, regardless of intent, will evolve in reaction--not only to that design--but to the interactions of its inhabitants.

I don't think what you describe is what the designers intend. It's certainly not how POTM advertises itself. Moreover, it is very easy for a tipping point to be reached in which a sufficient level of RP-free gankery would drive off those who don't like pouring creative thought, energy, and time into a PC just to satisfy the "table flipping" impulses of those who believe that rolling a 20 on a kill shot makes them "badasses" and "legends" ;)

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Blight

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2018, 08:14:41 PM »

If I were to point to the opposite of what that is, try being a guard in Arelith. Nobody cares because the consequences are not able to be severe beyond 24/7 coordinated killbash with your skype buddies where they set the gank timer for 24 hours. 

Yeah, that's really not true. If you don't obey the PC Guards, they can legitimately mechanically bar you from entering their city. You cannot physically enter the city anymore without some serious creativity. The transition is locked and you cant re enter the city without petitioning to have your ban lifted and answering for your crimes.

I dont actually think that's the answer, but the consequences are severe. You mechanically lose out on not only a portion of the community  but any factions or roleplay themes that are represented by those areas.

Personally I think ganks are horrible for our community, but that's not really the topic. I did mention ganking, but I wasn't suggesting we remove the possibility in this thread. I was suggesting that if bounty hunters want to go and gank others, there should be an investment cost of taking the effort to communicate bounties with the Vallaki Guard through some form of IC means PRIOR to the ganking itself.

But the focus of this thread is the means of which how bounties are communicated. My suggestions were only slightly on topic as it was :p
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Wanted posters in game
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2018, 06:51:19 AM »

If I were to point to the opposite of what that is, try being a guard in Arelith. Nobody cares because the consequences are not able to be severe beyond 24/7 coordinated killbash with your skype buddies where they set the gank timer for 24 hours.

Yeah, that's really not true. If you don't obey the PC Guards, they can legitimately mechanically bar you from entering their city. You cannot physically enter the city anymore without some serious creativity. The transition is locked and you cant re enter the city without petitioning to have your ban lifted and answering for your crimes.

I dont actually think that's the answer, but the consequences are severe. You mechanically lose out on not only a portion of the community  but any factions or roleplay themes that are represented by those areas.

Personally I think ganks are horrible for our community, but that's not really the topic. I did mention ganking, but I wasn't suggesting we remove the possibility in this thread. I was suggesting that if bounty hunters want to go and gank others, there should be an investment cost of taking the effort to communicate bounties with the Vallaki Guard through some form of IC means PRIOR to the ganking itself.

But the focus of this thread is the means of which how bounties are communicated. My suggestions were only slightly on topic as it was :p

Not to tilt my hand here too much, but numerous player characters who have run afoul of the Barovian Garda, in whichever jurisdiction they happened to mis-step in, have taken the (appropriate) action of preserving their existence by finding asylum in other countries that simply do not care about Barovia's legal system. Most frequently, these wayward souls find themselves in Dementlieu. Yes, it's true -- Once you've made the mistake of strong-arming a Guard-faction PC, there are consequences. The prevailing theme of this server is that you, even when Native (though generally, Barovians aren't the ones wanted by the Garda, except in a few rare exceptions) that the forces around you are inherently oppressive, bigger than you, stronger than you, and you're just trying to survive. Whether you like it or not, they are the State. Whether that's the Gendarmes, or the Garda, and if you run afoul of the State, you are in some serious trouble. Of course, I imagine this is more of an inconvenience for players/characters who either..

A) Don't have a strong IC social group yet
or
B) Are still concerned about leveling up expeditiously, and want to be able to safely and without-worry, adventure with randoms sets of adventurers without the concern that Tim the Rogue might abscond with your body when you die at Curst.

In which case, I have to readily admit that it my character barely even leaves Port-a-Lucine, and I've mostly leveled off of RP XP. The trick is, you have to find something you actually care to talk about, that keeps you busy, frequently and often. Sitting around a campfire dropping one-liner's, while it nets you XP, it's intermittent at best and doesn't accurately reflect the potential of the RP XP System. Coming from someone who regularly can type out 100 WPM paragraphs with a currently malfunctioning mechanical keyboard, the biggest challenge for me has always been finding ways to keep busy in plot. Fortunately, Dementlieu has no shortage of tableside conversations, backroom plotting, scheming, drinking and general conversation.

If we argue the shoe is on the other foot, and you managed to earn the ire of the Gendarmerie Nationale and you're a level 14+ who's irritated the mid-high level hub of the server for a bounty far exceeding the amount a general barovian bounty equals to -- I'll say from personal experience, that the amount of effort you have to actively put in to legitimately acquire a bounty of any substantial amount in Dementlieu, is literally asking for it to happen as consequence, or you're shirking a summons. Dementlieu is inherently a vastly wealthy nation, so their bounties tend to fetch a bit more and as a result, we tend to be more careful about slapping down bounties from a player perspective knowing full-well that the prices they are generally posted at are enough to sway a lot of characters on the server.

Barovia, it's very easy just to get the wrong side of the stick sometimes, however, the Garda players exist to enforce the setting. And sometimes, especially considering the nature of Barovia in general, that means risking getting a random 5k bounty for casting some magic and giving a spooked Garda a rude hand gesture before running away.

PoTM is not designed in such a way to support an infrastructure of cohesive messageboards and notices to be posted everywhere the Garda/Gendarme player might announce their bounty. It's safe to say that it these organizations have NPCs in the background who handle that bulk workload for them, and in Dementlieu, the Gendarmes directly have usage of the City Press. Either an entire new messageboard system would have to be designed, and then you'd have to walk around and post a notice on each messageboard, and then post it to each town in Barovia that there's a warrant for Tim the Rogue in Vallaki, you're literally just moving the forums to an item in the game. Move an NPC to stand beside that board, you suddenly require DM oversight to try to deface it, which then slows the pace of defacing/molesting the notices and basically ends in the same result as the forums are currently.

If you just leave papers on the ground, those are removed with each reset. As some have noted in the past in discussions elsewhere, this server's reset cycle can be a fickle mistress. It crashes, it gets voted to reset, a DM will reset it for kicks and gigs whenever it's running too slow. Sometimes it's up for three days, sometimes it crashes four times a day. Either way, that would result in Guard players simply spending almost all of their time hanging up posters, when they often have subordinates/npcs who could and should be handling that duty for them, so that they can represent the interactive face of the faction with the rest of the player-base. The thrill of the gimmick will get very old, for the Guard player within a month at most, and eventually, it'll just be a chore.

Guard faction roleplay is already enough like a job, considering every time someone in the Outskirts or in Port-a-Lucine decides they want to have a special moment in the limelight, two or three reports are generally typed out on a forum accompanying the long roleplay and process of handling the criminal. For Gendarmes, if we have to deal with you, typically there's a report in the standard logs, if necessary, a report in the Officer's Logs, and if you have been fined, a report in the Fines Logs, and if you've been arrested AND fined, there'll be a report in the Prison Roster, and the Fines Logs. If you're an Officer, and you're doing your job as an Officer, you also may begin then leaving additional posts into your subordinates' logs so that they can involve themselves in any ongoing investigations or probationary sanctions surrounding this criminal, after the fact. And if anyone has to be summoned as witnesses, or the perp escaped, or had friends involved, there's additional announcement posts to be made. And that's all because Tim the Rogue decided to pickpocket Frank Fighterstein and Frank hauled off and PvP'd on him when he caught Tim's dastardly little fingers in his pants.

tl;dr, we have enough paperwork to go through. It'd seriously just burn out any dedicated Guard player to have to manually fiddle with posting posters on walls declaring Tim the Rogue is Wanted. These are large organizations, and frankly, larger than any organization the player alone could muster to tear down notices. They may be posted in bars, they may be posted on noticeboards, on the back of a door in a latrine; It's up to your character how he runs across the spaghetti western wanted notice with the face of Tim the Rogue on it. Those things travel, and dozens, if not hundreds of NPCs back-up the infrastructure that supports their distribution. The realistic effect of you, or even you and five of your best friends ripping down posters in the City has is just a drop in the water compared to the Government Clerks that walk around PaL and plasters warrants to the walls, or the Garda Recruit NPC, or servant, that nails notices to doors and boards, every day/night cycle, because it's their job. In-fact, if you look around on some of the walls in the City in PaL, there's random posters for Gearling's Firearms and even random 'WANTED!' posters graphically represented on the wall about some smuggling ship and her crew.