New Prestige Class - Dirgist

[EO]

(PRESTIGE CLASS)
Bards follow many paths in these lands. Some fill the traditional role of the wandering troubadour, singing of their own harrowing adventures in the Land of Mists. Others are tortured artists, madly attempting to realize the perfect song that echoes in their minds. A haunted few pursue a darker path still, one that draws them inexorably towards places of the dead. Such bards are obsessed with death, and often feel most at home (if not entirely at ease) in crumbling graveyards and dusty vaults. These dirgists are not necessarily evil. Indeed, they have been profoundly touched by death, and feel the pain of mortal loss more deeply that others. Their songs speak of the sorrow of youth cut short, old age wasted, and the numbing finality of the fate that all men share. Such is the dirgist's closeness to the grave, that it is rumored that the dead whisper their secrets to him while he sleeps.

Since the ability to weave song into magical power is necessary for the dirgist's path, all dirgists are bards. Although multiclassed dirgists are unusual, it is not unheard of for bard/clerics, bard/rogues, and bard/wizards to pursue this prestige class. Some tales even speak of barbarian/bards who lament their fallen ancestors with gruesome war ballads.

- Base Attack Bonus: +3 / 4 Level.
- Hit Die: d6.
- Primary Saving Throws: Will.
- Proficiencies: A dirgist does not gain any additional weapon or armor proficiencies.
- Skill Points: 6 + Int Modifier.

Class Skills: Antagonize, Appraise, Concentration, Discipline, Heal, Hide, Influence, Listen, Lore, Move Silently, Parry, Perform, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device.
Unavailable Skills: Animal Empathy.

REQUIREMENTS:

Feats: Bard Song, Dirge of Woe, Endurance.
Skills: Antagonize 6 ranks, Lore 4 ranks, Perform 8 ranks.
Spellcasting: Ability to cast 2nd-level bard spells.

ABILITIES:

Level
1: Lament for the Fallen - Enemies who fail their saving throw suffer -2 attack and skill checks.
   Whispers of the Dead - +1 skill bonus to Lore for each Dirgist level.
3: Graveyard Sonata - The dirgist can walk among the undead without being seen.
5: Crescendo of Blood - The dirgist and his allies gain +1 attack bonus and damage for each living enemy they kill (maximum +6).
7: Requiem - Enemies who fail their saving throw suffer 1d6 sonic damage each round for each unconscious or dead ally of the dirgist.

BONUS SPELLS AND BARDIC MUSIC:

The character gains new spells and bard song uses per day as if he had also gained a level in his highest caster class (bard, sorcerer or wizard) and his caster level in that class increases accordingly. Dirgist levels count for the purpose of the different bard songs.

[APorg]

Will the movement/actions restrictions to these songs apply? (e.g. Lament for the Fallen ends if the Dirgist casts a spell or uses an item, Crescendo of Blood should have its bonus reset to 0 if the bard does anything other than walking, etc.). My concern is that these are very powerful abilities that stack on top of NWN Bard Song. Having a Dirgist provide up to +6AB and +6 damage on top of Bard Song is kinda OK if the Dirgist is forced to sit back and watch; and means that in PvP, at least, the counter-strategy of attacking the Bard to reset the bonus works. If the Dirgist can also fight while benefiting from up to +6AB/damage, then that's insane.

[EO]

The restrictions don’t apply, just like they don’t for the other songs. The only one that has restrictions is Graveyard Sonata, to prevent exploits.

[Dante101]

This sounds like an incredible boost to an already very powerful class, then.  From its description it seems to me that no bard in their right mind wouldn't apply for this PrC. There's just no downsides that I see. Nothing they give up, but they have so much to gain.

[APorg]

Agreed. And having no restrictions on its songs means that it doesn't even have to restrict itself to its intended niche as a support caster. This is simply too strong.

[EO]

Agreed. And having no restrictions on its songs means that it doesn't even have to restrict itself to its intended niche as a support caster. This is simply too strong.

I take it you took into consideration that due to the longstanding NwN issue it won’t get new Bard spells at Dirgist levels. If that gets fixed I’ll reevaluate some things about it (in PnP they get the bard spells but no bard song progression). And as usual with these discussions, this remains a PrC, and is gated.

[Iridni Ren]

This sounds like an incredible boost to an already very powerful class, then.  From its description it seems to me that no bard in their right mind wouldn't apply for this PrC. There's just no downsides that I see. Nothing they give up, but they have so much to gain.

Things I see given up: Only one primary save versus two; Pick Pocket, Speak Language, and Tumble as skills; must invest a feat (Endurance) that they might not have otherwise; must invest 6 skill points in Antagonize rather than some other skill.

What is gained: Lament of the Fallen, Graveyard Sonata, Crescendo of Blood, and Requiem.

(Whispers of the Dead is a wash.)

Crescendo of Blood seems of limited use in PvP. How often in a PvP fight would a bard last long enough to kill six enemies (to use the most extreme case)?

Similarly for Requiem in that the bonus requires the bard to have lost a lot of comrades before it gets very strong.

I have no idea if these are balanced or not, but they also force the bard down a certain RP path, which IMO would be a deterrent to every bard wanting the Prestige Class.

[Dante101]

This sounds like an incredible boost to an already very powerful class, then.  From its description it seems to me that no bard in their right mind wouldn't apply for this PrC. There's just no downsides that I see. Nothing they give up, but they have so much to gain.

Things I see given up: Only one primary save versus two; Pick Pocket, Speak Language, and Tumble as skills; must invest a feat (Endurance) that they might not have otherwise; must invest 6 skill points in Antagonize rather than some other skill.

What is gained: Lament of the Fallen, Graveyard Sonata, Crescendo of Blood, and Requiem.

(Whispers of the Dead is a wash.)

Crescendo of Blood seems of limited use in PvP. How often in a PvP fight would a bard last long enough to kill six enemies (to use the most extreme case)?

Similarly for Requiem in that the bonus requires the bard to have lost a lot of comrades before it gets very strong.

I have no idea if these are balanced or not, but they also force the bard down a certain RP path, which IMO would be a deterrent to every bard wanting the Prestige Class.

Alright. So there are a few very minor downsides. All of these pale in comparison to +6 AB and Damage for killing a few minks, while still being as effective as any other bard of equivalent level.  The way the description reads, it's basically a further buffed bard. Bard song appears to progress like a basic bard would, which is a Bard's primary advantage over other classes imo.

[APorg]

I take it you took into consideration that due to the longstanding NwN issue it won’t get new Bard spells at Dirgist levels. If that gets fixed I’ll reevaluate some things about it (in PnP they get the bard spells but no bard song progression). And as usual with these discussions, this remains a PrC, and is gated.

No, but then maybe I misread; can you clarify? The text in the first post states the class still gets spells per day and spellcaster level increases for Dirgist levels. Is that text pasted from the PnP and therefore not applicable to NWN?

So a Brd 10/Dirgist 10 will just get Brd 10 spells for now?

But still get access to Bard Song as per a level 20 Bard, with the Dirgist effects on top of that? That's still incredibly powerful.

Implying the CC gate is a full solution to this sort of material is missing the big picture. The CC can't restrict the number of applicants who'll create characters to aim for this material,  and producing material that is too strong reduces diversity rather than increases it. (The number of Bards during this NCE made me chuckle.)

The Dirgist as written in the books at least forces the Bard player to accept more of a support role, and that's cool; indeed it would fit well into PotM's philosophy of encouraging parties. But if the Dirgist can enjoy the full power of his own effects, then that means he's not particularly invested in finding a party. Being a one man blender with Crescendo of Blood is, surely, against both the intent of the class as written and the server philosophy.

[APorg]

TL;DR suggestion: if Crescendo of Blood only applied to the Dirgist's allies, and not the Dirgist himself, that would still allow him to fight, and remain true to its intent as a support ability.

Still incredibly strong but at least not encouraging soloing blenders.

[EO]

TL;DR suggestion: if Crescendo of Blood only applied to the Dirgist's allies, and not the Dirgist himself, that would still allow him to fight, and remain true to its intent as a support ability.

Still incredibly strong but at least not encouraging soloing blenders.

Sure, that can be done. As for the rest, don't focus so much on power and mechanics. We implemented in March what is perhaps the most powerful PrC, the Hallowed Witch, that allows full class progression as a cleric and wizard, and yet we've received 2-3 applications at most, and among those 1-2 max were approved. In the meantime, we received more applications and approved more Monster Hunters, which you deem too weak as a class. Clearly it's not all about mechanics. The fact that PrCs are gated behind an application means people have to want to play that concept, not just want the stats. Not everyone wants to play a gloom bard, a witch of Hala or a dragon disciple.

[Iridni Ren]

+6 AB and Damage for killing a few mink

This is why I say I have no idea if it's balanced or not (and in fact don't think it's possible to know...yet).

My assumption is these effects last only as long as the single bard song and perhaps conflict (i.e., as soon as the "You are too excited to talk" message would go away, so would any effect).

Until we see implementation, we don't know whether your example is applicable.

[Dante101]

TL;DR suggestion: if Crescendo of Blood only applied to the Dirgist's allies, and not the Dirgist himself, that would still allow him to fight, and remain true to its intent as a support ability.

Still incredibly strong but at least not encouraging soloing blenders.

Sure, that can be done. As for the rest, don't focus so much on power and mechanics. We implemented in March what is perhaps the most powerful PrC, the Hallowed Witch, that allows full class progression as a cleric and wizard, and yet we've received 2-3 applications at most, and among those 1-2 max were approved. In the meantime, we received more applications and approved more Monster Hunters, which you deem too weak as a class. Clearly it's not all about mechanics. The fact that PrCs are gated behind an application means people have to want to play that concept, not just want the stats. Not everyone wants to play a gloom bard, a witch of Hala or a dragon disciple.

Sure, but don't dismiss the sheer power difference, either. This post has been up for a few hours and the general feedback so far is that it appears to be an unbalanced new class. Sure, people would have to apply - but those accepted (with the way the PrC is currently written) would be miles ahead of characters of equivalent level.

IMO, if the team is going to implement new classes, an attempt should be made by the devs to ensure it's not overwhelmingly powerful. This PrC seems to be, to me.

[Iridni Ren]

producing material that is too strong reduces diversity rather than increases it. (The number of Bards during this NCE made me chuckle.)

However...

Bards are a very diverse, three-dimensional class with lots of RP paths.

I won't dispute that it's a powerful class, but it is a class that I think will always be disproportionately popular for the RP aspect. (And IMO such classes/characters make for a richer server envirornment than a super strong class that has greatly restricted RP options.)

[EO]

Sure, but don't dismiss the sheer power difference, either. This post has been up for a few hours and the general feedback so far is that it appears to be an unbalanced new class. Sure, people would have to apply - but those accepted (with the way the PrC is currently written) would be miles ahead of characters of equivalent level.

IMO, if the team is going to implement new classes, an attempt should be made by the devs to ensure it's not overwhelmingly powerful. This PrC seems to be, to me.

General feedback consists of aporg and yourself posting multiple times in this topic. That's not general feedback, it's the opinion of two people.

[Dante101]

Sure, but don't dismiss the sheer power difference, either. This post has been up for a few hours and the general feedback so far is that it appears to be an unbalanced new class. Sure, people would have to apply - but those accepted (with the way the PrC is currently written) would be miles ahead of characters of equivalent level.

IMO, if the team is going to implement new classes, an attempt should be made by the devs to ensure it's not overwhelmingly powerful. This PrC seems to be, to me.

General feedback consists of aporg and yourself posting multiple times in this topic. That's not general feedback, it's the opinion of two people.

It's early yet.

[Fungal Artillery]

I think the question that determines just how powerful the class is or isn't is: If you plan your build well, just how much less spells known do you end up having?

Because that seems to be the only downside of consequence to this prestige class. Reflex saves don't make or break a bard and the skill points you can sit on untill your eventual bard class levels.

Endurance isn't a bad feat. I have it on my cleric and I haven't looked back. A bard might've picked Epic of the Lost King instead, but Endurance isn't a half-bad substitute.

The concept is cool and evokes the feeling of The Jester from Darkest Dungeon.

[Iridni Ren]

My thoughts are that it is indeed very early, and it's not obvious that the class will throw the game out of balance (I find Hallowed Witch much more problematic in that regard). These big advantages seem to be very situational...and most classes have big advantages in the right situation/circumstances. It's not as though these new abilities would allow domination (or even come into play) in every circumstance.

We don't know how they'll work mechanically. Divine Vigor, for example, was also OP'd originally and adjusted. So as long as Devs will be responsive should something prove troublesome, then this class seems a tolerable risk. (Hallowed Witch, in contrast, has an advantage that is not so situational.)

I do think it's a class that fits well with the setting. I predict the vast majority of bards, however, will continue not to be Dirgists or apply for the PrC. (Endurance may be an ok feat, but I think it would be low on any bard's list.)

It will also be interesting to see whether any mobs (such as the greater jackalweres) have a Dirgist among them...and how effective the AI is at using these perks !!

[TheFury]

This doesn't seem too insanely broken for me--my only recommendation would be to tie Crescendo of Blood to the exp system in some way if that's possible, so you have to be able to gain experience from an enemy for it to count toward your bonuses. Among other things, that would prevent exploits like hauling a bunch of weak enemies to a major fight and killing them for the boost. The RP also makes sense--those kills have significance.

[APorg]

TL;DR suggestion: if Crescendo of Blood only applied to the Dirgist's allies, and not the Dirgist himself, that would still allow him to fight, and remain true to its intent as a support ability.

Still incredibly strong but at least not encouraging soloing blenders.

Sure, that can be done. As for the rest, don't focus so much on power and mechanics. We implemented in March what is perhaps the most powerful PrC, the Hallowed Witch, that allows full class progression as a cleric and wizard, and yet we've received 2-3 applications at most, and among those 1-2 max were approved. In the meantime, we received more applications and approved more Monster Hunters, which you deem too weak as a class. Clearly it's not all about mechanics. The fact that PrCs are gated behind an application means people have to want to play that concept, not just want the stats. Not everyone wants to play a gloom bard, a witch of Hala or a dragon disciple.

Thanks for considering this suggestion. TheFury' s suggestion is also interesting.

As for powerful prestige class applications being driven also by RP, I understand your point, I disagree with the scope you are considering.

Hallowed Witch is a very restrictive RP class. You have to be TN and belong to a secretive, introverted religion that gets far less RP than more popular, extrovert religions like Ezrites, Lawgivers, or Morninglorders. On top of that, if you fail the application you're stuck with a subpar multiclass build.

Take Palemaster, another (after being boosted) powerful PrC with very restrictive RP: being a Necromancer paints a target on your back and outright makes you a criminal in Dementlieu. On top of that, you're likely to face Powers checks, which may lead to outright closure.

Compare those two to the RP gate or potential consequences for Dirgist. They are way higher and tougher to meet. Therefore, as Bards are a popular class, it's not unreasonable to think the scope of Dirgists will be broader than Hallowed Witches or Palemasters.

[BattleCupcake]

Sure, but don't dismiss the sheer power difference, either. This post has been up for a few hours and the general feedback so far is that it appears to be an unbalanced new class. Sure, people would have to apply - but those accepted (with the way the PrC is currently written) would be miles ahead of characters of equivalent level.

IMO, if the team is going to implement new classes, an attempt should be made by the devs to ensure it's not overwhelmingly powerful. This PrC seems to be, to me.

General feedback consists of aporg and yourself posting multiple times in this topic. That's not general feedback, it's the opinion of two people.

On the Dirgist:

I'll provide some more diverse feedback (I'm also probably the "big bard" around right now?). The dirgist is interesting and compelling, but the lack of advancing spell selection 100% holds it back from being as good as a pure bard. The 5th-level and 6th-level spell slots can't even be used on metamagick'd spells for bards in most cases, as Wounding Whispers cannot be empowered and Sound Lance is rarely used and has a terrible DC. The 6th-level slots would just end up being used to cast Empowered Cure Critical Wounds, if anything, which almost feels against the spirit of the PrC.

The lack of improving Reflex is a wash. It's a loss, but not very painful.

The loss of Tumble is also a wash.

The requirement of Endurance is a feat tax. Almost every PrC has them, moving on.

The loss of 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th, and all five fifth and sixth-level spells known as a bard 12/dirgist 8 is absolutely, irreparably crippling. This loss is so inarguably, insanely bad that even if this prestige class had full base attack bonus and gave a bard a 1/day Wail of the Banshee, it would still be bad compared to the utility of mass animal spells, ethereal visage, healing circle, great dispelling and mass haste.

The new performances are interesting options. Crescendo of Blood is obviously the "big kicker", but given the (max) 1.5 minute duration of bard songs, it would give at best a +2 or +3 bonus to AB and damage while eating into uses of bard song that can be used to also boost saves, use Curse Song or give allies temporary hit points. I would apply for this prestige class on my long-standing Akiri bard. I find the flavor fairly compelling, although losing out on Ethereal Visage and Mass Haste would stink!

Conclusion:

Spells on PotM are king. Losing spell selection is invariably a loss in the grand scheme of taking this PrC. The 7th-level ability is completely worthless, although cool. It is irreparably worse than the bard overall, and it will undoubtedly lower the power of your character by taking it due to the long-standing issue of being unable to progress spontaneous caster spells known in NWN using prestige classes. Please, stop blindly talking about this PrC like it's powerful, guys! Even a bard 15/dirgist 5 (a level 20 character) would know no 6th-level spells in exchange for debuffing abilities that are mostly situational and a bardic performance that's useful for hiding from undead, most of which can be bypassed by a simple Invisibility.

If I may make one (implementable) suggestion, please provide the Dirgist with the ability to cast Dirge as a spell-like feat. It seems an almost ironic tragedy that the pinnacle of bardic necromancy would be unavailable to the dirgist.

Thanks for more cool custom content, EO and dev team! Cool stuff like this is why I play here, it really makes my day!


An aside on the Hallowed Witch:
On paper, it's better than a straight caster, but worshippers of Hala are locked out of the "broken" clerical domains, Hallowed Witches must start as wizards or lose their spellbooks every time a Hak update happens, and the ability spread requirements leave players of this PrC physically crippled. The classically renowned Divine Power + Tenser's combo would be powerful, but the pacifistic nature of a Halan basically makes you fall by using it.

The reduced spellcaster level compared to a pure caster makes dispelling even more painful, and the late arrival of critical spells for dungeoning such as mind blanking and death warding means a Hallowed Witch is only useful for dungeons they are already massively overleveled for.

Hallowed Witch makes a good invisible healer, not a good substitution for a wizard and a cleric.

[Dante101]

This is a great summary, but I have to disagree based on how the class is written. If your assumptions are correct, I agree with some of your points.

The loss of 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th, and all five fifth and sixth-level spells known as a bard 12/dirgist 8 is absolutely, irreparably crippling. This loss is so inarguably, insanely bad that even if this prestige class had full base attack bonus and gave a bard a 1/day Wail of the Banshee, it would still be bad compared to the utility of mass animal spells, ethereal visage, healing circle, great dispelling and mass haste.

The new performances are interesting options. Crescendo of Blood is obviously the "big kicker", but given the (max) 1.5 minute duration of bard songs, it would give at best a +2 or +3 bonus to AB and damage while eating into uses of bard song that can be used to also boost saves, use Curse Song or give allies temporary hit points. I would apply for this prestige class on my long-standing Akiri bard. I find the flavor fairly compelling, although losing out on Ethereal Visage and Mass Haste would stink!

The original description made it sound like caster level and bard song progression would continue as though leveling as a bard. If I've misread it, then I agree that losing 5th and 6th level spells will be a hindrance and help balance out the gains from the class. Though I personally don't think it's as crippling as you make it sound. What you lose is easily made up for by a mage.

The ability description for Crescendo of Blood doesn't specify a duration or that it links up with bard song at all. If that were the case, then I'd agree on that front as well.

[BattleCupcake]

This is a great summary, but I have to disagree based on how the class is written. If your assumptions are correct, I agree with some of your points.

The loss of 1 1st, 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th, and all five fifth and sixth-level spells known as a bard 12/dirgist 8 is absolutely, irreparably crippling. This loss is so inarguably, insanely bad that even if this prestige class had full base attack bonus and gave a bard a 1/day Wail of the Banshee, it would still be bad compared to the utility of mass animal spells, ethereal visage, healing circle, great dispelling and mass haste.

The new performances are interesting options. Crescendo of Blood is obviously the "big kicker", but given the (max) 1.5 minute duration of bard songs, it would give at best a +2 or +3 bonus to AB and damage while eating into uses of bard song that can be used to also boost saves, use Curse Song or give allies temporary hit points. I would apply for this prestige class on my long-standing Akiri bard. I find the flavor fairly compelling, although losing out on Ethereal Visage and Mass Haste would stink!

The original description made it sound like caster level and bard song progression would continue as though leveling as a bard. If I've misread it, then I agree that losing 5th and 6th level spells will be a hindrance and help balance out the gains from the class. Though I personally don't think it's as crippling as you make it sound. What you lose is easily made up for by a mage.

The ability description for Crescendo of Blood doesn't specify a duration or that it links up with bard song at all. If that were the case, then I'd agree on that front as well.

They're bardic performances, thus they last for 1 minute (or longer with extended music), with the exception of instantaneous effects. These new abilities key off of bardic music and consume one use each, just like Curse Song, Epic of the Lost King, Dirge of Woe, Inspire Spellpower, and others do.

Caster level progresses, so spells known become stronger/last longer, but spells known cease to come due to the NWN engine, so they're locked at whatever level of bard the character has attained.

A trivial AB boost will never be worth losing the ability to cast several mass hastes per rest cycle, even if nothing else was ever done with those 6th-level spell slots.

Thanks for the respectful tone of your post.

[Dante101]

They're bardic performances, thus they last for 1 minute (or longer with extended music), with the exception of instantaneous effects. These new abilities key off of bardic music and consume one use each, just like Curse Song, Epic of the Lost King, Dirge of Woe, Inspire Spellpower, and others do.

Caster level progresses, so spells known become stronger/last longer, but spells known cease to come due to the NWN engine, so they're locked at whatever level of bard the character has attained.

A trivial AB boost will never be worth losing the ability to cast several mass hastes per rest cycle, even if nothing else was ever done with those 6th-level spell slots.

Thanks for the respectful tone of your post.

I appreciate the clarification.  I hadn't known about the limitations with the NWN engine, as I've never dealt with casters on servers with custom content such as PotM -- so I trusted the original description regarding caster and spell progression to hold true.  And if these abilities actually consume bard songs on their own (not built into the current base bard song / curse song, as I assumed they'd be), then I think the class is far more balanced than I had originally thought.

If all of the above is true, then I'd concede to your points.

[BattleCupcake]

It does say you do get spells & bard song uses per day guys, that's why I had my specific query.

At worst, taking a level of bard after your dirgist levels would let you pluck out all the spells your bard should've had at the equivalent total level I assume. So don't worry about the spells, it's in the description it will have all its spells one way or another.

No, spells known in your spellbook as a spontaneous caster are hard-coded based on the class level itself. Otherwise, sorc/cleric/hallowed witch wouldn't be nearly as bad.