NWN EE update: Combat Modes while walking

[Always_a_hero]

With the new NWN EE update released now yesterday, it seems one can now walking normally while having -any- combat mode activated until de-activated or making an action such as taunting, drinking potions and more. For those not using combat modes often, the main ones I'd like to point out are expertise (w/ improved), power attack (/w improved), parry mode, defensive casting, etc (if not all of them).

I find this, if it applies to all, interesting yet somewhat frightening to be now able to walk around with, for example, a permanent +10 AC in case for surprise.

So with those mixed feelings, I'm making this post as to gather opinions on this subject. Of course, the thing having only been discovered for me a few hours ago might not leave enough time to see the results of this change on the server and its members, if any have or will occur. But based on your experience with the game, what changes will this bring to our gaming experience in terms of PvP and PvE, or the overall balance?

[Wholesome Memester]

This barely seems worth more cause of alarm than the perpetually buffing wizard/cleric that walk around due to spell vfx being off.

It's an amazing quality of life feature.

[zDark Shadowz]

Who doesn't remain stationary with Expertise turned on anyway?

[Iridni Ren]

This barely seems worth more cause of alarm than the perpetually buffing wizard/cleric that walk around due to spell vfx being off.

It's an amazing quality of life feature.

To state one obvious difference relevant to the OP, buffs have limited duration:

interesting yet somewhat frightening to be now able to walk around with, for example, a permanent +10 AC in case for surprise.

Moreover, "lack of spell VFX" is a subject for another thread.

[DM Erebus]

The effect of this change on PVE is outstandingly positive. Dropping out of Expertise or Power Attack because of a combat shuffle or chasing a fleeing enemy has ruined many-a fighter's day.

I would say the effect on PVP could be broadly positive. We all know the playbook for PVP is whoever has the element of surprise is going to emerge victorious by the application of sudden overwhelming force. If people can now quite happily go about their business with Improved Expertise on, ganking becomes less viable.
I assume spellcasting drops Expertise, else wizards with the Feats to burn become even more outrageous.

[Tycat]

as long as this was intended it is amazing. This is the only reason I hated Expertise as much as I did, because the moment you try to use tactical maneuvering, you dropped it.

[Fungal Artillery]

The unwanted minigame of trying to keep Imp. Expertise on, so you don't instantly eat dirt, is gone?

I guess I have something to be thankful for even though we don't celebrate Thanksgiving here.

This is a good change. It lessens player frustration over a thing that acted wonky and out of their control.

If you tweaked the numbers of expertise, you'd also have to tweak all the monsters that seem to have been designed around the existance of Imp. Expertise as +10 AC/-10 AB.

[APorg]

The fix is reasonable. The problem with having people getting it for a constant +10 AC boost is that, in PnP the Combat Expertise only gave you an AC boost when you made a melee attack.

So, likewise, Expertise in NWN should only grant you an AC boost when you are in combat and have a target selected to attack.

[LivingWasteland]

Oh no, something changed!

EVERYBODY PANIC!

[Always_a_hero]

Oh no, something changed!

EVERYBODY PANIC!

I didn't make this post to exposed a new mechanic as if anything new is to be revised, feared or frowned upon as different of the original version. I wanted to see the different opinions and based my uncertain own on those.

So overall it feels like walking around without having a combat mode cancelled is a positive thing, but there are still a few counter points as for the elephant in the room being expertise.

Is anyone going to complain they can get this +5 to 10 AC? I don't think so, but like it was pointed out it lowers greatly ganking potential. Is there anyone who would actually complain about ganking being less viable? That's something I'd actually like to know from someone's experience.

[zDark Shadowz]

It'd be hard to gauge this from someone's experience with a toggle AC since this is a new feature. I've played on plenty of very hostile PvP servers in RP 'settings' where you had to build smart & plan accordingly if you wanted to pull off a 'gank'.

Generally, for melee characters, you attack from stealth or invisibility to catch someone off flat-footed and gain an advantage to attacks if they don't have blind-fight, landing an Improved Knockdow to keep their AC down as you lay in the criticals or sneak attacks. In low level ganking low levels, standing IE AC would make a difference, but, low levels aware of ganking *would have had IE turned on whenever they were still anyway* so this change isn't too different. It makes less experienced players better at using their IE to block ganking, that's about it.

If you're a caster ganker that begins chain-casting empowered damage spells or death spells, being able to use IE as you run away (better that is, you could still do it before between cursor clicks) before triggering invisibility, greater sanctuary and/or hide in plain sight to attempt again at another date if the gank failed.

In mid to high level PvP, whoever is going to gank someone else will already prebuff their attack significantly before even approaching their target to make sure their AB exceeded their opponents AC, which is easy enough to do on low magic items servers and if your target isn't encased in armour 24/7. The unbuffed target with an extra +10 might offer a little more resistance, but not much, flat-foot penalties are harsher to some classes than others but they still do something even if you have blind-fight and uncanny dodge.

I think the only real issue that may arise, is people using IE while escaping in a much easier manner than before when toggling it back on between their running attempts.

In short, it's a great feat which always has its better use when you are 'not attacking' because then the penalty to attack is redundant.

Running away in Improved Expertise mode is easier, and it's not going to be interrupted prematurely now during combat. If you really want to gank someone, you can still do it easily, just don't skimp out on the preparations and complain after.

[MAB77]

We'll have to observe how it actually changes in-game mechanics before taking any actions. Though were talking about something granting players a higher chance of survival.

[Always_a_hero]

We'll have to observe how it actually changes in-game mechanics before taking any actions. Though were talking about something granting players a higher chance of survival.

Indeed. But would an increased chance of survival affect the player experience based on the horror brought from the stress of being hit by the unknown? Again, this is a stress which can be brought from players with ganks, but also (A)MPCs and DMs.

Other than that, I suppose it changes a certain point for the debate of the importance of INT as a stat in builds, but I won't insist on discussing that here as it can be something redundant for many.

[zDark Shadowz]

If they aren't already, can all combat modes / stances be detectable through the Examine Object player tool?

[EO]

If they aren't already, can all combat modes / stances be detectable through the Examine Object player tool?

They probably could if we wanted to.

Also this change is something we implemented not the update. It’s an option that was made available with EE that we chose to activate.

And as a general reminder since the hak update IE requires 6 BAB so it’s not a feat low levels would have access to.

[APorg]

I think adding stances to the Examine Tool is a good idea; it's supposed to represent fighting defensively or casting defensively, etc. Surely such a thing would be visibly identifiable.

[Iridni Ren]

So, likewise, Expertise in NWN should only grant you an AC boost when you are in combat and have a target selected to attack.

I agree with this for reasons discussed in the Paladin Build thread.

Also, people have mentioned flat-footed penalties a couple of times.

In other circumstances, a character is flat-footed when doing none of the following: attacking (melee or ranged), moving, or casting a spell, feat, or special ability.

That the game implements a special mechanic (or condition) to penalize a PC who has an empty action queue implies that something which is described as "making defensive attacks" should especially not persist as a defense in this state. No Dodge, no Tumble...why Expertise?

It's not logical.

[Legion XXI]

I always felt like the ability to have these modes kick on/off when wanted and not just "stick" on was a sort of skill ceiling thing that veteran players would have reached over newer ones.  To me it gave me some more stuff to manage in melee combat so it's not so boring in general, and gave me decisions to make.  This change just makes it easier - which isn't really objectively a good or bad thing.  Just easier. I don't care either way, and I feel like most people will be in favor of it.  I never found it hard to manage before, so no change for me.  I feel like most people who have played this game a while feel the same.

It makes things immensely better for people having to play on a track pad.  If that's you, Ezra bless.  You're a trooper.

I do feel like more people will walk around with Imp Expertise up all the time, allowing some standard melee builds to just chill in 40+ AC without buffs indefinitely by mid-level.  Just means that now for PvP you should focus disables and burst damage options like pistols, spells, traps, ect for your ganks instead of melee combat.  The people really getting screwed here are (surprise) rogues and assassins who often attack from stealth and have lower AB so this is going to be harder to overcome.  If you miss that first shot out of stealth and give them time to target you to take your sneaks away, you might as well run.

The thing that really seems to be a balance issue is if you can drink potions or use items on the run.  This means your PC can just circle kite and heal up with potions endlessly.  AI aren't smart enough to stop him and PCs all run at the same speed unless haste comes into play.  Could make combat more obnoxious more than anything.  We already have an issue with Heal potion spam in mid-high level PvP, imagine that WITH being able to run at haste speeds while you heal.


The idea to make stances visible by examine is super cool - I love it.  I need it. 

[Knight of Rhodes]

What armor type does the feats provide? I'm pretty sure expertiese doesn't help when you flatfooted

[Socha]

I'm positive that Expertise and Improved Expertise are ignored when caught flat-footed because they count as Dodge AC, so it doesn't change anything regarding attacking from stealth/invisibility.

[Legion XXI]

It works while flat footed, and it's not dodge so it doesn't count toward the +20 cap.  Seriously, you can stand there flat footed with it on and let people wail on you to test. Furthermore, it adds the AC against touch attacks like certain spells and pistol shots.

[Socha]

I tracked down the page that explains it and yeah, that's right. (http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_class)
The AC is classified as "Other" and stays when caught flat-footed and against touch attacks.

[Always_a_hero]

For clarification, being flat-footed removes dexterity, dodge and tumble Armor Class. Meaning those the less affected by being flat-foot status are non-dex based, non-caster/special ability user, without tumble proficiency.

[Mailbox-2100]

 The new toggle is great. Took me like an hour to understand what was happening. It just makes them easier to use, whereas before they were real sketch and deactivated alot from strange movement and stuff.

 I hope it remains how it is. The old way isn't bad either (im used to it), but the new way is definitely more precise.

[Iridni Ren]

The old way was bad because it was buggy. For example, enemies fleeing (and sometimes pursuit) caused things to happen that shouldn't have. But I don't think combat modes (by definition) are meant to be active when not in combat, particularly Expertise/Improved Expertise. Surprise and being caught unprepared are integral parts of NWN and even PnP, and the special programming required to include the state of flat-footed evidences that.

As someone who is not a good "clicker" but plays the game mostly for RP, being able to click it and forget it makes my life easier. But making things simpler doesn't always improve game balance or immersion.