Suggestion : Mark of the Mists

[Ken14]

I've been thinking about the fact that we have far more heroic or neutral-minded PC's then there are evil PC's.

And I can see why that might be. If you're evil and that's been found out, well, most of the time, your tush is grass. Good-inclined sorts will try to arrest/kill you, and the neutrally-minded are wildcards.

So I came up with a suggestion to perhaps cause a surge of new villains amongst us! An incentive. I call it : The Mark of the Mists.

Whether this be done with an app or at the character creation, I'll leave up to others to decide, but basically, what it boils down to:

It's common knowledge that Evil tends to be favored in Ravenloft. Necromancy is more powerful, and those who cry out in vengeance or hatred have a chance to be heard and empowered. And that's what I'm thinking of, here.

The requirement would be that your character HAS to be an Evil Aligment, and act accordingly.

The mark gives ones benefits. What those benefits are, well. Could be anything! Perhaps:

1) Similarly to MPC's, constant XP gain. Not nearly as much, of course, maybe something more along the lines of the RP XP bonus, and it stops at a certain set level.
2) Stat bonuses. Unlikely, but hey, why not? Could be fun to see a murderous (barovian?) serial killer who's massive and has a +2 to STR and CON. Or more. That sort of thing.
3) Special abilities. Mayhaps a Necromancer gets a special ability to call up several skeletons and/or zombie mobs who're friendly only to him. Maybe the Barovian Serial Killer can infuse a weapon with his bloodlust, giving it Vampiric Regen.

Honestly, sky's the limit what benefits such a Mark could give. It would need to have equal drawbacks, of course:

1) OCR penalties, possibly. Especially with stat bonuses. Grown to wider size, possibly an engorged head if they get a INT bonus, that sort of thing. Could be even be just an aura of unease around them, as well.
2) Stat Penalties. Taking the example of the Barovian Serial killer, from before: If you're that strong and massive? Not exactly nimble. -2 DEX! Not exactly empathic, either. -2 WIS!
3) Derangements. Perhaps my Barovian Serial Killer imagines there's a turnip telling to him kill people. Maybe he's deadly afraid of mirrors.
4) Trying to repent ( aka losing the evil alignment) would result in the loss of the advantages of the mark, but NOT the disadvantages. Those'll remain forever.


At any rate, just another thingie I've cooked up. Thoughts, feedback, improvements, all is appreciated!

[APorg]

What you're suggesting is effectively covered by the Dark Blessings of the Dark Powers.

[Iridni Ren]

I've been thinking about the fact that we have far more heroic or neutral-minded PC's then there are evil PC's.

And I can see why that might be. If you're evil and that's been found out, well, most of the time, your tush is grass. Good-inclined sorts will try to arrest/kill you, and the neutrally-minded are wildcards.

So I came up with a suggestion to perhaps cause a surge of new villains amongst us! An incentive. I call it : The Mark of the Mists.

Whether this be done with an app or at the character creation, I'll leave up to others to decide, but basically, what it boils down to:

It's common knowledge that Evil tends to be favored in Ravenloft. Necromancy is more powerful, and those who cry out in vengeance or hatred have a chance to be heard and empowered. And that's what I'm thinking of, here.

The requirement would be that your character HAS to be an Evil Aligment, and act accordingly.

The mark gives ones benefits. What those benefits are, well. Could be anything! Perhaps:

First, if you lump good and neutral together, then it seems to me the simple explanation for why we have more of them is you're counting two alignments to one

Now as to whether we have more good PCs than evil, most of the time more people want to play heroic. I also think the setting would suffer greatly if evil PCs were in the majority because good has to show restraint, whereas evil does not. In other words, if evil PCs came to dominate the landscape, playing good PCs would be even more difficult than playing evil PCs is now. Neutral PCs IMO would tend to throw in with evil as well, out of self interest.

Your suggestions for giving evil a leg up are too open-ended to comment on specifically, but I can see giving some evil-only feats, as Voracious effectively is. This might provide incentive for playing an antagonist without upsetting the balance too much.

(I personally would prefer Devs work on something besides feats at this point as I feel we have plenty of them. It might be interesting to know how many feats are seldom if ever taken by PCs.)

Another thought: Replace some of the gear that is vendor trash currently with better versions...but usable by evil only.

[sotbiii]

First, if you lump good and neutral together, then it seems to me the simple explanation for why we have more of them is you're counting two alignments to one

Now as to whether we have more good PCs than evil, most of the time more people want to play heroic. I also think the setting would suffer greatly if evil PCs were in the majority because good has to show restraint, whereas evil does not. In other words, if evil PCs came to dominate the landscape, playing good PCs would be even more difficult than playing evil PCs is now. Neutral PCs IMO would tend to throw in with evil as well, out of self interest.

To lump good end neutral together is pretty accurate. Most PC's are friendly towards each other, hang out in mist camp and dungeon together and are very likely to gang up together.

The so called good PC's do -not- show restraint. Several times I have seen good attack evil just because of religion and not because that person had actually done something. It's the low level evils that tend to get picked off this way.
When you are higher level you are a little more safe but you are still out numbered 100 to 1 and have to watch your step. You can get attacked in Mist Camp so you can't really stay there, you need to dungeon to pile up your evil powars, but going to dungeons puts you in to a risks of meeting a puffed up party that wants to kill you.
And if you do die, you are closured for good, because the good/neutral posse also has friends in garda and gendarmes and they have long since had you wanted on either real or false charges (never mind the evidence) and when you die, you are going to get vaulted.

Evil characters show far more restraint in Ravenloft, even when they do have IC reason to murder just about anyone, they rarely do because it would be considered grieving and because it is tactically unwise. Everyone is friends together and soon there will be a mob to murder you if you so much as pinched a hair from someones head.

That said, I'm far more happier playing evil thand good characters. When ever I try to play good, its just... Dull. It's hard to find any kind of goal to achieve. You have no antagonist. No one to hinder you. No one to taunt you. No one to hunt you down. No one to oppose you. Meh.

[APorg]

And if you do die, you are closured for good, because the good/neutral posse also has friends in garda and gendarmes and they have long since had you wanted on either real or false charges (never mind the evidence) and when you die, you are going to get vaulted.

This is either nonsense (DMs keep watch over how Garda/Gendarmes vault PCs) or arguing OOC over IC matters.

Alliances between Good PCs garda/gendarmes are not the default. They are the result of IC work, and fraught with peril (if you think Citadel or Dementlieuse politics is safe to navigate for Good PCs, you don't know the setting). And most of the time, getting vaulted means your character committed several crimes serious enough to warrant it. All this is IC. Complaining about it OOC is in very poor taste if not an outright rule break.

The truth is this: there are responsibile players of Good PCs, there are irresponsible players of Good PCs, there are responsible players of Evil PCs, and there are irresponsible players of Evil PCs.

The DMs do help and encourage responsible Evil PCs along dark paths, and the Dark Blessings (which cover almost every point in the OP's first psot) are one of those tools. But this is always handled on a case-by-case basis, because otherwise, irresponsible Evil PCs go chasing for them like candy from a pinata.

But if you're here complaining OOC about legitimate IC actions against Evil PCs, then that is not responsible behaviour.

[Iridni Ren]

Evil characters show far more restraint in Ravenloft, even when they do have IC reason to murder just about anyone, they rarely do because it would be considered grieving and because it is tactically unwise.

I'm not arguing about the current situation and the level of restraint; I'm saying if the numbers were reversed "playing good PCs would be even more difficult than playing evil PCs is now."

Let's say you are correct that evil PCs are outnumbered 100 to 1 by good PCs. I've played a PC now for slightly more than a year who does little to hide her evil nature.  (To be fair, she's not my main, but I've never not logged her to avoid consequences.) She doesn't do anything openly, however, that would justify actually killing her.

What I do is the same as I do with any PC: I assume she wants to survive as much as she wants to do her nefarious deeds. So she's prudent. Also, evil PCs can lie with abandon, whereas good PCs should have at least some qualms about it.

Good PCs should show restraint. Some players are poor players compared with others, as aprogressivist says, and that's just how normal distributions work. Likewise, some players never think it's fair when their PCs are closured.

Bad examples, however, make for bad rules. We will be a better community when we view playing the game well as being about fairness, mutual enjoyment, and excellent RP, rather than "winning" by killing someone else's PC and "losing" when our own PC dies.

[sotbiii]

And if you do die, you are closured for good, because the good/neutral posse also has friends in garda and gendarmes and they have long since had you wanted on either real or false charges (never mind the evidence) and when you die, you are going to get vaulted.

This is either nonsense (DMs keep watch over how Garda/Gendarmes vault PCs) or arguing OOC over IC matters.

Alliances between Good PCs garda/gendarmes are not the default. They are the result of IC work, and fraught with peril (if you think Citadel or Dementlieuse politics is safe to navigate for Good PCs, you don't know the setting). And most of the time, getting vaulted means your character committed several crimes serious enough to warrant it. All this is IC. Complaining about it OOC is in very poor taste if not an outright rule break.

The truth is this: there are responsibile players of Good PCs, there are irresponsible players of Good PCs, there are responsible players of Evil PCs, and there are irresponsible players of Evil PCs.

The DMs do help and encourage responsible Evil PCs along dark paths, and the Dark Blessings (which cover almost every point in the OP's first psot) are one of those tools. But this is always handled on a case-by-case basis, because otherwise, irresponsible Evil PCs go chasing for them like candy from a pinata.

But if you're here complaining OOC about legitimate IC actions against Evil PCs, then that is not responsible behaviour.

I was not complaining about anything nor did I say anything false. I was merely explaining to to Indri why team evil is the underdog.
Please don't try to turn this in to an argument when there is none to be had.

[APorg]

I consider it an issue that you don't recognise that your post is stepping on IC toes.

[Knight of Rhodes]

There are more good and neutral than evil. .but that is almost always because of a fear of consequence and a lack of sportsmanship.

On both sides.

[Knight of Rhodes]

On that same note, it's why I am particularly fond of the AMPC avenue. Those that want to be evil, and attribute to the base nature of the setting, can apply to do so, with a lot less to lose. To those people that do so with long established characters, a round of friggin applause. Looking at you, Dread.

[sotbiii]

I consider it an issue that you don't recognise that your post is stepping on IC toes.

Kay...? Whose IC toes am I stepping on? Yours?
I merely stated that because most PCs (including gendarme/garda etc.) are in this good/neutral cluster who hang out and are friendly together, evil PCs who act against one of these PCs is easily outnumbered and the underdog in any confrontation, thus creating the dynamics that are.
I did not say they are doing anything wrong nor was I accusing anyone of anything.
I merely stated how things are.
If I have now somehow insulted your IC toes, please send me a PM and we can discourse it further.

[Silas Rotleaf]

I would love to see something like this or if a version of the Tainted/haunted backgrounds from stuff like Champions of Darkness (which I know, not a book the staff is too keen on because of how broken/awful a lot of the other stuff in there was) implemented in somehow mechanically... But I can kind of understand the why we don't have it too. There's thematic potential but it might also be abused as a cheap power boost in the wrong hands kinda I guess. Still interesting though!

[EO]

As previously mentioned the Powers Checks mechanism covers the original poster’s suggestions. We don’t favor good or evil, outside of the AMPC/MPC templates. Even Powers Checks are essentially a mix of good and bad things.

[APorg]

Kay...? Whose IC toes am I stepping on? Yours?
I merely stated that because most PCs (including gendarme/garda etc.) are in this good/neutral cluster who hang out and are friendly together, evil PCs who act against one of these PCs is easily outnumbered and the underdog in any confrontation, thus creating the dynamics that are.
I did not say they are doing anything wrong nor was I accusing anyone of anything.
I merely stated how things are.
If I have now somehow insulted your IC toes, please send me a PM and we can discourse it further.

You are confusing matters, between observation of irresponsible "Good Guy" behaviour, and legitimate IC "Good Guy" strategy.

Does it suck that mid level Bad Guys will get curbstomped by level 20 Good Guys in the Outskirts? Yes. That's irresponsible Good Guy behaviour.

But otherwise, much of the things you are talking about, the "dynamics", are IC. The network of "friends" that will gank you if you try and take someone out? Hey, in my experience, that goes both ways -- Bad Guys can make friends too!

But especially the Garda/Gendarmes stuff. Anything that actually exists there, those are IC alliances, built from IC work. Sometimes, good guys have the edge on those; but sometimes the bad guys do. It undermines and undervalues the IC work that goes on to falsely present this as some sort of OOC status quo, because when the playing field changes -- and it always does eventually -- it will (or rather, should) change because of IC actions.

Specifically: the Garda are not friendly to Good Guys. They are ultimately servants of a Lawful Evil tyrant. Evil types there aren't hunted because they're Evil, but because they break the law -- or become so big for their boots that they start looking like competition.

As for the Gendarmerie, I won't even go there -- it's far too close to IC stuff to discuss -- save to say that most recent plots have had a lot to do with revolution and change. What's true today will almost definitely not be true tomorrow.

[sotbiii]

You are confusing matters

No. You are.

[Arawn]

I did not say they are doing anything wrong nor was I accusing anyone of anything.
I merely stated how things are.

Sotbii, your post reads as an accusation, especially as it is subjective, based on your personal experience, and therefore cannot "merely" be "how things are."

Everyone, let's tone it down a notch, please.

[sotbiii]

I did not say they are doing anything wrong nor was I accusing anyone of anything.
I merely stated how things are.

Sotbii, your post reads as an accusation, especially as it is subjective, based on your personal experience, and therefore cannot "merely" be "how things are."

Everyone, let's tone it down a notch, please.

Hold on now, accusation of what? Or who? What part?
Also to me, based on my subjective experiences, things are as they are... Obviously. I am not sure what you are trying to say.
Unless what you are trying to say is that I should shut up.

[Arawn]

I did not say they are doing anything wrong nor was I accusing anyone of anything.
I merely stated how things are.

Sotbii, your post reads as an accusation, especially as it is subjective, based on your personal experience, and therefore cannot "merely" be "how things are."

Everyone, let's tone it down a notch, please.

Hold on now, accusation of what? Or who? What part?
Also to me, based on my subjective experiences, things are as they are... Obviously. I am not sure what you are trying to say.
Unless what you are trying to say is that I should shut up.

I'd be happy to clarify directly via Discord or otherwise, but for now, let's keep the thread on track.

[EO]

I’ll lock this thread for now. Folks, remember to remain civil even when disagreeing.