Author Topic: Improving Barbarian Class Feats  (Read 2062 times)

Alan Hunter

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2018, 04:35:03 PM »
I uhh. Wow kind of jaw drop there. First xross classing is always a bonus. Therws no doubt xross classing makes a diffrence in versatility. As pure barbarians go I never met or seen one. As I stated seems somethings missing from barbarians. As a ravenloft barbarian goes most of you made some fine points.  Some id thw feats mentioned I never considered and some just don't come off appealing as some of the utility feats. Some of the comments made seem to suggest I'm inexperience, to Ravenloft maybe, not so much uxh vanilla. I'm not a council member or anything I'm not a developer I can only go off from experiences and what I can manage to learn. A saving throw to precent passing out from rage death with 5hp would be a cool ability. And I totally think a last ditch effort feat to remained standing would be an awesome addition. Also it's rather daft for people to make assumptions where there is oppurtunity for improvement. Regardless of upgrades there is laways something to improve or better. Regardless of enormous evidance not all people have the advantages of others or specialities. Some not as equally privy. Hence this topic to improve barbarian feats and place suggestions and gice knowledge to those that havent come across it yet. Either way this has been insightful and I thank those with constructive criticism and feedback for helping.
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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2018, 05:53:09 PM »
I’m not entirely certain barb15/sorc5 is what I would call an advantage over a straight barb.
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aprogressivist

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2018, 06:57:44 PM »
Also it's rather daft for people to make assumptions where there is oppurtunity for improvement. Regardless of upgrades there is laways something to improve or better.

This doesn't mean anything. "There is always something to improve" -- not arbitrarily. Strong things don't need to be further improved while other things languish. Weaker classes should be improved first before strong classes are boosted. This isn't "daft", this simply trying to keep an eye on balance.

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Regardless of enormous evidance not all people have the advantages of others or specialities. Some not as equally privy.

I'm not really clear on your point here. Are you trying to imply that your opinion is worth more than other people's because you explore sub-optimal scenarios? We shouldn't ignore evidence of what a pure Barb is capable of simply because some people choose not to minmax their characters.

I've seen high level Pure Barbs, they're hella strong now. A level 20 Barb with Reckless Rage can pop +10 Strength with one click.  No-one else can do this. They're terrifying and can challenge any class.

Also, to address an earlier and incorrect point by Craught, Spell Resistance from Mystic Rage is much better than what is obtained from a Greater Spell Resistance Potion. A Greater Spell Resistance Potion gives SR 21 (12 + 9 caster levels.) Mystic Rage gives a maximum of Spell Resistance 32. This is a huge difference.

You lose both of these things when you multiclass, so I don't see what's so jaw-dropping about the suggestion of staying pure class. It's not like pure Fighter, which is weaker than Rogue 5/Fighter 15 in virtually every way that matters; there are clear and evident advantages to Barb 20 now.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 07:04:01 PM by aprogressivist »
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2018, 06:59:16 PM »
I’m not entirely certain barb15/sorc5 is what I would call an advantage over a straight barb.

Maybe with true strike + IKD attached, self buffing Constitution so rage lasts longer.

Shield spell & mage armor for AC improvements could be gifted from party members but it could do that too.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 07:05:12 PM by zDark Shadowz »
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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2018, 03:52:28 PM »
If anything, barbarians are pretty powerful compared to fighters which are basically one of the most useless classes unless multi-classed with which is sad. Fighters should get more buffs.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2018, 04:22:35 PM »
Fighters have received new feats last go around, and EO says they're getting Greater Weapon Focus and Specialization next go around.

Anyway...that's probably off topic.

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Always_a_hero

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2018, 04:57:29 PM »
I'd wouldn't say pure fighter nor pure barbarian are anything like "useless" or "weak" mechanically. The worse problem with fighters is that they're boring to play because players always go for the same feats to optimize their way through.

I think we can agree lasting characters, or in other words those who are potent for lvl 20 material, are those who are fun to play, but also those who are fun to roleplay.

In a setting where magic is lacking, non-casting class have been given many options for backgrounds, so now (despite people's imagination) fighters seems more viable to last in a position where they'll contribute to the horror setting.

When it comes to barbarians, well... Things get a bit weird because... What are they supposed to fear again? There are motives which can be come up with for sure, but can you say barnarian are fitting for a setting such as Ravenloft? Using my experience as reference, the most recent barbarians I've seen were mostly attributed with the trait of savagery, which I guess can contribute to madness and fear for other players, but being a raising bad guy can be hard (RIP calibans).

Though most of this might seems useless to the conversation, I'd like to point out an answer to the barbarian's fear: it's very ally, the rage. A rage which consumes him/her to death in mighty battles... So RP wise it's making sense to me they'd die from rage.

So yeah, I guess they're alright. Just awkwardly standing with 6 charisma in the middle of a xenophobic place.
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Craugh

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2018, 06:17:01 PM »
Also, to address an earlier and incorrect point by Craught, Spell Resistance from Mystic Rage is much better than what is obtained from a Greater Spell Resistance Potion. A Greater Spell Resistance Potion gives SR 21 (12 + 9 caster levels.) Mystic Rage gives a maximum of Spell Resistance 32. This is a huge difference.

Note my use of the word "approximated." I never did find out the exact SR the greater variety of potion gave.

My point was that getting that SR has far too high an opportunity cost. 32 SR in particular requires investing all feats into barb feats, not to mention choosing half-orc or caliban. Is 32 SR useful? Sure. But the sheer utility of all the other feats swapped out for this, which can be approximated by a potion or precisely replicated by a lvl 20 druid/cleric spell, is too high a mechanical trade-off. An equivalent lvl 20 mage with Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration has 60% odds of beating it. Not bad, but a flip of the coin to resist a spell isn't something worth 8 feats plus a pile of other niche benefits tacked onto Rage. Let alone how dungeoning often takes time; rage lasts a relatively short time.

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You lose both of these things when you multiclass, so I don't see what's so jaw-dropping about the suggestion of staying pure class. It's not like pure Fighter, which is weaker than Rogue 5/Fighter 15 in virtually every way that matters; there are clear and evident advantages to Barb 20 now.

It's not jaw-dropping, but to my knowledge, it's only done for purely thematic reasons. No one should go pure barb for the mechanical power when Rogue 5/Barb 15 gives you the same 20 levels of Uncanny Dodge to negate flanking*, plus all the lovely Rogue Skills and Sneak Attacks in return for a small loss of AB and HP. Dramatically more utility and survivability is gained for a small loss of specialization as a heavy-hitting brute, the same as the dilemma between going pure Fighter or Rogue 5/Fighter 15.

*I'm not 100% certain Uncanny Dodge stacks when multiclassing in the classes that have it for the purpose of preventing flanking. I recall an informal confirmation on Discord, but there's nothing official on the wiki. If it's false, that at least is a good argument for going pure barb.

aprogressivist

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2018, 06:42:09 PM »
My point was that getting that SR has far too high an opportunity cost.

You make it sound like you pay 8 Feats to get SR 32.

You pay those Feats to get 7 other Rage effects and SR 32. The opportunity cost of Mystic Rage is one Feat. Not eight.


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It's not jaw-dropping, but to my knowledge, it's only done for purely thematic reasons. No one should go pure barb for the mechanical power when Rogue 5/Barb 15 gives you the same 20 levels of Uncanny Dodge to negate flanking*, plus all the lovely Rogue Skills and Sneak Attacks in return for a small loss of AB and HP. Dramatically more utility and survivability is gained for a small loss of specialization as a heavy-hitting brute, the same as the dilemma between going pure Fighter or Rogue 5/Fighter 15.

You're incorrect about pure Barbs losing Flanking. Barbarians get Uncanny Dodge.

The things that a Barbarian loses out for dipping 5 levels into Rogue is upgrading his DR from 3 to 5, Tireless Rage, another 2 Rage per day (in other words, 50% more Raging), and upgrading that Rage to a further +2 to STR/CON/Will while raging.

All the above are big, if not huge, opportunity costs -- especially when you take them in conjunction, since all those Rage effect boosts stack together.

Now I won't argue that Rogue 5/Barbarian 15 is bad -- any Rogue dip gets UMD so by definition it's good. But there's no comparing pure Barbarian to pure Fighter. It's an excellent class.

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*I'm not 100% certain Uncanny Dodge stacks when multiclassing in the classes that have it for the purpose of preventing flanking. I recall an informal confirmation on Discord, but there's nothing official on the wiki. If it's false, that at least is a good argument for going pure barb.

Pure Barbs get Uncanny Dodge and immunity to flanking. That's why pure Barbs are so good now. You get a level 20 melee frontliner who can tank in places where mobs have sneak attack.

So: in PvE, Barbarians have an unique niche and remain a hard-hitting melee frontliner. In PvP, they have access to potentially instant +10 Strength that will make them terrifying in any up-close encounter and SR 32 which is on par with monks or level 20 spellcaster Spell Resistance (and again, they don't need to spend 6 seconds casting to activate these powers -- they activate with one Rage click). They are the PvP equivalent of high noon gunslingers, they go from standing to killing you in the space of one move.

Barbarians are not weak; they are an excellent class.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2018, 08:26:58 AM by aprogressivist »
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2018, 02:26:42 AM »
I'd just support anything that would keep your own rage from killing you.

+1 biggest drawback and biggest complaint I have about Barbs.

Ard

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2018, 05:34:22 AM »
Actually this part is also cool  and i don't find it as a big drawback !
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Edward

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2018, 07:41:42 AM »
Indeed, it can be used for RP, I was sure that's what the server was about?
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MAB77

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2018, 01:36:00 PM »
I'd just support anything that would keep your own rage from killing you.

+1 biggest drawback and biggest complaint I have about Barbs.

That is actually what I prefer about barbarians, they reach raw power by pushing their bodies to the extreme. Thematically and balance wise, it is very fitting that they may risk falling from sheer exhaustion. I even wish we had something similar for high level casters chain casting powerful spells too quickly.

(Casters, rest assured this wish of mine won't be granted. :mrgreen:)

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2018, 02:09:41 PM »
There is a form of it for casters already: Bear's Endurance.

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2018, 07:10:34 PM »
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.


Edward

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2018, 08:06:20 PM »
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.


Yes, the whole idea of the feat is a short burst of power and endurance not an unconquerable ability that won't kill you if not used thoughtfully. Meaning dying to your own rage is a very true to the class thing.
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PrimetheGrime

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2018, 01:34:50 AM »
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.


Yes, the whole idea of the feat is a short burst of power and endurance not an unconquerable ability that won't kill you if not used thoughtfully. Meaning dying to your own rage is a very true to the class thing.

It certainly is. Barbs embody the essence of victory or death

ViktorYouFool

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2018, 04:39:43 PM »
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.

This. I've played a Barb twice on this server and in both cases I had a tendency to avoid actually using my rage for this reason. The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.

I wouldn't care if rage could drop you to 0HP. The problem would come when you'd go down and be at -1, then a second later instantly corpse because your rage wore out. In the fight where you needed it most, Rage winds up being a liability as much as a benefit.

Edward

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2018, 05:46:09 PM »
Sheer exhaustion doesn't have to bleeding out, though. As I said, I'd be happy with something that kept my rage from killing me. I'd drop a feat on something that drops me to 0 HP and knocks me out, because exhaustion, sure. But suddenly dropping to -8? I've died more from my own rage than anything else.

This. I've played a Barb twice on this server and in both cases I had a tendency to avoid actually using my rage for this reason. The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.

I wouldn't care if rage could drop you to 0HP. The problem would come when you'd go down and be at -1, then a second later instantly corpse because your rage wore out. In the fight where you needed it most, Rage winds up being a liability as much as a benefit.

That's the point of the ability, it's a risk, victory or death ability.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2018, 07:46:37 PM »
I don't think it should be characterized as a barbarian's rage kills her. She would already have been dead if not for the rage.

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The situation where I actually needed rage was the situation where rage was most likely to kill me.

Why? Because you were likely to die without the rage? That's why you "needed" it. The rage, however, gave you a fighting chance. If you win, you patch up and live to fight another day. But without raging, you are probably going to lose. So you improve your chance of winning  at the cost of failing hard if you lose.

Many feats are risky gambles, such as Power Attack. If in PA mode you miss repeatedly when you would have hit in normal mode, you could feel that PA likewise "killed" you.  But you were aware when you chose to shift into PA mode that this was a possible outcome. You were hoping, however, the dice gods would reward you with hits that caused extra damage.

It's frustrating when the gamble doesn't work out and the PC loses precious recovery attempts when Con drops. But the barbarian who gambles successfully may entirely avoid recovery checks.

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LivingWasteland

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2018, 08:20:42 AM »
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.

But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.


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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2018, 09:38:31 AM »
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.

But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.

You are looking at this rather incorrectly.  Let us look at it properly, and actually with logic.

Scenario 1.  Barbarian is at full hit points.  Activates Rage.  They take no damage during the fight, rage wears off.  They are tired, but they don't end up in a pool of blood.

Scenario 2.  Barbarian is at full hit points.  Activates rage.  They take some damage during the fight, rage wears off.  They are more hurt when the adrenaline wears off, and are tired, but they pushed themselves beyond their sensible limits.

Scenario 3.  Barbarian is at or not at full hit points.  Maybe they've taken a lot of damage already.  They activate rage, and proceed to take even more damage.  Like a person fighting on adrenaline with mortal wounds, they continue on, either until they take more damage than even they can stand, or until the adrenaline - and the rage - wears off.  As happens in real life, the individual -then- collapses into a pool of their own blood, as per your description, because they've taken mortal wounds that they would have otherwise ignored.  At that point its a last ditch effort.  Giving them a way to simply ignore that frankly either cheapens barbarian or smacks of an exploit to get around the only flaw of the single most powerful single click instant action ability in the game that provides more instant apply buffs than any other ability.

TL:DR - sudden exhaustion doesn't leave you in a pool of blood unless you'd actually be dead from injuries sustained.  In which case it does.

Arawn

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2018, 09:58:59 AM »
Here is the 3.5 text of Rage:

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Rage (Ex)
A barbarian can fly into a rage a certain number of times per day. In a rage, a barbarian temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but he takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While raging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

A barbarian can fly into a rage only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use his rage ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level). Entering a rage takes no time itself, but a barbarian can do it only during his action, not in response to someone else’s action.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2018, 10:25:45 AM »

TL:DR - sudden exhaustion doesn't leave you in a pool of blood unless you'd actually be dead from injuries sustained.  In which case it does.

^ This. If it was the exhaustion/your own rage killing you, then you would die every time you used Barbarian Rage.

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Re: Improving Barbarian Class Feats
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2018, 10:29:20 AM »
Again, sudden exhaustion does not leave one laying in a pool of their own blood bleeding out.

But this is PotM. Leave your logic at the door, and strap on your helmet because nothing makes sense anymore.

I think that it actually could leave them that way, in a round about way. It wasn't the rage that killed them it was the other injuries, the rage just kept them alive artificially. And speaking from a bit of a logical perspective this at least does make sense to me. There are plenty of tales of extreme athletes pushing themselves to and past the point of death and would have died without modern medical intervention. I see this in a similar way. You can amp yourself up so much that you ignore normal physiologic mechanisms. Were you not raging you would be dead. When you stop raging you now get that very special present because you were ignoring all the things happening to your body for that period of time.

Edit: See also - what Nem and Iridni mentioned before me.