Revisiting Tridents

[DM Erebus]

Hello!
I'd like the Dev Team to take another look at Tridents, because as they stand they are very, very bad.

A spear is a Simple weapon that does 1d8 damage, has a crit range of 20 and multiplier x3 and weighs 3lbs.

Tridents are Martial weapons that do 1d8 damage, have a crit range of 20, multiplier x2 and weighs 5lbs.

This tridents are more restricted, heavier and less effective than spears.

Now, having these items in the game world for players to use out of the sheer joy of it is fine, but if we're going to have them, shouldn't they be at least as competitive as a spear, or ideally slightly more effective, as they are heavier and more restricted.

Tridents could have their damage increased to 1d10 (they are Large, afterall), or their crit brought to 19-20 x3, slightly better than the spear.

[Philos]

Could also consider giving them imp disarm as they are also effective trapping weapons.

[DM Erebus]

Could also consider giving them imp disarm as they are also effective trapping weapons.

 

[zDark Shadowz]

It's almost as if it's a sub-par gladiatorial weapon.

I can't find many instances of armies / militia being outfitted with tridents for proper wars or any benefits to using a trident.

Apparently it was used in Ancient Rome with a net as a parody of fishing. Not all weapons are going to be as effective as another.

Its primary use would be defending against close combat weapons that would be stuck between the tips, going by the dangpa, as Koreans are the only people I can find that actually used tridents for warfare.

For this, as a large category weapon by default, it should? already benefit from a significantly increased AB using Improved Disarm against smaller (close combat) weapons.

It's a great weapon if your family came from a fishing background, or a gladiatorial one, as a plot device it's better than 'I have a spear', but the extra tips were also designed so that the tridents wouldn't get stuck inside someone, as compared to a spear, and it requires training to use the trident effectively. I think the default stats are pretty accurate.

[Always_a_hero]

(Was writing that message then zDark Shadow added a post so sorry of it doesn't follow that argument)

I'd like to put in that some weapon properties were change on Ravenloft, such as the greatsword which does 1d12 instead of 2d6 or flails which have 19-20 crit range instead of 20, for those who are unaware.

As for comparing a spear with the trident, it would come back to comparing what martial weapons offer over simple, which resumes to -either- higher damage die, increase crit multiplier or bigger crit range, along lighter weight.
 
Currently, as said prior, the trident properties are :

Tridents are Martial weapons that do 1d8 damage, have a crit range of 20, multiplier x2 and weighs 5lbs.

However, though I'm not certain, the spear and trident size would be modified to medium as they are usable in one hand. Boosting the damage to 1d10 would then make it stronger than a longsword and almost as strong as a karana/bastard sword, which are exotic.

My suggestion would then be to make the trident x3, as increasing the crit range to 19-20 and lowering the weight to 4 pds would only make it a cousin of the longsword.

I would also support the disarm suggestion. On that note, could all weapons giving disarm as a feat be updated to give improved disarm, if that's not already a thing?

[PlatointheCave]

Realism exists to facilitate immersion and RP. I don't think Cosmic's suggested changes would undermine that and as stands the use of a trident isn't just sub-par; it's really punitive. I don't think keeping tridents this poor serves immersion or RP, really. As long as they're a niche weapon we wont see them widely but we will see them some of the time, and that's pretty dope.

I agree with Cosmic's proposed changes.

[Iridni Ren]

Because of the shape of the trident, it seems to me inherently inferior to a spear in most cases.

It is three times as likely to be blocked by a shield, and three times less likely to slide between armor plates.

Assuming it does strike home, it has difficulty penetrating very deeply for the same reasons. One would have to be very strong indeed to thrust a trident all the way through a foe. And yet it would weigh more because of having three points instead of only one.

In general I agree with zDark Shadowz:

I think the default stats are pretty accurate.

Tridents were used for fishing because the three points offset the refraction caused by water and under circumstances (downward thrusting) in which the extra weight would be an advantage, rather than a disadvantage. They seem to me a flavor weapon and one that perhaps could be boosted via the loot tables, but not anything that by default would be effective.

[LivingWasteland]

Spear: Ow, I got stabbed!

Trident: Ow, I got stabbed three times!

+1 on the slight damage boost.

[Iridni Ren]

Ouch, I got stabbed 14 times!

[LivingWasteland]

I realize you're being pedantic, but I feel the overwhelming urge to point this out. A rake was never weaponized, and is to be swung. A trident is a thrusting weapon.

[Iridni Ren]

The laws of physics remain the same.

With a trident, the force is divided on three points, rather than one. So even though you are "stabbed" three times, each wound will have only one third the force behind it as if you were stabbed with a single point.

[Knight of Rhodes]

Iridni. Not the same. 

A rake a weapon is not. 

I support a damage buff to the trident, because right now, it's redundant and obviously not picked.

[LivingWasteland]

I'd rather be stabbed once as opposed to three times. Since everyone screams realism, take away the healing magic and do you realize how much harder a trident wound(s) would be to tend to than a spear wound?

[King Pickle]

I'd rather take a trident to my chest than a spear.
It's going to be harder to push in deep past all the ribs (and even harder to pull out). This all multiplies with thick clothing, leather, armor... So it makes sense it has less critical damage.

As for the gameplay balance and people not using tridents, I think it comes down to what kind of spears and tridents there are in loot.

[Fungal Artillery]

Realism aside, 19-20/x3 criticals on any weapon would make it overwhelmingly one of the best weapons available, in the same vein as Scythe is overpowered with its x4 modifier.

19-20/x3 means it has the crit range of a longsword AND the multiplier of a battleaxe. With the base damage of 1d8, this would make it the best one handed melee weapon available.

A simple x3 crit modifier without lowered crit range like the spear or axes would be enough, if you're looking to boost the weapon's crit capability.

-----------

On the subject of realism. We have been taught by hollywood that it's a good idea to thrust something through your target until 90% of your weapon sticks from the other side. The truth of the matter however is that "overpenetration" was a very real concern that you can often see being adressed in weapon design of the highly penetrative weapons of the medieval period like the spear or lance. When killing humans, the weapon needs to penetrate only so much to injure organs, thrash bones and veins and cause bleeding out. What's very unfortunate for you is if your main weapon gets stuck in your opponent in the middle of battle and you have to draw your secondary, like a sword. Or your dagger.

With a brief glance to the wikipedia, it seems to me that the trident had been popular only in times and places of light armor, which somewhat points to that it's not very effective as soon as heavier armor is introduced, which can be said of many weapons tbh. It seemed to be used in ancient Rome, Greece, but also in parts of Asia, like India. Asian armor was never as heavy as European was and that was partly because of metal quality IIRC. Because of an entirely different enviroment in regards to armor, Eastern weapons tend to be slashing.

Another thing to take in to account in weapons is that not everything was a battlefield weapon. Many designs were for civilian use. Swords were popular because of their ease of carry compared to say an axe.

As a polearm the trident leans toward being a weapon of war, but it doesn't seem to me like it was ever that popular, while the spear very much was.

[Danuvis]

Realism is a moot point in a video game that defies it for the most part, and if you really want to go there you'd have to relook at a fair few of the current weapons that are far more frequently used, which would REALISTICALLY be worse mechanically according to logic and history, especially when something like plate armour is worn by most.

Come on, people, are you really making a case based on things like 'each wound will have only one third the force behind it as if you were stabbed with a single point," when there's common magic employed that increases one's strength tenfold beyond natural human capacity.

Tridents are bad and should be buffed. /thread

[BraveSirRobin]

Ouch, I got stabbed 14 times!

Yes, a rake has many bits, but too many bits to be remotely practical. Let's also be honest, a Trident was also never practical. But if you're going to make comparisons, do so with their direct equivalents.



Like the humble pitchfork. Pitchforks aren't really scary, either, and they're wielded by peasants, and have been over the years as a tool of necessity. They can be pointy, but not especially so. Yet still, many men have been slain by a pitchfork. A pitchfork, however, still isn't a Trident.



Tridents, in almost all depictions, are just spears with extra bits that have two extra prongs that curve inwards, then point slightly outwards, with the focus being the center-most point.



However, the two are vastly similar. One could argue, on the other hand, Tridents by their nature should simply be made a Simple Weapon, and their stats left alone. They're not very practical, they resemble a peasant's pitchfork more than anything, and pitchforks aren't as good at getting those critical bits as Spears are. So being a version of a spear that does 1d8 and 18-20 x2 instead of 1d8 3x would mean they could more frequently hit sensitive bits, but without doing it quite as well as a spear, when it finds it's point, because it's better designed and easier to use. There's no reason a Trident would be as light as a spear, because it has three times as many pointy metal bits. Make them two-handed if they're already not. That balances it out quite nicely, as you'd have to be a trident/pitchfork weaponsmaster with a two-handed 1d8 18-20 x2 weapon to actually invest in, and if powerbuilding was a concern, the rapier does the job better, one-handed. However, for people who want reasonable flavor, this still gives a trident it's place beside the spear.

The reason it would never be reasonably one-handed is because a Trident is unwieldy as all get-out, and has never been militarily used with one hand. A spear has. Before you say Roman Gladiators did X, that was a gimmick, and that's one instance in what was essentially a bloody theatre. For show, not for it's practicality. The net was often tossed and used to tangle, then the Trident would be used with both hands.

If you were going to give them Improved Disarm, then Whips need it across the board, too. Otherwise, it'd be silly.

[Edward]

Good thing no one actually uses a trident.

[Daboomer]

Dungeons and dragons is not some realistic game why tridents can't be the same as Spears is beyond me. It is not like any of the oversized weapons longswords waved around with One hand and so on makes much Sense to begin with. Just make tridents the same as Spears or give them something else for fun.

[APorg]

Part of the issue is that Spears were boosted here. They are meant to be two-handed weapons but instead are one-handed weapons. ( https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Spear )

This is power creep; one thing was boosted so that it became the best Simple Weapon in the game, and now we're seeing suggestions to boost a comparable weapon to become the best Martial Weapon in the game.

[Iridni Ren]

This is power creep; one thing was boosted so that it became the best Simple Weapon in the game, and now we're seeing suggestions to boost a comparable weapon to become the best Martial Weapon in the game.

Exactly.

My point in mentioning the rake was to dispute the idea that "more points means more damage." It does not.

BSR brought up pitchforks.

Fair enough: Suppose someone was going to stab you in your sleep. Which would anyone here rather this someone have between a kitchen fork and an ice pick?

There is no reason to make the basic trident stronger. In the loot tables special tridents could be added that have extra enhancements that make them better than basic spears. But an ordinary trident is going to be inferior to an ordinary spear.

As was pointed (!) out earlier, tridents weren't adopted by primitive armies for a reason. They're not as good.

[APorg]

I don't mean to suggest that there is no argument for re-balancing these weapons. I do mean to say that any balance argument that relies on making one weapon better than another that has been boosted is an argument that leads towards power creep.

IMO, Spears are too strong -- they are Simple weapons that have the same damage and crit range/multiplier as Warhammers, but Warhammers are Martial; the only difference is the damage type they deal (relevant in PvE at early levels where a lot of undead are resistant to piercing, but far less of an issue at higher levels and in PvP, where Resistance to Piercing isn't much harder to acquire than Resistance to Bludgeoning) -- and that's why Tridents look weak in comparison. So I don't think the solution is to make Tridents even stronger than Spears. IMO the solution is to lower the Crit modifier of Spears to x2 and raise the Trident's to x3. That would be the most consistent way of making Tridents relevant without resorting to power creep.

[Iridni Ren]

I have no opinion about adjusting spears.

But tridents should not have a greater critical multiplier than spears because it is so much easier to get a deep wound from a spear than a trident. Even something like hide armor is going to have a good chance of stopping a trident because of the physics involved and the resulting fraction of force applied at each point.

Here is a man jabbing a defenseless cow with a pitchfork. It's in spoiler so those who don't want to don't have to look.

Spoiler: show

But note that he never even breaks the skin. Could he if he had really tried? Perhaps, but it requires multiple times the force that a spear would have required.

If people want to use tridents as a novelty item, add a Trident of Poseidon to the loot table with some kind of benefits that make them worthwhile.

I don't know for a fact, but I suspect one of the reasons they were used in gladiatorial combat was they led to longer fights as they made finishing the opponent more difficult.

[zDark Shadowz]

I guess the arguments above are just differing ideas of perceived realism and wanting to have all weapons perfectly balanced with equivalents. Comparing a light flail to a morningstar, for example, why would you want to use a light flail when a morningstar does the same damage and provides a bludgeoning + piercing combo?

Coincidentally, like a trident, the light flail requires a martial proficiency and originated from a tool, and the morningstar, like the spear, only requires simple proficiency. I know light hammers could use some love too in comparison to all other light weapon options.

This could keep going around in circles all day lol. You'd have to assess all weapons, work out a table comparing equivalent damage, damage types, critical range, multipliers, and whether it was meant for finesse, two hands or one hand.

Out of curiosity as it was referenced above, why was the greatsword changed from 2d6 to 1d12 anyway? They both average 7 points, just the latter can roll a 1 and has a better chance at hitting a 12. That's a really minute, nearly insignificant difference. It's an example of a change being made for more 'wild' damage rolls that average the same over time, so has no real power creep implications.

[HM01]

perceived realism

*casts Evard's Black Tentacles*