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Author Topic: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting  (Read 1529 times)

Mailbox-2100

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2018, 06:15:11 AM »
 I know this isn't directly about this thread- but PvP in general. The reason PvP will always be the way it is, is because its high risk, low reward. You hazard to lose potentially years of investment trying to offer any plot, story, or antagonism. Not to mention it happens so seldom due to the aforementioned, whenever it does, PCs swarm like piranha toward said content. Then, to top it off, -if- you go the route of aggressor, on one hand, its poor form to corspehide someone, but the reverse will almost always be true for you. So its like a catch-22. You can be an OOC badguy for aggrieving potential recipients of your 'plot', or be the IC badguy and begin a bodyfarm. Its just a bad system, that encourages bad experiences between players. I think if systems were implemented, that took these factors into consideration, topics like these would be far less common- as people with hefty mechanical advantages might use their power over others, to instead enhance their gothic-horror experience rather than to win (or annoy). Just because you aren't killing people really, doesn't mean they're not dying inside, invalidated, by sheer fact that whoever they are against are too scared (or unwilling, etc) to actually engage in any manner other than sure-fire. Or worse! Never even try.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 06:17:33 AM by Mailbox-2100 »

sotbiii

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2018, 05:04:11 PM »
With out taking any sides on whether spotting should or should not be made easier, wouldn't it be possible to implement following feat:

Finger Pointing:
Player clicks on a target and the PC points a finger at it. The targets hide skill is reduced by 1d6 + pointers charisma modifier for x amount of time.

?

Legion XXI

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2018, 05:37:59 PM »
One thing I have seen a server do is allow a Player Tool be used as a "Call out" command, where the PC calls out an enemy, it forced them to say something out loud (so they couldn't silently screw people over) and the targeted person gets a hide/ms debuff of like 25 for a single round to give other people a better chance of spotting them that round, and it had a cooldown on it of like 30 seconds so you can't spam it.  Not sure how viable that would be here, or if we'd even want to add it, but it was neat in the environment of that other server.

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2018, 07:59:39 PM »
One thing I have seen a server do is allow a Player Tool be used as a "Call out" command, where the PC calls out an enemy, it forced them to say something out loud (so they couldn't silently screw people over) and the targeted person gets a hide/ms debuff of like 25 for a single round to give other people a better chance of spotting them that round, and it had a cooldown on it of like 30 seconds so you can't spam it.  Not sure how viable that would be here, or if we'd even want to add it, but it was neat in the environment of that other server.

A longer cool down would be cool because as they would stay seen untill finding concealment again. Would be great having only available to a specific class however because I can see this being abused in someway.

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2018, 10:03:55 PM »
NWN is like a comic book, its art helps frame a shared vision of what is going on, but it still does require some theatre of the mind to paint in finer details. If you lack an imagination that explains how someone is in close proximity but you have not noticed them, I would say you are not trying to and based on some stealth balance rhetoric you might not want to. Much like imagining facial expressions described by roleplayed emotes, or the tone of voice inferred by a character's dialgoue you are not being given every specific minute detail your character is experiencing as you play them, you must imagine some of them. You're just picking and choosing when to use your imagination if stealth gets you riled up because its not believable. (and the stealth that works requires magic items and magic spells, you know, magic)

Of course, you are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one. I know that sounds like a platitude and it will fall on some deaf ears but you are not the enemy of the player doing the stealthing, you are his partner in roleplay. It would do much to server morale and fun if you would take the opportunity to help "sell" the believably of the scene by having your character make remarks about "how supernaturally the shadows cling to you, no wonder I did not notice you there" etc. Playing along is what roleplay is all about, every character has strengths, and every player enjoys seeing their character's most accomplished abilities come into play from time to time. It does not hurt anything to assist the other player in portraying their strengths when they come into play. A character that is sneaking past a group on this server has been built since day one to be able to achieve such a feat. Roll with the scene, if you are the one character that has spotted the skulking knave then confront them and demand they speak for their actions. Surely by doing so, the onus is now on the stealthed player to drop stealth and roleplay a dismay at having been spotted and thus allowing the others to get involved. This takes trust, and a focus on the scene first and foremost. Both of these attributes are in increasingly short supply on PotM. Players are only hurting their self by playing this way, there is a better way for all but you must dedicate to it.

But even if you just cannot bring yourself to approach such an aspect of the game such as stealth with a cooperative mindset, you still are being a spoilsport if you would rather focus on your inability to imagine why its even possible for them to do it rather than to play along. Its the opposite of cheesing to stealth that well, its completely backed up by the game.

+1

I agree so much with many of these points.

People who are driven primarily by PvP considerations and the desire for mechanical advantage really are missing out on what can be accomplished through looking for collaboration and enhancing the experience of others as well as themselves.

The game and its engine are limited; our imaginations aren't.

Yes, but there are WYSIWYG elements to everything. Thus why it's currently treated the way it is. A stealther will cry exploit if you stand in a doorway that won't permit them to walk past you, due to boundary boxes, because they could crawl on the roof, or get through a window, or something. Similarly speaking, there was a thread not too long ago that wanted to add a way to silently bypass doors in the manner the Dead Spirit/Ghost state could, to represent silently opening and closing a door, wherein the argument was essentially, 'Your character could listen in on that room, and do something a thousand ways.' despite the fact the room may have no windows, and have stone structure on the floor, ceiling, and walls. I believe the term is colloquially known as 'Cheesing.' -- Similarly, people consider throwing tacks on the ground to be a manner of exploiting, even if you aren't utilizing the combat log info as an IC way of detecting them, but because it alerts the player, and causes unavoidable damage if they want to pursue you.

People will make an argument to justify their means or merit of their conversation in just about every instance, I don't believe saying, 'A lack of imagination,' is an adequate rebuttal.

Now, that aside, if there was a feat that could add hide/move debuffs as suggested above by both sotbii and Legion XXI, I think that will perform a similar function as to what I've described here. Even if it's just for one round (6 seconds), indicated said person has been spotted. If you wanted it to work precisely like what I suggested, you could give it a ridiculous negative modifier for one round, say, -50 or -60, or even if you wanted to flat-out make it a means to call someone out, a -80. If you wanted it to just be a weird way to buff slightly less equipped spotters, then a -20 or something would probably help. Make it so it has to cool down, and can only be used once every turn (one minute) which would still allow HiPSters to do their in and out stuff, and allow the spotting character to reaffirm their position once every minute.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2018, 11:03:45 PM »
Quote
People will make an argument to justify their means or merit of their conversation in just about every instance, I don't believe saying, 'A lack of imagination,' is an adequate rebuttal.

That wasn't the entire post :D

I said I agreed with "so many of these points." Including this:

Quote
[Y]ou are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one.

I'm not going to name names, but I can think of two players right off the top of my head who most everyone on the server would say are/were great RPers and great to play with. (One no longer "plays.")

I've interacted with both in what were ICly adverarial relationships. But in both cases, these players and I were sending Tells to one another and cooperating to create the scene. I trusted both of those players that our mutual goal (whatever our adversarial relationship IC) was to be creative and have fun.

It's roleplay, in which any competition should not be about ganking the other PC...but seeing who can be the most imaginative, clever, and awe-inspiring as a storyteller/character creator. (Note well: No matter how great a star you are, if your supporting cast is terrible, the story is going to be pretty lame. Trying not to steal every scene, therefore, is in a player's own best interest.)

Sometime the creativity will be in coming up with imaginative ways to "win." Perhaps you are the best stealther on the server. Or you set some traps once and used them to incredible advantages. Or you came through with an awesome critical right when you were down to your last two hit points.

All of this expands, however, outside the scope of the topic.

To rein it in, I'll use an example that happened tonight in game. A PC was on the caravan with approximately six other PCs and stealthing. The rest of us assumed he'd missed the return trip. After we departed the caravan, however, he listened in on a significant conversation that occurred right at the caravan exit. At a crucial moment he revealed himself and conflict occurred.

It would be easy to say that this was just "unrealistic." How could he hide undetected in a crowded caravan with people actually looking around wondering where was. Perhaps he did this!



What I think CS's point was (and what I agree with) is that, rather than get offended at the PC's ability to stealth right under my PC's nose, "fantastical stealthing" is an element of the game--much like other fantastic elements. If it's become unbalanced, then perhaps it needs adjusting. But the limits of the game being as they are, we shouldn't all be looking for any excuse to cry "exploit."

(When I enter a doorway and am worried about being followed, you'd better believe I stand in it until I can get the door shut and preferably locked! If that's an exploit, it's news to me.)

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2018, 11:43:59 PM »
To rein it in, I'll use an example that happened tonight in game. A PC was on the caravan with approximately six other PCs and stealthing. The rest of us assumed he'd missed the return trip. After we departed the caravan, however, he listened in on a significant conversation that occurred right at the caravan exit. At a crucial moment he revealed himself and conflict occurred.

It would be easy to say that this was just "unrealistic." How could he hide undetected in a crowded caravan with people actually looking around wondering where was. Perhaps he did this!



What I think CS's point was (and what I agree with) is that, rather than get offended at the PC's ability to stealth right under my PC's nose, "fantastical stealthing" is an element of the game--much like other fantastic elements. If it's become unbalanced, then perhaps it needs adjusting. But the limits of the game being as they are, we shouldn't all be looking for any excuse to cry "exploit."

(When I enter a doorway and am worried about being followed, you'd better believe I stand in it until I can get the door shut and preferably locked! If that's an exploit, it's news to me.)

Under, over, around the caravan are possible...Or maybe there's just a little more room behind those curtains than one might think!


dark_majico

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2018, 06:38:23 AM »
I don't personally believe we have a problem that needs to be fixed, but in general I would advise against any suggestion of complicated work-around jerry rigged by players, we aren't game designers, and it's easy to poke around and cause problems, we have a spot mechanic, we have gear that increases spot and listen, and you can add skill points and feats to increase it. It's not sexy to add two skill points to listen on level up I know, but that's what its for at the end of the day, if you don't want to put the skill points in, then you won't be much of a spotter, but you know that's fine you don't have to be mechanically good at everything all the time.
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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2018, 09:50:10 PM »
Quote
People will make an argument to justify their means or merit of their conversation in just about every instance, I don't believe saying, 'A lack of imagination,' is an adequate rebuttal.

That wasn't the entire post :D

I said I agreed with "so many of these points." Including this:

Quote
[Y]ou are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one.

I'm not going to name names, but I can think of two players right off the top of my head who most everyone on the server would say are/were great RPers and great to play with. (One no longer "plays.")

I've interacted with both in what were ICly adverarial relationships. But in both cases, these players and I were sending Tells to one another and cooperating to create the scene. I trusted both of those players that our mutual goal (whatever our adversarial relationship IC) was to be creative and have fun.

It's roleplay, in which any competition should not be about ganking the other PC...but seeing who can be the most imaginative, clever, and awe-inspiring as a storyteller/character creator. (Note well: No matter how great a star you are, if your supporting cast is terrible, the story is going to be pretty lame. Trying not to steal every scene, therefore, is in a player's own best interest.)

Sometime the creativity will be in coming up with imaginative ways to "win." Perhaps you are the best stealther on the server. Or you set some traps once and used them to incredible advantages. Or you came through with an awesome critical right when you were down to your last two hit points.

All of this expands, however, outside the scope of the topic.

To rein it in, I'll use an example that happened tonight in game. A PC was on the caravan with approximately six other PCs and stealthing. The rest of us assumed he'd missed the return trip. After we departed the caravan, however, he listened in on a significant conversation that occurred right at the caravan exit. At a crucial moment he revealed himself and conflict occurred.

It would be easy to say that this was just "unrealistic." How could he hide undetected in a crowded caravan with people actually looking around wondering where was. Perhaps he did this!



What I think CS's point was (and what I agree with) is that, rather than get offended at the PC's ability to stealth right under my PC's nose, "fantastical stealthing" is an element of the game--much like other fantastic elements. If it's become unbalanced, then perhaps it needs adjusting. But the limits of the game being as they are, we shouldn't all be looking for any excuse to cry "exploit."

(When I enter a doorway and am worried about being followed, you'd better believe I stand in it until I can get the door shut and preferably locked! If that's an exploit, it's news to me.)

Iím not sure how this went from a discussion about two PCís being near each other, one is capable of spotting a stealthed character (and even attacking them) and the other character, due to current limitations of the game engine, cannot see nor participate in the conflict unfolding unless the stealthed character were to attack back, to a discussion about adversarial views towards Stealthed PCís and insinuating I hold one view or the other, and then making condescending judgments about what you believe my view is. It was a suggestion for a feat to create a more cohesive experience between party members and allow spot characters to be a little more valuable, and for more common sense interactions to take place.


This isnít really a discussion about adversarial viewpoints, how players should act view or cooperate, it isnít a discussion regarding the places stealthed characters can choose to hide in. This is a discussion about the merits of such a feat, the potential implementation (Which DM Arawn has already stated the feat as suggested cannot be implemented due to game engine limitations) and now the discussion has moved to the suggestions of Sotbii and Legion XXI. If you want to comment on the balance or roleplay implementation of the feat as these two have suggested, awesome. If not, thereís no point in making a long winded post correcting anyoneís perspective, their state of mind when cooperating or not cooperating with other stealthy characters, or what have you. Thatís how these threads always derail into something off-topic.