"But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"

[Iridni Ren]

Can the aggressiveness of the waif AI in Port either be turned down or they be called something besides waifs?

A waif (from the Old French guaif, "stray beast")[1] is a living creature removed, by hardship, loss or other helpless circumstance, from its original surroundings. The most common usage of the word is to designate a homeless, forsaken or orphaned child, or someone whose appearance is evocative of the same.

As such, the term is similar to a ragamuffin or street urchin, although the main distinction is volitional: a runaway youth might live on the streets, but would not properly be called a waif as the departure from one's home was an exercise of free will.

Scenario: Iridni was pursued by a growing number of these children, despite killing hordes of sewer caliban in the meantime. She likely had six on her when she went into the Workers' Lodge...where one of them followed her!

Inside, she dispatched a gang of arcanists and smugglers...and the waif as well because of an unavoidable AOO.

I don't get their motivation. It would seem reasonable if an adult "Fagen" type were directing them, but many creature AIs seem to "know" to run from high levels. Shouldn't waifs be more discerning of a foe's strength than are sewer rats?

They don't seem to serve any useful purpose because they don't make Port any more dangerous at night than if they didn't exist. Wouldn't some of the worse baddies (e.g., ax murderers) in Port attack stray children?

If waifs must persist, can they at least flee when their stronger "allies" are dispatched? Or can they have a name that implies willful criminality, instead of an abandoned child?

[Dumas]

It was always struck me as odd that there are literally children enemies we are encouraged to kill. I mean, they’re bloodthirsty 8-15 year olds? They sound like the could be even younger, based on voice sets.

They only seem to add aggravation for players of characters who would never kill children, no matter what, and the only reason they do die is because players can’t toggle subdue mode fast enough

[Philos]

Perhaps some thought could be given to tweaking their morale to make them flee quicker when you start dropping mobsters and gang leaders?

[Mailbox-2100]

  I thought they -were- already more cowardly, as in the past I recall them typically running from me more often than not.
Perhaps they view Iridni as the mother they never had, and thus seek to punish her for the life they were denied. You see- perhaps   you are not giving the ai enough  credit? With deep seeded psychological recognition and patterns able to develop naturally and systemically.

  I, too, have often roleplayed not  killing these waifs. As, more often than not, they are no real threat to me, and the idea is they are vengeful for killing their providers and so on, and so forth- but I -have- also roleplayed tucking these children in for the night- with ruthless subdual dominion. Goodnight, little angel, sleep tight. And if they can't read after, its not like they could before!

[King Pickle]

I dunno, there are murderous 10 year olds in not so nice places of our world, why not in Ravenloft?

That said, the AI of port enemies could be better.
Why are they all homicidal maniacs and attack you regardless of your age, gender, race, social status, nationality and other stuff?

They could be more like animals that *pose menacingly* if you linger around etc. We could use OCR, influence or some other variable to judge if they attack or not.  And hey, how come there are no pick pocket npcs? Other servers have them.

[APorg]

I kind of also feel that the AI's aggressive behaviour is more like killbots than criminals; it's one thing for a gang of thugs to attack a single low to medium level PC out on their own, but when you have a high level party with adventurers wearing enchanted platemail and wielding magical swords, surely all but the toughest Caliban Gangleader would turn tail and flee.

Also, IMO a lot of the criminal stalker types ought to make better use of Stealth. So far I think only the Smuggler Scout/Watchman/Assassins do?

[zDark Shadowz]

@subdual, loot pockets, ignore.

[PlatointheCave]

The criminals in Pprt-a-Lucine are a direct result of the exploitative treatment of the common people. Child or adult, crime is so widespread because the common people are given few options. In desperation, many turn to crime and become the hardened criminals you encounter there at night. They're not some special breed of monster human that chooses to harm their fellow man for no reason; they've been neglected by an apathetic elite and have become the outlaws they are today.

Does this make your character uneasy? Good. It's supposed to. That's a chunk of the urban poor you're killing and that fact is supposed to underline just how messed up Dementlieu is. Yes, many have become 'evil' people but they've still ended up there because they're at the bottom and no one will let them up.

I am for making most criminals flee much sooner in the face of overwhelming odds, but subdual mode exists for a reason.

Maybe if you're a high-level cleric of a Good god and you know desperate people will try to kill you if you walk the streets at night, don't go? Or pop an invisibility potion?

[Iridni Ren]

They're not some special breed of monster human that chooses to harm their fellow man for no reason; they've been neglected by an apathetic elite and have become the outlaws they are today....Maybe if you're a high-level cleric of a Good god and you know desperate people will try to kill you if you walk the streets at night, don't go? Or pop an invisibility potion?

Nice try at an explanation for why game limitations result in such bizarre, unrealistic behavior, but a couple of points:

1. The behavior could be justified by saying Dementlieu is as the name implies, full of demented people who don't really behave in rational ways. Or the people aren't real as some have argued about those in the Dread Realms anyway--that they are all simulacra / automatons. That does not comport, however, with your 21st century view of crime and its causes, and it certainly lessens the moral dilemma.

2. If, on the other hand, the behavior is a rational reaction to their treatment by a "neglectful and apathetic elite," then they should also respond rationally to good treatment. Cause and effect should work both ways. A cleric, for example, who goes around during the day in the same area giving coins to beggars (which Iridni does) should be recognized over time as a friend. Likewise, the urchins during the day who she would be good to should not transform with the falling of night into "waifs"who turn on her. (The words denoting each should be switched around, as my quotation above shows.) 

IRL, there are people who can pass through bad neighborhoods unharmed because of being known and even protected in these areas for the good work and help they do. (Sort of a reverse OCR!)

Once in a while, some particularly bad egg may attack or even kill such a person, but she would not be universally reviled.  Mailbox wrote:

the idea is they are vengeful for killing their providers and so on

If so, then someone who provided them with food and gold would likewise earn their loyalty, or at least not their suicidal wrath.

In any case, I don't intend this to be a complex discussion of the causes of criminal or even homicidal behavior.

Children are generally easily scared and run from danger. These NPCs don't behave like "waifs." Either the name or the behavior needs to be changed.

[DM Erebus]

This is not real life.

Ravenloft is a setting that is a pastiche of gothic horror and classic literature tropes.

The rules that NPCs abide by are not those of the real world, but by the tropes of the setting. You cannot apply real-world logic or justification to the actions of motivations of characters. You have to apply the justification of dramatic irony.

That's why Waifs exist. They are tragic figures, worthy of pity, deserving of compassion, but which are engaged in activities that make them contemptible. That's dramatic irony. They exist to serve a point, that point is that Dementlieu is a horrible place, at all levels and in every way. They're not tiny people, abused and exploited to the point of making irrational, suicidal decisions, they're characters in a badly-written gothic horror fanfic that exist only to make you feel bad.

If killing Waifs makes your character uncomfortable, good, they're working as intended. 

[Iridni Ren]

This is not real life.

Whatever.

I was responding to the points Plato made.

[ladylena]

I used to find it odd that there were children in game as foes, but then I realized that it poses a moral challenge to players of good aligned characters. I had one character who wouldn't kill them, so I just clicked on each target manually. Or you could just subdue all the humans in port, instead of killing them.

[Dumas]

Subdue mode isn’t a real good tool for these situations. The NPC waifs literally jump up and try to murder you again in a matter of minutes. That’s not logical at all. And the thought behind subdue mode too is that you hit these kids so hard they are knocked unconscious, right? That’s extremely violent for a child to suffer through.

Are murdeous children even mentioned in the source books? It just seems like a stretch, even for a game.

We too, as players, can’t play children. Isn’t it a bit odd that there are child enemies then?

[Mereyn]

We too, as players, can’t play children. Isn’t it a bit odd that there are child enemies then?

What about demons, wolfweres, devils, ghosts and the multitude of other enemies that we as players can't play?

[Iridni Ren]

Avoiding them does not solve the "moral dilemma" as you leave them around to murder those weaker than you.

"Subdual" means battering them unconscious with a hammer in Iridni's case, which while technically leaving them alive, only makes the absurdity of the situation even more so.

I will also mention something that once happened months ago, but I haven't seen since, so at least maybe this has been fixed. A "waif" chased me into Savant....whereupon a horde of gendarmes rushed in and murdered it. It was rather amusing to see the bravery of Port's finest en masse after a single small child, shouting the whole while what they were going to do. They may not be brave enough to patrol Ourvrir, but let a ragamuffin come near their headquarters, and they put down their baguettes and draw their rapiers

If the moral dilemma is profound and not an artifice born of errant diction, let's--by the same logic--rename crag cats "kittens," worgs "puppies," and small creatures "tots." Why confine the trope to one zone on the server?

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

If the moral dilemma is profound and not an artifice born of errant diction, let's--by the same logic--rename crag cats "kittens," worgs "puppies," and small creatures "tots."

Crag cats have young cubs running around already. You may see them in the pass just near Castle Ravenloft with some frequency. Therefore, not errant diction.

[Legion XXI]

I never understood why this WHOLE ISSUE wasn't easily avoidable for good guys.  Like, on an IC level, if my guy knows there are children gang members that may force me to fight them in an area.... he'd just avoid that area rather than bash their dumb little heads in and feel bad about it later.  It's literally a couple of zones at night time only, super easy to avoid or sneak thru with GSanc/invis.  As for "I can't them to murder people weaker than me" that's a silly way to look at it, because that's not even remotely solving the problem form an IC point of view.  You don't fix a society that has ultra-oppressed the lower classes by beating the hell out of/killing anyone who would dare break the law, one person at a time.  Only a low wisdom, extremely law focused judge dreadd style character would probably see that as a viable solution.  Maybe the good guys who are made uncomfortable by all this could start working toward fixing the situation that has made this kind of lifestyle a necessity, if they ACTUALLY want to help, instead of killing kids to prevent POTENTIAL future crimes that haven't even happened yet.

I personally like them being there.  Again on an IC level, imagine yourself walking through these run down slums, and you come to realize that the situation of these downtrodden have-nots is SO BAD that even young children are forced to participate in the lifestyle of the criminal gangs just to get by.  That should really convey a feeling of "something has gone seriously wrong here" for your character to act on, but I think a lot of players ignore that aspect of it because they wanna go play high society port lyfe where everyone is happy and nothing is bad and we all drink coffee and they sell fireworks in the market.  Unfortunately, that's just not all the domain was meant to offer in this setting.  It's not the happy land balance to Barovia, it's a place equally dark and plagued by evil, just a different kind.

I think the real "problem" here is that players are being presented with a situation that can't easily be solved by just clicking on every red colored thing involved.  Player initiatives have sprung up from time to time and tried, with varying degrees of success, to provide aid to these run down people and provide them with alternatives to crime.  It provided a lot of fun RP that led to some cool things.  It also backfired in some cases.  Either way, it was nice to see people trying to find an IC approach to an IC issue.  "Just delete all the waifs so my good PC can kill bounties guilt-free" seems like you're taking some of the teeth out of the setting.

[Pav]

I was always a proponent of giving 2 evil points to anyone who lands a killing blow on a waif.

[LivingWasteland]

I was told by a DM that killing a kid is an automatic DP check.

So there's that.

[King Pickle]

I was always a proponent of giving 2 evil points to anyone who lands a killing blow on a waif.

Agreed. Hitting women should result in 1 evil point and killing squirrels 3.

[Wholesome Memester]

The waif is a contemptible creature barely worthy of comparison to the common dire rat. He is incapable to be reasoned with, fueled primarily only by his desire to murder under the harmless guise of a normal Human child. On numerous occasions I have witnessed these daemons tried to be bargained with, to be given a second chance at it's pitiable existence only to be killed by the 'stray' rock in the middle of conversation. They offer no benefit to society, are unable to be employed into any sort of redemption, and chew through our generous and ample foodstores.

It is with this unfortunate experience that I conclude: The only truly redeemable waif is a dead waif.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

Being that the original point of this thread was proposing to amend the Waif AI to be more prone to fleeing in accordance with their youthly tendency towards fear and folks are bringing more attention to the proposal of deleting them to avoid killing them, the thread seems a bit off track.

Personally I think that in accordance with the server themes of evil = easy and more rewarding, maybe make the waif NPCs be the designated cash carriers for ruffian gangs; the ones that collect the riches from those beaten into unconsciousness, while also giving them a very flee-prone script that, if possible, encourages them to specifically flee to even more gang members. In that way it would tempt people to just knock the children out for a slightly heftier payout with greater risk/reward but at the same time also allow people fighting thugs to not fight children whom, generally speaking, would likely not try and engage in a knife fight with a fully armoured Paladin with a glowing sword of righteous wrath.

As to the dilemma of people wanting to fight thugs in Port without risking accidentally murdering children or having to render them unconscious, it might be worth considering that they might just have to not venture there. I've had characters in the past who categorically refuse to deal with a specific locale, type of enemy etc due to personal reasons.

[EO]

To respond to the original point, Waifs already have a negative morale modifier, meaning they are more prone to flee. Their morale modifier is actually already lower than minks.

[Edward]

Well, honestly the Minks need nerfed before the Waif's need fixed.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

To respond to the original point, Waifs already have a negative morale modifier, meaning they are more prone to flee. Their morale modifier is actually already lower than minks.

I don't ever recall seeing a mink flee before it was at near death, personally. How do minks measure up in their morale versus a rat? Rats I would say are the most prone to fleeing creature on the server short of outright non combatants like deer; I'd consider either dropping waifs to rat-tier or maybe even deer-tier fleeing tendencies.