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Author Topic: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"  (Read 7291 times)

zDark Shadowz

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2018, 07:12:45 PM »
Close proximity to a mink causes the aggression bit to kick in, but their HP is so low you don't often notice the flee script kicking in. They might need that percentile roll on their proximity aggression as well so their initial need to attack doesn't override their desire to flee.

[A lone woman, armoured and glorified, clearly well-off, strides into the slums of the Port. Father's, brothers, mothers, all slain before the children's eyes as she cuts her way through bodies upon bodies just to walk from one destination to another. All the child can do is watch in horror and dismay, before a dead look comes into their eyes, their sense of self-preservation fading. Rocks. If I keep slinging rocks at this woman from afar, maybe she will go away. Maybe she will stop killing. The barrage of pitiful rocks, not affecting the woman in the slightest flies towards her, and then... Her hood turns, a glare of two sockets of red peering out into the darkness, and she begins to stride forth, blade in hand toward the child.

The kid tries to run as the woman draws forth, but too close, too near, too fast. The blade cuts through the air, and the dying screams of the now-orphan bleeds into the night sky. A boot tips the kid over, pocketing the few solars that'd been gifted by a charitous fellow a few days prior to the kid, before the woman walks on, uncaring, of the carnage that surrounds her. A passing remark, a complaint to the Gendarme about why kids would attack her after she butchered their friends and family is laughed off by the Gendarme, perturbed, she walks on her way.]

EO

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2018, 09:34:38 PM »
To respond to the original point, Waifs already have a negative morale modifier, meaning they are more prone to flee. Their morale modifier is actually already lower than minks.

I don't ever recall seeing a mink flee before it was at near death, personally. How do minks measure up in their morale versus a rat? Rats I would say are the most prone to fleeing creature on the server short of outright non combatants like deer; I'd consider either dropping waifs to rat-tier or maybe even deer-tier fleeing tendencies.

They already have a lower morale modifier than rats/dire rats. Deers work off a different AI set and it wouldn't apply to waifs. In the end, they are out with stones to attack, they wouldn't flee at first sight.

Fungal Artillery

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2018, 05:49:06 AM »
In PnP an encounter like this, where the characters do not want to kill their attacker, is a problem solving situation. Evil is most often the easiest route and that applies here. It's wrong to kill them and that forces moral characters to go out of their way to be inventive.

The problem is that this is NWN. The tools at the player's disposal are severely limited. They can't throw a grappling hook and escape the kids on the rooftops of Port-a-Lucine. They can't create an illusion of an ogre to scare them off. The game will force the player's character to take Attacks of Opportunity, possibly committing a heinous act of lethal force against a child, without the player or character wanting to.

Because of the limitations of the game we are playing, in my opinion the encounter is unfair to everyone concerned, without DM supervision and involvement.
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Mereyn

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"But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2018, 07:36:32 AM »
Just for the sake of reiterating a point that has been made by multiple people before; there is something you can do to avoid killing the children.
Namely not walking around in the slums of the city where you know criminals will be. And just to extend that thought,
what makes a starving waif more deserving to be spared than the caliban who's been forced to this way of life?
Or the other way around, what makes the criminal less deserving to be spared compared to the child, when heavily armed and armored people,
who must be lugging around some sort of wealth to be having this stuff, are prancing in their god and government-forsaken part of town?

DM Cataclysm

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2018, 11:14:41 AM »
Also to note, subdual mode works in PVE. You can just give them a good wallop on the head and they'll later wake up and go on their merry rock-throwing way!

Silas Rotleaf

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2018, 11:56:42 AM »
Well, if I take into consideration that "thieving skanks" are essentially rag clad prostitutes attacking you with knives... Um, these are evil-ish paupers trying to kill a PC because well, story wise we can assume they want to jump you for your stuff.

Against evil women and children trying to murder you? Isn't that kind of self-defense?

Iridni Ren

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2018, 12:35:02 PM »
Although I've already addressed these arguments, I will address them again because I respect the RP of the players (as well as the players themselves) making them:

"Subdual mode" means beating them unconscious. Since there is no in-game mechanism for then having them dealt with, it is pointless bludgeoning that does nothing to improve the situation. They will still remain threats to those weaker than they. And although their lives will be sustained, those lives will not be improved, either physically or morally. They will kill those weaker than themselves...be bludgeoned into unconsciousness by those stronger and "morally better"...or killed by those stronger and more indifferent.

The argument as to avoid passing through their neighborhood could be extended ad infinitum--especially once we start saying sewer calibans have been forced into their way of life. All of us should stay in the Outskirts and attack only the monsters that come into this safe area. Aren't vampires even "forced" into sucking blood?

Contrariwise and limiting the argument to children, you create a human-shield effect. Gendarmes hot on your trail? Run into the place where the good folk don't go because they'll be forced to deal with little innocent waifs...who act more like suicide bombers.

In any case, all of this over-complicates the subject. I respond to these arguments because I don't like it when my own arguments are ignored and wish to be respectful to those making them.

The bottom line remains that the word "waif" does not describe them, as it connotes the condition of being involuntarily forsaken. If we accept that these other miscreants are their allies, these beings are not forsaken. Nor does their aggressive behavior support such a forlorn designation. Unlike say, "sewer caliban," it editorializes inaccurately to force a moral dilemma when one should not exist.

"Youths," for example, would be better, as being purely descriptive. 
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 12:41:21 PM by Iridni Ren »

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PlatointheCave

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2018, 01:11:44 PM »
The argument as to avoid passing through their neighborhood could be extended ad infinitum--especially once we start saying sewer calibans have been forced into their way of life. All of us should stay in the Outskirts and attack only the monsters that come into this safe area. Aren't vampires even "forced" into sucking blood?

This is a fallacy of equivalence. While the comparison is superficially similar, the context matters. The waifs are the product of a neglectful society. The Government and its enforcers are not necessarily the good guys. The argument is one of this specific power dynamic, not a general case.

Contrariwise and limiting the argument to children, you create a human-shield effect. Gendarmes hot on your trail? Run into the place where the good folk don't go because they'll be forced to deal with little innocent waifs...who act more like suicide bombers.

Yeah, that's pretty messed up. Almost like the society itself is a corrupt mess and even well-meaning enforcers are supporting a backwards system.

The bottom line remains that the word "waif" does not describe them, as it connotes the condition of being involuntarily forsaken. If we accept that these other miscreants are their allies, these beings are not forsaken. Nor does their aggressive behavior support such a forlorn designation. Unlike say, "sewer caliban," it editorializes inaccurately to force a moral dilemma when one should not exist.

"Youths," for example, would be better, as being purely descriptive.

This is a purely semantic case, but again I must note: they have been involuntarily forsaken by society. This isn't some 21st century reading; the setting is a place where those in power exist in unimaginable decadence while the rest are overworked and starving. Your character might not be familiar with the history, or have been deceived into thinking the Good cause necessarily lies with the government, but no one is really clean in the City of Lights.

If it's black and white good and evil you're looking for; you wont find it there. I very much encourage you to use this sort of discomfort to drive character development. If this is something your character feels strongly about, they might reflect on the causes and try to address them.

DM Erebus

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2018, 01:23:23 PM »
I respond to these arguments because I don't like it when my own arguments are ignored and wish to be respectful to those making them.

Whatever.

I was responding to the points Plato made.

Chaoshawk

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2018, 02:28:01 PM »
Hello everyone, let's keep the discussion on the system and topic rather than on each other. Be excellent and please refrain from barbed responses to each other.

For the time being waifs are here to stay.

Cheers.
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APorg

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2018, 05:41:07 PM »
I don't know if anyone is actually arguing for removing Waifs...

I do think in general, criminal AI isn't really done any favours with the current morale system. Half the time, if a creature fails a morale check, it will turn around again later and come back to attack, even if at Near Death.

I think it would be nice if "escape" mechanics could be added to make fleeing mobs at Near Death fade away, like the way that flying birds do if attacked and not killed. This would represent them slinking off into the shadows to lick their wounds and fight another day, which is more realistic behaviour.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Iridni Ren

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2018, 06:26:55 PM »
I respond to these arguments because I don't like it when my own arguments are ignored and wish to be respectful to those making them.

Whatever.

I was responding to the points Plato made.

I had already responded to the arguments you made, CosmicRay, before you made them :)

Quote
The behavior could be justified by saying Dementlieu is as the name implies, full of demented people who don't really behave in rational ways. Or the people aren't real as some have argued about those in the Dread Realms anyway--that they are all simulacra / automatons.

Emphasis mine.

And here's what you wrote in response:

Quote
This is not real life....

The rules that NPCs abide by are not those of the real world....

They exist to serve a point, that point is that Dementlieu is a horrible place, at all levels and in every way. They're not tiny people, abused and exploited to the point of making irrational, suicidal decisions, they're characters in a badly-written gothic horror fanfic that exist only to make you feel bad.

In short, I said "either this" (the argument you subsequently made in slightly different wording) or "that" (Plato's argument). But you responded only to #2 in my post and ignored what I said in #1.

I just didn't bother to repeat myself.

ETA: And as I said then, if they're not real, there is no moral dilemma.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2018, 06:29:30 PM by Iridni Ren »

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DM Erebus

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2018, 02:09:35 AM »
Hello everyone, let's keep the discussion on the system and topic rather than on each other. Be excellent and please refrain from barbed responses to each other.

For the time being waifs are here to stay.

Cheers.

Edward

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2018, 02:36:37 AM »
Waifs are fine.

haifisch021

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2018, 10:39:15 AM »
The waif is a contemptible creature barely worthy of comparison to the common dire rat. He is incapable to be reasoned with, fueled primarily only by his desire to murder under the harmless guise of a normal Human child. On numerous occasions I have witnessed these daemons tried to be bargained with, to be given a second chance at it's pitiable existence only to be killed by the 'stray' rock in the middle of conversation. They offer no benefit to society, are unable to be employed into any sort of redemption, and chew through our generous and ample foodstores.

It is with this unfortunate experience that I conclude: The only truly redeemable waif is a dead waif.

slay all children :dagger:
Me miserable! which way shall I fly
Infinite wrath and infinite despair?
Which way I fly is hell; myself am hell;
And in the lowest deep a lower deep,
Still threat’ning to devour me, opens wide,
To which the hell I suffer seems a heaven.

Dud_Goose

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2018, 11:27:20 AM »
Defending yourself isn't an evil act, but going out of your way to slay children for it's own sake would be. 

A good individual would want to explore non-lethal options after encountering the situation the first time. 

Subdual seems fine.  Nothing wrong with a little corporal punishment.
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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2018, 11:52:27 AM »
Subdual seems fine.  Nothing wrong with a little corporal punishment.

“A few bonks on the head, at least they ain’t dead” amirite??

Dud_Goose

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2018, 03:10:22 PM »
I'm thinking if more in a biblical "spare the rod spoil the child" sense, but you work with what you've got here.
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ethinos

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2018, 04:57:11 PM »
Kill everything red. Then burn the corpse just in case. /problem
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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2018, 09:21:54 PM »
Well, if I take into consideration that "thieving skanks" are essentially rag clad prostitutes attacking you with knives... Um, these are evil-ish paupers trying to kill a PC because well, story wise we can assume they want to jump you for your stuff.

Against evil women and children trying to murder you? Isn't that kind of self-defense?

They're not evil, they're desperate. there's a difference. Ouvier is a poor, rundown and barely functional side of town. If you want it likened to anything in modern day, think somewhere like compton in the US. Desperation and need make good men/women do what they need to do to survive. They might not want to do what they're doing, but they do it to stay alive. The 'Thieving Skanks' Are likely forced into prostitution with no other option, whereas the waifs are orphans who don't know better. Don't think because of their name tag that they're evil or good, use your own common sense

Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2018, 09:34:30 PM »
Technically by alignment rules if you perform enough evil acts regardless of context or personal morals, your willingness to commit evil causes an alignment shift. So while these thieving skanks might weep at the injuries they cause or the lives they take, enough of it will still make them evil. It just makes them conflicted, not any less evil.

Darkside of Heaven

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2018, 10:14:19 PM »
Justice knows no age.
Be lawful good.
Kill a Waif in Self Defence.
Kill a Waif for choosing the life of a murderous criminal.
Kill a Waif for refusing the path towards redemption.
Kill a Waif today and make the world a better place.
Crush a tiny skull before it grows up to crush yours.

Nemesis 24

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2018, 10:36:16 PM »
None of y'all ever heard of the use of discretion?  And I dont mean in a chaotic sense.  Discretion is at the heart of being LG.  It can therefore include not smashing the skulls of children, avoiding being where it can happen, and devoting efforts in a non-directly confrontational manner to try and provide an alternative way of life.

Of course someone may just jack all your gold and run off with it rather than anything good actually coming of it, but D'loo is nothing but a monumentally frustrating craphole anyway, so its to be expected.

Iridni Ren

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2018, 10:57:27 PM »
Don't think because of their name tag that they're evil or good, use your own common sense

Actually, that's what I'm going to do.

The name tag is metagaming anyway and isn't part of WYSIWYG.

I'm just going to ignore it.

In the dark it's easy enough, based on their behavior, to mistake them for halfling thieves from the halfling ghetto.

Bash anything that moves...and let Pelor sort them out come sun up :D

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Ard

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Re: "But even if he has been wicked...think how young he is"
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2018, 02:34:55 AM »
I still don't  understand why're you going so indulgent against waifs. Those aren't normal kids, my people !! They can run carrying a Full Plate !! They can have a goddamn Full Plate as a loot !! A normal kid won't be able to run freely and throw stones flexing their hand back freely while carrying a full plate !!