Author Topic: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting  (Read 3849 times)

BraveSirRobin

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Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« on: October 24, 2018, 06:46:53 AM »
Hello,


I've been racking around an idea in my head for a while now, about how stealth mechanics interact with Neverwinter Night as a multiplayer game. How those mechanics interact in a roleplaying setting. A feat to allow a character that is non-hostile to you with detection skills, to be able to spot and relay that information in a manner that is consistent with the game mechanics, while simultaneously retaining balance. I don't have the slightest clue how you'd do this mechanically, but here's my thought:

A feat that would allow a listen or spot character to relay and reveal a stealthed character they can locate, to player characters within a radius around themselves, who are non-hostile. The feat would give a special ability, and to use it, you must hostile the target first. It would take a full action, and a dialogue would drop in the combat log that alerts everyone that it happened, with heavy emphasis in the feat description detailing that your character must say something ICly, it isn't a telepathic message to everyone around you. Whether this is a gesture or a shout, is to be determined by roleplay. Additionally, the Sleight of Hand feat could be used for a second-tier version of this skill called, 'Silent Proximity Spotting,' wherein you can roll Sleight of Hand vs. a Spot check to prevent the hostiled target from being alerted that you indicated them, however all neutral characters nearby would still receive the text. This player could type something like... [The Garda gestures Westward a moment with a knowing look to his ally.] to indicate 'Silent Proximity Spotting,' meanwhile, the spotted man would be mechanically visible to all players who received it. There could be additional feats that increase the radius of players that are made aware, however I would imagine it best if the radius was kept small.

The reason I've been thinking about this is, and while I've had this issue before, I know other players have, too. If you're a non-detection character and you keep company of detection characters, a man can be stealthed and directly infront of your face, and the character to your right can see him, but for whatever reason, you cannot. They can go, 'I SEE YOU! QUICK, GET HIM!' but you can't mechanically interact with them whatsoever. They can just walk off, so long as they don't attack, they can't be targeted by anyone else. I find that to be all-too-common, and something of a pain in the ass, pardon the french. It's not even the main reason. If I'm beside someone, who is a spotter, and there's a dude in the bush? They go, 'Hey, look in the bushes. Yeah, there. See him?' -- No matter how much attention your character pays to that region, even if they're literally in plain sight, you are none the wiser mechanically. It ends up treating stealth more like this multi-planar invisibility where half the room can see you, half-can't and cannot respond.


May the knock-down drag out begin.

Arawn

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2018, 09:13:28 AM »
Can't be done in the engine.
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Edward

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2018, 09:58:58 AM »
It likely could be however would be easily abuse-able, such as making it decrease said Sneaking Character’s stats to - levels for a moment to allow others to see them.

Arawn

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2018, 10:11:21 AM »
It likely could be however would be easily abuse-able, such as making it decrease said Sneaking Character’s stats to - levels for a moment to allow others to see them.

Which would expose them to everyone, not just the specific people who are being signaled.
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Edward

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2018, 10:25:30 AM »
That’s what I meant by it being abused yes.

Arawn

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2018, 10:40:36 AM »
That’s what I meant by it being abused yes.

Abuse would require that it not be an intended effect of the ability. Short of simply declaring that anyone you see who wasn't indicated can't be seen (which is mechanically impossible to know, since you might have detected them normally), there's really no scenario in which that would be abuse rather than an unavoidable consequence.
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Edward

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2018, 10:42:48 AM »
Would you like for this to be a thing however if it was possible?

Arawn

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2018, 11:13:27 AM »
Would you like for this to be a thing however if it was possible?

Me, personally? I don't know. It's not worth getting into the balance considerations and so on, since it can't be implemented and likely never will.
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Always_a_hero

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2018, 12:04:34 PM »
I'd think the context of "warning an ally" could only be done if the characters were in a same party, which is disabled to PC unless you have summons, familiars/animal companions or an NPC like the guards have.

Once you would've spotted the enemy, you'd then need to hostile or faction hostile that player before using the feat which would eventually reveal the sneaky thief or whatnot.

Most of those "ally" NPCs don't have a lot of perception skill (thinking of a Vallaki guard pure fighter). So instead of making a function to reveal the stealthy guy or girl, I'd suggest making a feat which takes the user's spot score and grants said NPCs the same value of that score.

So let's say the player spots someone sneaking around with 20 spot, using the feat would grant the allies in his party the same score of 20 (if the initial score of said allies was lower than 20). If the ally then spots the hostiled character, he should technically charge and attack.

So the way I see this feat doable is by stocking the players spot modifier in an array then give it as bonus to other members of his current party or set the allies' spot score to the player's if their initial score was not above that number already. All that for maybe a turn per day.

Of course I'm saying that but it would only work if there are the function to support it, like a GetSpotScore (which I know might not be a real function) then use it as a bonus. Furthermore, the feat would be useless for those who don't have access to said allies, so maybe it could be a special ability everyone gets at character creation or something.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 12:08:12 PM by Always_a_hero »
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Arawn

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2018, 12:23:52 PM »
It wouldn’t work because, again, there’s no way in the engine at present to grant bonuses against only specific targets. It could lead to detecting someone else, completely unrelated to the person indicated.
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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2018, 12:49:15 PM »
It's the same reason why you can't cast Invisibility and be invisible only to certain people. Greater Sanctuary gets around some of that with hostility settings, but that still doesn't really suffice.

The game's stealth engine just doesn't support variable stealth-- and in that same token, it doesn't support variable visibility.

The Spot skill has literally no means of differentiating between different hidden targets. You just can't buff a group of players with a spotter character nearby saying, "I see a man, he's over there." Because then that whole party is buffed and their spot score is suddenly detecting everyone everywhere else, too, whether or not the original spotter was pointing that person out.


There are immersion breaking aspects to the stealth system, sure. You can mechanically have someone standing right in front of someone in an open field, and a person not see him. But it's just a limitation of the game engine. And it's that same limitation of the game engine that makes changes like the proposed stuff simply not able to work.

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2018, 12:55:42 PM »
And I also think it's a terrible balance wise (But I agree with Arawn that it's silly to talk about if its literally impossible to do, but I'm gonna do it anyways)

When you're wearing stealth equipment, you sacrifice things like AC and saves, and important skills like Discipline. When you're wearing the necessary spotting equipment, you're also sacrificing similar things so that you can see and successfully target the stealth character.

So then, with a click of a button, you could offer that same high spot score to allies who have invested neither the skill points, nor the equipment to attain that effective detection score. Screw immersion, that's completely imbalanced.

If you're a spotter character and you detected a stealth character, there are already things you can do to make that person easier to see. The simplest example would be casting light on them, which mechanically and negatively impacts their hide score. You could dispel their magic aiding their hiding, you could cast various mind-controlling spells and force them out of hiding. I think you could even aggressively polymorph them too. There are plenty of options.

You could also buff and/or hand over all your spotting equipment to your ally, to actually help him see what your very enchanted eyes could previously detect.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 12:59:43 PM by TheGrinningHound »

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2018, 01:07:42 PM »
I recommended just adding in a rare custom throw-able that does a stealth purge of a localized area. You throw it and it forcibly removed everyone from stealth without a save from the impact point. This would of course require the person in stealth to hide in the shadows or keep away from obvious places to hide in, such as the center of a room next to people whispering.

Where the max stealth is now easily cresting a goodly epic number with the new introduction of stealthing equipment. It would be nice to see some push back with items that can strip or remove stealth. Localized stat reduction is possible within the engine, paint bombs in the main campaign for example. Ultimately there needs to be some sort of push back against the extremely high and easily attainable stealth scores happening.

ChrisRanHimselfOver

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2018, 01:41:06 PM »
As the game is now, there are options for dealing with people in stealth so long as you plan to take hostile action. AoE spells or attacks will still harm them as long as they're within the radius of the effect. And the detector character can use attacks like that to mark the location that other characters need to aim for in order to do damage themselves. There isn't much a stealther can do in that instance aside from reveal themselves and run or get constantly pelted by attacks.

You do, in effect, end up revealing the stealthing character in that way, either through eventually depleting their hp or making them reveal themselves. Just have to make sure you follow the PvP rules.
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TheGrinningHound

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2018, 01:44:03 PM »
Quote
Ultimately there needs to be some sort of push back against the extremely high and easily attainable stealth scores happening.

The pushback against more people hiding should be more people getting detection skills and spot equipment. Listen equipment is among some of the most inexpensive stuff, too.

And frankly speaking, the stealth/detection mechanic in NWN will always mechanically favor detection. Sneaks need to have a +20  (Usually reaching for a +25) above another player's two detection scores. If they're any less, they will guaranteed be detected, due to the amount of rolls per second. Meanwhile, a character with detection skills only needs to focus on one skill, and doesn't even have to get it as high. There are also more feats available for detection characters.

The only people who should be detecting characters who have invested in the necessary stealth score, are the people who actually invest in detection themselves. The balance is, and always has leaned in favor of detection characters. It still does to this day, no matter any perception of prevalence in stealth equipment.


Edit: In fact, one of the other negative influences against stealth based characters was the extremely high cost and rarity of stealth items. If there's been a chance, this is great news.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 01:46:36 PM by TheGrinningHound »

APorg

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2018, 02:22:17 PM »
It is simply wrong to ignore the equipment and loot market while focusing solely on the mechanics, given that the prevalence of Stealth gear is obviously meant to address the latter. This is pure cherry-picking.

You cannot separate equipment market from balance.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 02:23:59 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2018, 02:48:40 PM »
Pet peeve rant:
Spoiler: show
There's a lot of emphasis on skills on this server which leads to some sad-ish RP like a group being constantly attacked by trap-laying stealthers, can't do anything cool like bait them to follow you into an alleyway to ambush when they pass by if you still can't see them. (Tried, example anonymous just transitioned back an area to reset stealth again)


There's some mechanics aside from the basic roll d20 when it comes to detecting that include objects in the way, standing still, directional facing, distance etc that inflate a stealthing persons ability to hide.

My opinion: If stealth is a type of magic, invisibility purge, faerie fire, continual flame etc should ruin the days of people stealthing.

Could rangers and/or bards be given faerie fire, and if applied to someone stealthing, break their stealthing as they no longer benefit from being 'invisible'?
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 02:57:30 PM by zDark Shadowz »

TheGrinningHound

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2018, 03:03:26 PM »
It is simply wrong to ignore the equipment and loot market while focusing solely on the mechanics, given that the prevalence of Stealth gear is obviously meant to address the latter. This is pure cherry-picking.

You cannot separate equipment market from balance.

I'm not cherry-picking as much as I am reducing Stealth vs Detection to its base mechanical equation, which leans in favor of detection.

Guaranteed Successful Stealth: 1d20 + (Max: 50) + Dex + Feats =<-- Must be Greater Than: 1d20 + (Max: 50) + Wis + Feats + 20 (immunity window).

When you look at the fact that stealth also then requires 2 skills to focus on, that's potentially twice as many feats, twice as many skill points spent. And more allotted gear. And there's also more detection feats available than stealth, too.

Gear is obviously a big part of the mechanical balance, because the gear/spells on both sides factors into that +50 cap. But I was hitting the +50 cap on listen as a level 11 character, and it was cheap. If you still look at the +20 immunity-to-detection gap needed by stealth, it also means that it's just that much easier to pull off gear wise, as a detection-based character-- because you just have less gear you absolutely need to buy.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 03:08:25 PM by TheGrinningHound »

APorg

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2018, 03:35:01 PM »
I'm not cherry-picking as much as I am reducing Stealth vs Detection to its base mechanical equation, which leans in favor of detection.

There are three pillars of the Stealth argument: base mechanics, buffs, and gear. The problem with focusing on the mechanics is that the equation is dynamic. Buffs now only really favour detectors for short term buffs (Insight, Amplify); for Hour long buffs, they favour stealthers. (They can get +15 to both Hide and MS  for an Hour from potions; +5 Listen and +9 Spot from Potions that last an Hour. Potions and Scrolls of Insight or Scrolls of Amplify do swing it in brief bursts for detection, but only a small subset of classes can use Amplify to get to +50 Listen; and maxing out in Class Spot with good True Seeing is also restricted to certain builds.)

Gear has also swung towards Stealth, and in a significant way. There are at least three or four, and probably even more, different items of Stealth gear that provide a cumulative Stealth bonus of +10 (i.e. a split bonus between Hide and MS that adds up to +10); in the past couple of month,  I've seen about 3 being auctioned. In the same span of time, I've seen one single +5 Spot ring. In other words, peak Stealth gear is twice as good and three times more common from my immediate past experience. (Yes, that's subjective; and I'll admit, I'm a bit salty; selling Rings of Hiding at 1,000 gold in order to buy Spot gear that is strictly speaking weaker for ten or one hundred times more gold does make me a bit less willing to swallow the line that my detector is the one with the home field advantage at the moment.)

It may indeed still be easy for Bards and Rogues with Amplify scrolls to max out Listen. But if you limit your argument to those two classes and to the mechanical factor that's remained unchanged, then that is cherry-picking. Stealthers may have been in a bad spot a couple of years ago, but then is not now.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 03:39:02 PM by aprogressivist »
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APorg

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2018, 03:58:10 PM »
Hells, people are vendor-trashing +4 Hide gear these days!
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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2018, 05:07:48 PM »
 :lol:

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2018, 07:29:21 PM »
Quote
Ultimately there needs to be some sort of push back against the extremely high and easily attainable stealth scores happening.

The pushback against more people hiding should be more people getting detection skills and spot equipment. Listen equipment is among some of the most inexpensive stuff, too.

And frankly speaking, the stealth/detection mechanic in NWN will always mechanically favor detection. Sneaks need to have a +20  (Usually reaching for a +25) above another player's two detection scores. If they're any less, they will guaranteed be detected, due to the amount of rolls per second. Meanwhile, a character with detection skills only needs to focus on one skill, and doesn't even have to get it as high. There are also more feats available for detection characters.

The only people who should be detecting characters who have invested in the necessary stealth score, are the people who actually invest in detection themselves. The balance is, and always has leaned in favor of detection characters. It still does to this day, no matter any perception of prevalence in stealth equipment.


Edit: In fact, one of the other negative influences against stealth based characters was the extremely high cost and rarity of stealth items. If there's been a chance, this is great news.

I think you're missing the point of this thread with the line

Quote
The only people who should be detecting characters who have invested in the necessary stealth score, are the people who actually invest in detection themselves. The balance is, and always has leaned in favor of detection characters. It still does to this day, no matter any perception of prevalence in stealth equipment.

The conversation is almost on a meta level, currently, not one regarding detectors and who should what who where. It's really bad form, for you to be standing directly infront of someone's face, or directly behind them, when the person beside them can spot them -- And you can reach out and stab them without them even seeing you. So you're clearly very close. And that person, until the other party decides to play along, literally cannot see them, at all. Stealth shouldn't be this quasi-planar invisibility that renders them immune to all reaction, and then people complain because someone throws down tacks on the ground through doorways and claims that's abusing the system because Stealthers wouldn't theoretically have to take that doorway to get in. Limits of the NWN Engine. Just like how we won't really be able to pursue this feat.

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2018, 07:40:23 PM »
Aura of detection? Casts a 15 foot aura that increases the surrounding allies spot and listen buy the classes wisdom mod. available to a specific PRC. Like people champ.

Btw not an actual feat but a nice idea.

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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2018, 12:21:49 AM »
NWN is like a comic book, its art helps frame a shared vision of what is going on, but it still does require some theatre of the mind to paint in finer details. If you lack an imagination that explains how someone is in close proximity but you have not noticed them, I would say you are not trying to and based on some stealth balance rhetoric you might not want to. Much like imagining facial expressions described by roleplayed emotes, or the tone of voice inferred by a character's dialgoue you are not being given every specific minute detail your character is experiencing as you play them, you must imagine some of them. You're just picking and choosing when to use your imagination if stealth gets you riled up because its not believable. (and the stealth that works requires magic items and magic spells, you know, magic)

Of course, you are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one. I know that sounds like a platitude and it will fall on some deaf ears but you are not the enemy of the player doing the stealthing, you are his partner in roleplay. It would do much to server morale and fun if you would take the opportunity to help "sell" the believably of the scene by having your character make remarks about "how supernaturally the shadows cling to you, no wonder I did not notice you there" etc. Playing along is what roleplay is all about, every character has strengths, and every player enjoys seeing their character's most accomplished abilities come into play from time to time. It does not hurt anything to assist the other player in portraying their strengths when they come into play. A character that is sneaking past a group on this server has been built since day one to be able to achieve such a feat. Roll with the scene, if you are the one character that has spotted the skulking knave then confront them and demand they speak for their actions. Surely by doing so, the onus is now on the stealthed player to drop stealth and roleplay a dismay at having been spotted and thus allowing the others to get involved. This takes trust, and a focus on the scene first and foremost. Both of these attributes are in increasingly short supply on PotM. Players are only hurting their self by playing this way, there is a better way for all but you must dedicate to it.

But even if you just cannot bring yourself to approach such an aspect of the game such as stealth with a cooperative mindset, you still are being a spoilsport if you would rather focus on your inability to imagine why its even possible for them to do it rather than to play along. Its the opposite of cheesing to stealth that well, its completely backed up by the game.


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Re: Suggested Feat: Proximity Spotting
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2018, 01:38:40 AM »
NWN is like a comic book, its art helps frame a shared vision of what is going on, but it still does require some theatre of the mind to paint in finer details. If you lack an imagination that explains how someone is in close proximity but you have not noticed them, I would say you are not trying to and based on some stealth balance rhetoric you might not want to. Much like imagining facial expressions described by roleplayed emotes, or the tone of voice inferred by a character's dialgoue you are not being given every specific minute detail your character is experiencing as you play them, you must imagine some of them. You're just picking and choosing when to use your imagination if stealth gets you riled up because its not believable. (and the stealth that works requires magic items and magic spells, you know, magic)

Of course, you are no where close to the sort of mindset where imagination can take root in such a scene if you assume an OOC adversarial competitive spirit about the game rather than a collaborative one. I know that sounds like a platitude and it will fall on some deaf ears but you are not the enemy of the player doing the stealthing, you are his partner in roleplay. It would do much to server morale and fun if you would take the opportunity to help "sell" the believably of the scene by having your character make remarks about "how supernaturally the shadows cling to you, no wonder I did not notice you there" etc. Playing along is what roleplay is all about, every character has strengths, and every player enjoys seeing their character's most accomplished abilities come into play from time to time. It does not hurt anything to assist the other player in portraying their strengths when they come into play. A character that is sneaking past a group on this server has been built since day one to be able to achieve such a feat. Roll with the scene, if you are the one character that has spotted the skulking knave then confront them and demand they speak for their actions. Surely by doing so, the onus is now on the stealthed player to drop stealth and roleplay a dismay at having been spotted and thus allowing the others to get involved. This takes trust, and a focus on the scene first and foremost. Both of these attributes are in increasingly short supply on PotM. Players are only hurting their self by playing this way, there is a better way for all but you must dedicate to it.

But even if you just cannot bring yourself to approach such an aspect of the game such as stealth with a cooperative mindset, you still are being a spoilsport if you would rather focus on your inability to imagine why its even possible for them to do it rather than to play along. Its the opposite of cheesing to stealth that well, its completely backed up by the game.

+1

I agree so much with many of these points.

People who are driven primarily by PvP considerations and the desire for mechanical advantage really are missing out on what can be accomplished through looking for collaboration and enhancing the experience of others as well as themselves.

The game and its engine are limited; our imaginations aren't.

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