Author Topic: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations  (Read 1275 times)

GinjaNinja

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Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« on: October 16, 2018, 06:00:11 AM »
Just made myself a Wood elf bard expecting either:
+2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con -2 Int,
+2 Str -2 Int,

And... I got
+1 Str +1 Dex +1 Con -1 Cha

https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=15365.0 Please remove this thread, it tricks new players and causes feeling of regret and disappointment in new players
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 08:17:09 AM by GinjaNinja »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2018, 08:49:06 AM »
Hey there,

I read the discussion you were having in Discord about this. I pretty much agree with you that it would be more straightforward to include the stats as info during PC creation. The server, however, has a tension between immersion and practicality. In general, talking about stats is seen as immersion-breaking because, for RP, they don't really exist. It's why the stats of items aren't supposed to be discussed ICly either (and OCly it's sometimes considered bad form as well).

Secondly, the server is constantly evolving. So a lot of information becomes dated. We have a Wiki that because of the way it allows everyone to update it dynamically should generally reflect more current info: http://nwnravenloft.wikia.com/wiki/Ravenloft:_Prisoners_of_the_Mist_Wikia

What I find leads to the most success, though, is talking to other players, either via in-game RP or on the Chat. The reason for this being the best strategy is not only that you will learn up-to-date information, you will also be receiving information that you didn't even know to ask for. Most importantly, you will be forming relationships and networking, which is essential to having fun and even surviving on POTM.

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Always_a_hero

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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2018, 11:42:29 AM »
In general, talking about stats is seen as immersion-breaking because, for RP, they don't really exist. It's why the stats of items aren't supposed to be discussed ICly either (and OCly it's sometimes considered bad form as well).

Isn't it dangerous to say stats don't hold any RP/immersive element? I'd think more accurate to say there are so many ways they can used or so many ways they can define a character that people decide to use whatever is to their advantave. (i.e. someone could have 8 cha and be ugly but sociable or pretty while being socially awkward). Items properties are more something lore-related, often resumed to "this makes you sneakier" and whatnots. It's just my counter-argument to this quote though.

The main problem here is that not knowing what picking a race brings to the table can be frustrating, which is fully understandable. I've often searched to find out the stats for special races one could apply to without ever being sure of what they do. And -this- could be why there isn't many special races played on the server compared to let's say prestige classes.

Informing the players of the mechanics is the least to do if you want said players to come up with something viable so that everyone can enjoy the game.

Edit: The stats may be accessible once in the character creation room. Going to check once home if no one confirms beforehand. However, the problem would remain information accessible outside of IG.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 11:58:45 AM by Always_a_hero »
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2018, 12:02:28 PM »
In general, talking about stats is seen as immersion-breaking because, for RP, they don't really exist. It's why the stats of items aren't supposed to be discussed ICly either (and OCly it's sometimes considered bad form as well).

Isn't it dangerous to say stats don't hold any RP/immersive element? I'd think more accurate to say there are so many ways they can used or so many ways they can define a character that people decide to use whatever is to their advantave. (i.e. someone could have 8 cha and be ugly but sociable or pretty while being socially awkward). Items properties are more something lore-related, often resumed to "this makes you sneakier" and whatnots. It's just my counter-argument to this quote though.

The main problem here is that not knowing what picking a race brings to the table can be frustrating, which is fully understandable. I've often searched to find out the stats for special races one could apply to without ever being sure of what they do. And -this- could be why there isn't many special races played on the server compared to let's say prestige classes.

Informing the players of the mechanics is the least to do if you want said players to come up with something viable so that everyone can enjoy the game.

I meant literally talking about a stat as a number. So perhaps one way this tension could be resolved is if the various races were described in general terms. (They may be already, and I just don't know it.)  So a +1 modifier to strength could be mentioned as "this race is stronger than average." +2, "this race is extremely strong."

I agree with your last statement, and having the background portion of character creation describe specific bonuses to skills received supports it. As I said, this is a tension, not a clear-cut line, between practicality and immersion.


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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2018, 12:29:11 PM »
Over the years, much confusion has occurred with the application of racial ability score adjustments on PotM, so allow me to attempt to clear up some confusing aspects if I may.

There should not be any circumstance where you are only receiving a "+1" to an ability score from a racial adjustment. These adjustments always come in even numbers. It is more likely a bug if what you are seeing is correct. Its possible that the script may have become wrong and just needs to be corrected. If its true even after accounting for the following then I would report it as a bug and see if it can be replicated by others.
    But first, there are a couple of things you should be aware of when playing a subrace. The ability scores of a subrace are applied on top of an ability score array that has already been adjusted for the "standard/vanilla" base race. In this instance, Potm is modifying an ALREADY modified elf. For this example, the race you are modifying is the base elf from the player's handbook. The base elf from the player's handbook/srd is the "High Elf" of Greyhawk or the "Moon Elf" from Forgotten Realms. If were playing either of those two subraces you would see no further adjustment by Potm.
So before the scripts modify your ability scores on Prisoners of the Mist as an elf, you have already received the standard ability score adjustments:
-  +2 DEX, -2 CON
Any adjustments by the subrace need to take those preset adjustments into account. So for example, if the race has no penalty to constitution then the script applies an arbitrary +2 CON to negate the penalty that your character is not supposed to have. The same is true of bonuses too.
    And lastly, there are two subraces of wood elves. Sounds like you are trying to play one from Abeir-Toril.
There is a subrace of elves known as "wood elves" in both the Greyhawk (Oerth) and Forgotten Realms (Abeir-Toril) settings.

- The wood elves of Oerth have: +2 Strength, -2 Intelligence. In their setting they are also known as sylvan elves.
- The wood elves of Faerun have: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Constitution, –2 Intelligence, –2 Charisma.
In their setting they are also known copper elves due to their skin tones, or "Or-tel-quessir" in Elvish.

What should happen when you select a Torillian Wood Elf is that Potm modifies your ability scores thusly:
+2 STR, -2 INT, and -2 CHA. The dexterity and constitution scores were already modified by the base elf adjustments.
I hope this helps clear up your confusion. Sorry you are frustrated.


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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2018, 09:05:03 PM »
They've purposely suppressed stat bonuses of subraces to make min maxing harder. You'll need to find someone OOCly to tell you what they are to find them out.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2018, 09:09:16 PM by Booksarefun666 »

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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2018, 09:07:49 PM »
I looked into it and indeed the global modifiers for a Sylvan Elf (3E, not 3.5 since they revised subraces in 3.5) should be:

+2 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha

So from a base NwN elf, it'd amount to:

+2 Str, -2 Int, -2 Cha

I'll fix this and review the other ones just in case.

GinjaNinja

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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2018, 01:16:30 AM »
Thanks for the input everyone, What it looks like I need to do is track down a DM in game and 'check' if possible that I got the correct stat changes
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modderpunk

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Re: Elf Stat lines? New player frustrations
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2018, 03:23:39 AM »
I think the dev in the post above you allready acknowledged you did not because there is a mistake he will fix. This will require an update however so it does not solve your problem immediatly



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