Author Topic: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful  (Read 6714 times)

Iridni Ren

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New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« on: October 07, 2018, 11:18:40 PM »
Although in general I consider crafting a horrible grind, herbalism has long been the craft that was easiest to do and with the quickest, most lucrative payout. The changes have made it even easier.

1. A lot of the DCs are 22. I'm pretty sure invisibility is lower on the new recipe than the old, even though the old required two herbs and this only one. The 22 makes mastering the craft pretty easy and quick, especially given mass brewing, as it softens the jump from 20 to 25.

2. Many, many more recipes are available, which makes the craft much more powerful.

Aside from game balance, I don't like the changes (personally) because of having so many more herbs and potions to keep up with. I especially don't understand why some of the new herbs duplicate already existing recipes. Unless I'm mistaken there are two new ways of making Eagle's Splendor, when there were already two ways of doing this.  Four recipes that do the same thing?

Finally, the potion bottles have become even harder to distinguish, partly from sheer quantity. But also it seems as though assumptions like "green = heal/curative" have been violated.

Some suggestions just so this isn't entirely critical:

1. Eliminate duplicate recipes and any new herbs that do nothing but duplicate others.

2. Give all herbs unique appearances. If that's not feasible, then I submit there are too many herbs.

3. Same for potion bottles. Use colors to give basic idea of potion and make them consistent. For example, each schoolf of magic have its own color.

4. DCs should reflect spell level. Perhaps (level +2) * 5.

5. Spells 4th level and above should require a minimum of 2 herbs.

Some of the new herbs may have to be used in combination with others. If so I haven't discovered that, but again this points out a problem with having so many. Players are going to learn these recipes either IC (through trial and error or talking to other PCs), or OOC.

Having so many combinations really does encourage OOC chatter because of the difficulty of learning through trial and error. The number of combinations that must be tried gets huge when you have so many herbs.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2018, 11:25:53 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2018, 03:09:12 AM »
Only commenting because I have an invested interest in some herbs, so I've taken the bait well.

New herbs. New combinations...

The best things to have come from the new herb range are the healing potions I've found. They're very cost efficient due to the nature of the spell they use to their effect.

None of the new potions are better than what was existing, they have utility but considering three of the existing potions and lining them up with the best of the new ones, there's no power boost, just more variety of what you can do and how to do it.

More XP efficient herbs are located outside of the starting area, so risk vs reward is appropriate there.

As for too many herbs, well, it's the same amount of herb spawn points, it's more variety than more herbs.

If you don't want to pick something up, don't. If anything because of this, it has diluted existing herbs so it's  actually lowering how many potent potions you could make out of herbs gathered from any one place.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 03:11:59 AM by zDark Shadowz »

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2018, 05:17:42 AM »
The new herbs are definitely a change.
Now we have potions of spell resistance, Tenser's and other things we did not previously.
I think these affect mostly usefulness of cross classing (Oh why did I take so and so many caster levels when I can now do that with potions, is someone probably thinking) and PvP fights.

I can't say if this change is good or bad but it's there.

I'm too lazy to do any herbalism but I have seen a lot more potions of Heal lately.
At some point several people will probably carry 99 Heal potions and that is something to take in consideration when it comes to player versus player fights, if we don't want to turn them in to drinking contests.

We have had balance issues before with Time Stop and Greater Sanctuary and this could be the next thing.

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2018, 07:50:36 AM »
There are spells and feats that disable the use of items when used on a hostile player in PvP.

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2018, 08:04:27 AM »
I wouldn't be surprised if everyone's doing herbalism to some extent, especially with how expensive scrolls are now.

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2018, 08:29:36 AM »
I love the new herb combinations and potions, but some of them are too easy. Out of the new herbs I've tried the highest DC was 32. And that was for a damn powerful potion. I think some of the new ones need a higher DC. Like to me the misty willow herb is WAY too easy to brew. I think, for what it can make, it should be closer to that of a Heal potion. As for the duplicate herbs, those are neat, but they sort of make the honey lily and lesser ones useless since they seem to grow not far from the low level starting point.

I've not found out ALL the recipes yet (if we -can- do tensers that should be like dc 45+), but it does seem like some of them could use a re-evaluation of their DC.
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2018, 01:43:50 PM »
Some of the new tonics are a joke towards an sort of balance.

DM Erebus

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2018, 04:59:30 PM »

As the point has been raised, I believe that the role of herbalism in this server needs to be reassessed and reevaluated, especially so at this juncture at which it has become exceptionally more powerful.

Herbalism has long, and rightly, been considered as the 'superior' craft amongst the crafting systems.
It is by a wide margin the most accessible craft, owing to:

The small inventory size and weight of herbs.
Herbs are small, light, and can be even smaller and lighter by putting them into herbalism pouches before putting them in 60% magic bags.
This must be considered in comparison to weighty ores and ingots, bulky wood, weighty and bulky alchemical ingredients.
It is very easy to store vast numbers of herbs. It is not easy to store vast repositories of other crafting resources. I'll come back to this.

The low time investment needed to acquire herbs.
It is not necessary to invest as much time into Herbalism as it is for the other crafts for similar returns.
Herbs are found everywhere. You can pick them up when you're dungeoning, running deliveries or travelling from A-B. There is no need to sit and watch your PC smash boulders or cut down trees.

The low time investment in processing herbs into potions.
Unlike other crafts, there is just one process at one station to process herbs into potions.

These factors combine to create a funnel effect. PotM has always had power crafters - players who want to devote time to feeding the player economy, and that's fine. But power herbalists have a disproportionately huge pool of resources to draw from, because they are ubiquitous. Even considering the balancing factor that some herbs are hard to get, when you consider it in aggregate - dozens of players funneling into a limited number of power herbalists - it's still easy street.

What does this mean? It means that as it stands, with a small amount of determination, any mid-level PC could have immediate unrestricted access to:
Stoneskin, Spell Resistance, 50% Concealment, Energy Buffer, Haste, True Seeing and a Heal. Among others.

Now, I'd like to draw your attention to this:


* use/day - In most terms of NWN, a day only represents the time between resting, thus items that have uses per day are quickly becoming much more frequently used. Since these items never run dry, we could end up with individuals carrying such items for every needed situation, effectively making them more powerful than a spellcaster and incredibly hard to toy with as a DM.


This quote is from Bluebomber's guidelines for item submissions, specifically why we don't have use/day items. Because PCs stockpiling use/day items makes them effectively able to deal with whatever is thrown at them, counter to the server's horror ethos.

I'm bringing this up because I argue the range of spells available to ANY PC effectively makes them more powerful than a spellcaster.

Anecdotally I was told that the intended purpose of herbalism was to act as a crutch for mundane parties. That without an arcane buffer or cleric healer, a party could still 'fake it' with buffs and heals from potions. Alchemy was added because herbalism couldn't effectively replicate weapon buffs.

Incremental additions to the system has taken it beyond this initial intention, and I believe outside of one of the fundamental design choices of the server.

--

Rather than just moan, I'd like to make some specific suggestions that I think would help.
I don't think that tweaking DCs or recipies is the solution.
I also don't want to say 'Remove this or remove that', although I do believe that Stoneskin, Spell Resistance, True Seeing and Energy Buffer have taken us over the brink into the realm of 'able to deal with anything'..

I think a reasonable adjustment would be to put some sort of break on the production of potions.
Lower the spawn rate of herbs by 30% or more, to bring supply more in line with the supply of other crafting ingredients.

This would not penalise players who are engaged in crafting, by forcing more of their time into potion production, but it would slow down the supply.

Thankyou.

MAB77

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 05:03:41 PM »
I wholeheartedly agree that the herbalism upgrade is requiring some fine tunings. I'm trying to see myself how a better balance can be reached. It is my own observation too that some herbs spawn maybe a bit too much, others very rarely, and some perhaps not at all. I have yet to see confirmations that "Hanging Vines" or "Fruit of Geb" are spawning for instance.

In general though, I really don't see any significant balance issue with the influx of new potions. High level casters are still supremely above none casters. The new potions help bridge that imbalance between classes only slightly. They make things a bit easier, but I am not observing a significant increase in surviving Sithicus either. The new potions are not breaking the mod.

Which is not to say nothing should be done. On the contrary. It would be helpful if you could list me which herbs you deem spawn too often and which potions are too easy to make. Do explain why you feel so and what you suggest to correct this on a per potion basis.

I'd like also to address some of the comments so far in this thread

[...] A lot of the DCs are 22. I'm pretty sure invisibility is lower on the new recipe than the old, even though the old required two herbs and this only one. The 22 makes mastering the craft pretty easy and quick, especially given mass brewing, as it softens the jump from 20 to 25. [...]

The DCs are always either the same or just slightly above the original potion. This is on purpose for multiple reasons. We want high level characters to stay away from low level Barovia. Having a single herb to make a potion that would otherwise need several herbs is one of the incentive. Having the DC just a bit higher is also an incentive to have herbalists leave Barovia. We are aware these small DC difference may help in progressing in the craft slightly faster, but considering the amount of grinding that is still require for that, this isn't in itself an issue. Modifying the spawning rate of herbs is likely a more logical course of action than worrying about the DC.

[...] I especially don't understand why some of the new herbs duplicate already existing recipes. [...]

This is absolutely on purpose and it wont change. We want high level characters to find their herbs away from Low level Barovia. This therefore requires new means to make the existing potions. Also, they do not "just" duplicate existing potions. Every new herbs that can make an existing potions are also components for all-new potions. You have simply not discovered all possibilities yet.
 
[...] Finally, the potion bottles have become even harder to distinguish, partly from sheer quantity. But also it seems as though assumptions like "green = heal/curative" have been violated. [...]

Have you been to a grocery store? It's chaos out there! All those products with similar packaging trying to get your attention! :mrgreen: More seriously. As best as I could I used different models for both herbs and potions. I know some still use the same models. But to be frank, in medieval times you'd likely have an even harder time to differentiate everything. It's not done on purpose, but a byproduct of having so many herbs. I'll not adjust that and were not removing herbs. The balance in the amount of herbs spawning is the more pressing issue to attend.

Having so many combinations really does encourage OOC chatter because of the difficulty of learning through trial and error. The number of combinations that must be tried gets huge when you have so many herbs.

Which by the same account might be the very reason some players may think, that on the contrary, this offers even more quality RP time and opportunities. Which is truer, your argument or mine? Truth is neither. Neither are arguments. They are statements not supported or proven by any evidence. I do not control if a player will metagame or not. Nor do I believe that more options inherently leads to more metaging. It's really up to each individual. I therefore chose not to bother with the notion.

[...]As for too many herbs, well, it's the same amount of herb spawn points, it's more variety than more herbs.

If you don't want to pick something up, don't. If anything because of this, it has diluted existing herbs so it's  actually lowering how many potent potions you could make out of herbs gathered from any one place.[...]

I wish it was that simple, but not quite. Yes, it is the same amount of resources spawn points, give or take a few more added in some domains. However, each spawn point now have a higher chance of producing something. The previous herbs still spawn as often as before. The module is in effect spawning more herbs than before. Fortunately, this is something we can easily (and probably should) adjust.

[...] Now we have potions of spell resistance, Tenser's [...]

If you find the recipe for the Tenser potion do send it to me please! One might think I'd remember the recipies I put in, but ask DM Raven, I've been so lunatic of late! :P

Rest assured the Tenser potion is a loot item only. We are not adding that one to the craft.

[...]I love the new herb combinations and potions, but some of them are too easy. Out of the new herbs I've tried the highest DC was 32. And that was for a damn powerful potion.[...]
[...]Like to me the misty willow herb is WAY too easy to brew.[...]
[...]but it does seem like some of them could use a re-evaluation of their DC.[...]

The DCs were chosen usually compared to other potions of the same power level. But as I stated above, I feel balancing the amount of herbs that spawn is the more pressing issue.

The funny thing about the misty willow, it is the rarest of herb that can be spawned in the Mists, I think right now its about a 3% chance per spawn point. But you guys travel it so often that by default you gather a lot. Trust that I will find a solution to that one. Hoard those stoneskin brews, soon they will be worth a lot more.
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Danuvis

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 05:08:05 PM »
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2018, 05:22:11 PM »
I think a reasonable adjustment would be to put some sort of break on the production of potions.
Lower the spawn rate of herbs by 30% or more, to bring supply more in line with the supply of other crafting ingredients.

I largely agree with what you've said, CosmicRay, but I don't think lowering the spawn rate of things like Woundwart or other low level "learner" herbs is good for newbies. By all means let's tweak the supply of the higher level herbs, but let's be discerning. The main issue is at higher levels and with more powerful potions.
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2018, 05:24:26 PM »
I think a reasonable adjustment would be to put some sort of break on the production of potions.
Lower the spawn rate of herbs by 30% or more, to bring supply more in line with the supply of other crafting ingredients.

I largely agree with what you've said, CosmicRay, but I don't think lowering the spawn rate of things like Woundwart or other low level "learner" herbs is good for newbies. By all means let's tweak the supply of the higher level herbs, but let's be discerning. The main issue is at higher levels and with more powerful potions.

Good point well made.

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2018, 05:31:23 PM »
I largely agree with what you've said, CosmicRay, but I don't think lowering the spawn rate of things like Woundwart or other low level "learner" herbs is good for newbies. By all means let's tweak the supply of the higher level herbs, but let's be discerning. The main issue is at higher levels and with more powerful potions.

The script allows to do both actually. Drop the general spawning rate of herbs, while boosting the rate of particular herbs. This is likely the best course of action at this time. I simply need your help to identify the problematic herbs.

Misty willows is prime suspect number one, but what else?
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APorg

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2018, 05:36:47 PM »
IMO the main offenders are the herbs related to Stoneskin potions and Spell Resistance potions; those are very powerful spells that quite radically alter the buff economy dynamic.
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 05:42:48 PM »
1. Eliminate duplicate recipes and any new herbs that do nothing but duplicate others.

If anything, the new duplicate recipes and herbs for those aren't common enough yet IMO, as I feel it's still much easier to obtain the herbs for those potions in Vallaki.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 06:00:18 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2018, 06:05:05 PM »
It will be difficult to make them more common though. Having Perfidus, Blaustein, Ghastria or Har'Akir yield as many herb as Barovia is kind of impossible. Traveling Sithicus is deadly. We might be able to shift some over to Hazlan though.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2018, 07:13:57 PM »
Regarding game balance, consider what happened with scrolls--the increase in price of which, MAB, you argued in favor of :D

Quote
Petre was selling a ghostly visage potion for 1100g this morning when I checked.

But it's easy enough to make ghostly visage with a single, fairly common herb. Also from that discussion:

Actually the occasion for us to make this change was simply that there was a significant imbalance between item types - e.g. a wand, book, potion and scroll that was able to cast the exact same spell and with matching limitations would vary greatly in price depending on the item type. So we made them meet at a middle ground.

Was the scroll price then right and most other things too expensive? It's hard to say and it really comes down to how we weigh the consequences up against each other.

First of all it'll definitely make it harder to be purely self-reliant, but we don't generally consider that a bad thing. While we don't shun soloers, we will always focus on encouraging the party experience and balance the challenges toward that. After all we are a roleplay server and roleplay works best when you are not on your own - the shared narrative and experience is what distinguishes it and what we made this place to foster and hone. No discredit to the lone adventurer or writing your stories on your own but it's just not what we aim for. 

But of course scrolls are not just useful for soloing. They can equally be a great help when there's no spellcaster available or when teaming up with the available spellcasters doesn't become your character very well. This is where it gets more complicated though: On the one hand, we realise that there are periods where the player count is simply so low that there's just no spellcasters online, and in that event it will limit what you can do. But on the other hand we want people to be co-dependent - not just with those they are alike and can identify with, but even more so with those that they differ from. Why? Because we also believe that the meeting of differences, along with all the difficulties it entail, is a core drive for developing and furthering any narrative, and even - if we allow ourselves to be a bit philosophical - where roleplay can transcend just being your own creative outlet but also a unique way to explore something very fundamentally human. Over-ambitious you might say and perhaps so, but it's no coincidence that roleplay is professionally used to improve social understanding etc.


So in other words, while we don't want to outright prevent people from doing what they enjoy, we want to have a high degree of co-dependency across classes, races and backgrounds. And this admittedly takes higher priority than making things convenient, even if we always regret whatever frustration it may cause. We don't just do these changes carelessly.

In this regard, I believe potions are worse than scrolls. The gathering of herbs is largely a solitary endeavor and crafting potions tends to be done in isolation. All these herbs require a lot of bureaucratic overhead simply to sort them--again, a mindlessly repetitive activity that does little to enrich RP.

Whereas UMD is required to use a scroll (aside from spellcasters), virtually anyone who wants potions can craft or buy them at a much lower investment than scrolls. Why don't we have scribe scroll as a skill if not to limit the very same thing that a proliferation of potions allows?

To follow up on Soren's points, we should want even less self-reliance currently when the server has more players than ever. There is less excuse of not having anyone to party with, and many players have complained about the difficulty of finding dungeons that haven't been picked over.

Second, herbalism was already strengthened greatly by changing the stacking rules. Within a single 60 percent reduction bag it is possible to store more than 3,400 potions! True, they would weigh more than 130 lbs, but the pack mule carrying them can be perpetually bull strengthed out of that stash. In theory a second level barbarian could have many times the number of spell slots available to her as a 10th level mage, via potions.

Third, approximately three years ago herbalism was strengthened and at the time almost everyone who commented at that time said it had been made too strong. But here we are with it made even stronger. From that discussion:

My objection isn't necessarily to this specific example, but to the way it invalidates previously core aspects of a party. A well rounded party consists of those capable of dealing damage, dishing it out, healing the wounds, opening the locks, disarming the traps, curing the ailments and so on. Certain lower level buffs in consumable form is agreeable, but when you start adding the higher level variations as a consumable that's able to be reliably obtained under certain circumstances, it invalidates the roles of those that would normally come along, though I understand that part of this is because you can't expect to have a fully rounded party of seven people available at all times for the content you want to see, hence concessions need to be made. Naturally this is more of an overarching complaint towards design philosophy than this specific example, as this is just a symptom of the problem.

But any step in the right direction, I say. TL;DR; I'm for severely limiting access to these things, if not their total removal.

Instead, they've been increased and thus promoted self-reliance at a time when it needs to be discouraged.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 07:16:53 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 08:25:02 PM »
As both a master level herbalist and a high level spellcaster, I don't really think that the potion boon is nearly as bad as the OP implies.

First things first, adding new herbs doesn't make herbalism too easy. It doesn't affect the difficulty of herbalism at all. DC 22 herbs are not new, and the only thing that adding more has done is decentralize herb gathering routes. If you are picking your own herbs, you will still spend the same amount of time farming herbs, and if you buy your herbs, then it's not like you're actually getting any significant mileage out of having DC 22 herbs specifically. In fact, herbalism levels 5-30 are an absolute breeze to go through. The only time you will have difficulty levelling herbalism is at 1-4, when (depending on your stats) you may have difficulty succeeding *any* DCs, and levels 30+, when you begin to get less EXP for the majority of the recipes.

Regarding the new potions added, some are certainly useful. I have been playing a mundane character for the past few months and I do find myself yearning for some buffs, and potions are serviceable for some occasions. But that said, compared to a real spellcaster, most potion spells are absolute jokes. Spell Resistance potion? Even the Greater variant is easily busted through. Stoneskin? It'll save you from one or two rounds of combat at best. It's silly to compare a spellcaster to a potion hoarder because it's no contest. And this is without mentioning that most potions cast auxiliary spells like Freedom of Movement or Negative Energy Resistance. I have yet to see a Mage Armor potion, or a Greater Magic Weapon potion, and for good reason - these spells are essential. I believe that the best potions in the entire game are Haste, Greater Barkskin, and Heal. Haste is good because of its obvious combat benefits, and greater barkskin is good because it provides a source of AC that is less common than others. Heal is useful for obvious reasons. The general theme is the ubiquity of a potion's benefit.

I believe that the best solution to this apparent potion glut, is to simply add cooldowns to these potions.

//Edit: There is a bit more nuance in some potions that I failed to mention, such as the utility of the new stealth pots. I'll add to this thread later if I feel like organizing my thoughts better than in the above post, but the jist of what I'm trying to say is:
The vast majority of potions are only usual in a pinch, and their relative weakness begins to show when a real spellcaster gets involved. The best way to fix the potions that are powerful enough to be abused (or spammed) would be to add a cooldown to their cast.//
« Last Edit: October 08, 2018, 08:29:56 PM by Barris »
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 09:49:51 PM »
No more belladonna pls.
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 09:55:37 PM »
I don't see the new high level potions as problem, largely because of their caster level. The spell resistance potion for example requires some herbs from high level areas, and the SR won't help in those areas. Same with stoneskin. Most high level creatures have at least a +2 creature weapon. It really just pushed the server back closer to a crafting economy than a loot economy(which I think is better for several reasons). Most characters who can wander the mists and sithicus are more likely to sell these potions than use them for personal use.

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2018, 11:34:48 PM »
Imho the biggest offender is Potion of Heal. Heal is powerful class defining spell and access to them through potions cheapens the value of the real thing. I believe potions should be limited to a cap of Cure Critical and Critical regeneration.

It also makes for a culture of the rich getting richer, when you have ancient characters sitting on a mountain of Potions of Heal because they can. I'm of the opinion Potion of Heal should not be just discontinued, but disabled alltogether so existing hoards are made inert. If at all possible. Mind you, potion of Heal would be a balance wrecking thing on a high magic lvl 40 server, let alone PoTM.

The other potions, spell resistance, stoneskin etc provide weaker effects that are far easier to pierce and work around in both PvP and PvE.

Edit: Got rid of Tenser in my post seeing as it is not craftable.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 12:03:00 AM by Fungal Artillery »
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Nemesis 24

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2018, 11:37:08 PM »
As noted previously by the creator of said potions, Tensers transformation potions are a loot only item, not crafted.

HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2018, 09:50:38 AM »
Imho the biggest offender is Potion of Heal. Heal is powerful class defining spell and access to them through potions cheapens the value of the real thing. I believe potions should be limited to a cap of Cure Critical and Critical regeneration.

It also makes for a culture of the rich getting richer, when you have ancient characters sitting on a mountain of Potions of Heal because they can. I'm of the opinion Potion of Heal should not be just discontinued, but disabled alltogether so existing hoards are made inert. If at all possible. Mind you, potion of Heal would be a balance wrecking thing on a high magic lvl 40 server, let alone PoTM.

The other potions, spell resistance, stoneskin etc provide weaker effects that are far easier to pierce and work around in both PvP and PvE.


I agree. In my experience, potion of heal has been the only brew that causes any real issue with server dynamics.

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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2018, 10:29:48 AM »
TBH I kinda agree that Heal is too powerful for a craftable potion, though that horse has somewhat bolted. Indeed even before it was added to herbalism, there was a way to grind Heal potions...
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Re: New herbs make herbalism too easy and probably too powerful
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2018, 11:22:09 AM »
I honestly haven’t found Heal to be a huge issue. As Aprog mentioned, there was a previous way to get Heal potions that I think was more disruptive to the server than obtaining them through herbalism.

As the highest DC potion available and requiring 8 herbs, it’s not possible for a whole lot of people to crank these out like crazy. The caster level of the potion is also significantly lower than where the spell will max out. While this could change the outcome of a dangerous fight or PvP encounter, its definitely not going to replace a healer.