Author Topic: Giant Werebat  (Read 1419 times)

Ken14

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Giant Werebat
« on: September 29, 2018, 12:51:49 AM »


Before I say anything : Are giant werebats in ravenloft supposed to be invincible?


I ask this, because during a recent attack by one, it certainly was the case. I get that they're supposed to be incredibly strong. In fact, I never expected to even win the fight! Maybe get in a few hits before needing to retreat.


It started out normally. 43 AB on the first attack, holy carp! I was getting hit a ton, obviously, not being ready for a sudden attack.


And then I hit it. 0 damage. Not 'resisted X amount of damage'. Just plain O damage. Which I'm pretty sure is DM immunity.


The sudden jump in AB, from 43 to 78, though? That just had me going all 'WTF?'.


Now, maybe I missed something here. Maybe that's a werebat power I'm unaware of.


It just screamed 'don't bother trying to fight it' and not even in a good, ravenloftian despair kind of way. Just a 'don't bother, you're not gonna win whatever you do, you're getting railroaded into losing' kinda way.

And that's not really fun to have happen to you.


In short : Nearly impossible to beat? That's great! LITERALLY impossible to beat? Not so much.


Just my two cents on the matter.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2018, 12:58:18 AM »
This creature attack is the restart of a monster mystery plot that has been running for about a year.

No, you are not supposed to beat it by force.  Consider this the lesson I guess.

Ken14

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2018, 01:15:09 AM »
I never said anything about being able to beat it. I just wished to comment on the Damage Immunity.

Giving it wildly fluctuating, but generally insanely high AB? Sure! It's a massive werebat. That makes sense.

The DM immunity just killed my sense of immersion. It couldn't be damaged in any fashion. If it had 30/+6 DR, I could at least have the sense of it being that horrifyingly tough, and maybe an desperate attack would've lightly scuffed it. Would that be likely? No. Would it have healed two seconds later? Sure!

 But at least you get the sense of being in an actual fight. If the thing has outright immunity to your attacks, it just feels like getting railroaded.





Iridni Ren

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2018, 01:22:05 AM »
If you're checking AB and DR, though, I would argue that your immersion is already broken :P

(Aren't all stats considered OOC?)

Yes, I can see where running into a creature you have no chance against could feel as though you were being railroaded, but I would hope that the DM has in fact left open a way for the player still to win--just not through simple combat. This would then seem comparable to me to having a door that requires a specific key to open.

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Ken14

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2018, 01:46:33 AM »
I don't think it is breaking immersion. When I hit something, I get my sense of how much it hurt by the damage I did.

Plain O damage just seemed…...Like I wasn"t really hitting -anything-. Like I was fighting in a cutscene, if that makes sense.

But -again-, I'm not talking about winning or anything! I fully expected to lose that bout. But seeing that plain O damage just made me cringe.

There was no sense of maybe being able to wound the beast or at least stun it with something, to get away. Just plain 'nope'.

I agree that you shouldn't be able to beat it by simple combat, but it shouldn't be overly obvious that combat won't work, either. Otherwhise, no-one will engage it and get slaughtered, they'll just start running immediatedly, because why bother trying to fight it?


But maybe I'm underestimating how stubborn some folks get. I know my elf will be running from now on, and perhaps that was the intention.

Edit: To be clear : I'm not saying that a simple fight -should- be able to defeat this thing, nor any other DM-spawned monsters. You are absolutely right that mere combat shouldn't be able to kill them off.

I am saying, however, that it seems, to me, that it feels more natural if it such a creature has ingame resistances to damage and/or spells, instead of outright DM immunity to all things, to give the illusion of a possibility at being able to win.


My two cents on the matter. Which I've now uttered, so that'll be my last post surrounding this, most likely.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 02:11:53 AM by Ken14 »

Salty Tears

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2018, 03:05:24 AM »
I suggest taking Aaron burr's advice. This server isn't supposed to have every single mob be beatable and killable. There is real danger for characters here. A mortal can only do so much. Even at level 20.


Ken14

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2018, 11:03:16 AM »
I'm apparently not being clear about this: I am NOT saying that every mob should be killable.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but plain damage immunity to all things seems to be more the domain of eldritch abominations, demigods and assorted.

Though it could be argued that entities like the headless horseman indeed do fall under that category. And if the werebat in question is also of similar origin, then I can certainly see why it's used. Those are genuine urban tales, myths that you don't fight, but (maybe) survive against.


But a werebeast, no matter how big, would have, in my opinion, freakishly high resistances and fast healing, not outright immunity to damage. Again, I'm not talking about beatable levels of resistances, even for lvl 20.


To me, if I would have (somehow) managed to hurt it ( like, 5 or 10 damage), there would be some IC hope that it can be beaten.....But when it just heals up to pristine status moments later? That's when the 'ohshit' horror ensues!


But still, this is a minor issue. If I encounter this beastie again, I'll simply aim to survive and delay it, giving others time to escape,  and treat it as some mist-empowered monster.


Truely the last post this time!

ladylena

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2018, 11:04:44 AM »
It can be beaten, you just need to find out it's weakness!
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2018, 11:57:08 AM »
Quote
Maybe I'm in the minority, but plain damage immunity to all things seems to be more the domain of eldritch abominations, demigods and assorted.

A lot of the creature effects in DM encounters are set on the fly by the DMs. I've seen DMs spawn things that got dropped to near death almost instantly because they underestimated the party, so then they have to really quickly change settings to turn them immune or whatever so the creature won't get killed and ruin the event.
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Ken14

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2018, 12:19:58 PM »

A lot of the creature effects in DM encounters are set on the fly by the DMs. I've seen DMs spawn things that got dropped to near death almost instantly because they underestimated the party, so then they have to really quickly change settings to turn them immune or whatever so the creature won't get killed and ruin the event.


I hadn't actually considered that, admittedly. I'd still prefer high resistances and fast healing, but if it's to keep the monster alive,then sure. Make it immune.

It certainly didn't seem like it needed it, but that might've been intentional.  :P

Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2018, 04:02:22 PM »
What if say it had nigh invulnerability and every attack just did only 1 damage point to it? Can that be coded?

Nemesis 24

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2018, 06:57:44 PM »
EDIT.

Without going into any detail, I will say that there is a fundamental flaw in one of your key assertions you are basing this argument upon.  If you want to know more, I would strongly recommend finding out in character from those investigating the matter, and they do exist in game as PCs!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 07:04:38 PM by Nemesis 24 »

Ken14

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Re: Giant Werebat
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2018, 10:15:06 PM »
EDIT.

Without going into any detail, I will say that there is a fundamental flaw in one of your key assertions you are basing this argument upon.  If you want to know more, I would strongly recommend finding out in character from those investigating the matter, and they do exist in game as PCs!

Indeed? Then I will certainly see what I can find out, then!