Author Topic: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback  (Read 8774 times)

BattleCupcake

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2018, 02:42:35 PM »
Is it possible to make him 'good' vs dungeon bosses (only) ?
I mean as himself being a 'Monster hunter' , he should go of planning to hunt vs 'real monsters' , not 'casual' ones.
Either having some kind of feats he can choose to be good against those specific bosses ( as example +3 dmg / ab vs hags, or +3 ac vs hags, or any other buff) , or to make the bosses to be weaker against monster hunter attacks. (As example -5 AC when attacked by Monster Hunter).
Will this keep the vision of what the Monster Hunter class should be ?

 I didnt made any research about the class, but read only this post about how weak it is. Thought this idea would both make him more useful and will keep the vision of the class.

The Prc is not meant so much for dungeoning and certainly not meant to be a boss killer.

Do remember though. The monster hunter is a template based on Rudolph Van Richten / Abraham Van Helsing. The stereotype being one of a scholar, not of a warrior. They do hunt down monsters, but doing so using their considerable knowledge to lead a party of people to take down the beasts when they are at their weakest through guile and strategy.

Raising the BaB or HP does not fit the vision of what the Monster Hunter stands for. However, we (the dev team) do agree that the class could use some help to make it more useful and versatile to fully live up their reputation as scholars/hunters. We will increase the number of skill points for the class and grant access to more class skills such as Open Lock and Disarm Traps.

The full details will be provided when the change will occur (no timeframe yet).

I think giving MH open lock and disarm trap skills isn't really the right way to go about it. While the vision the dev team has forged of the monster hunter is good on paper, mechanically it doesn't hold up. Technically speaking, anyone can take a group of people and lead them to monsters without a degree. I think that HP or saving throw increase would really assist in Monster Hunters being less of a burden on a group.

I don't think giving MH rogue skills solves any of their problems. A Monster Hunter isn't another rogue class; we don't need one (crypt breaker, grimetrekker, assassin are enough), nor is that the vision of anyone that's playing one right now, I'm fairly sure.

They need an actual boost to their primary ability: being rewarded for great study of their monsters. I think if we want monster hunters to have some flavor rewarding them for their great study but leaving them with relatively small general combat prowess, we should power up their Favored Enemy ability, such as somewhere along the lines of Bane of Enemies. Giving them a unique spell, like how Blackguards get Abyssal Might and Paladins get Holy Sword, may actually accomplish this very well.

Just my 2 cents. A monster hunter's combat ability is honestly very hampering both to themselves, and their party, as of this time.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2018, 02:46:16 PM »
To summarize my opinion on the Monster Hunter PRC; I don't quite see the point in taking the class when I could just take a combination of other, more effective classes and simply roleplay it as a professional monster hunter. The PRC doesn't bring anything special; to me it represents a diverse array of strange and sometimes incongruent features in an attempt to feel like a jack of all trades, master of none, when it doesn't even seem to achieve that to any particular success.

I'd like to see the class given an exclusive feature where on rest they can choose to produce items from mundane/semi-rare materials to produce unique one-use items for their hunting purposes. For example taking a silvered mirror and giving it a single use ability to repel lesser vampires or using belladonna to create a special blade varnish that inflicts a poisoning effect on Lycanthropes. Other servers do similar things with the Rogue class where they can produce caltrops and poisons per rest.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #27 on: September 24, 2018, 03:54:38 PM »
Could possibly give them a bardsong like ability that relies on Lore instead of Perform? Might be something to consider.

Pav

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #28 on: September 24, 2018, 04:36:32 PM »
To harp on the last 3 points:

BattleCupcake: I think a unique damage spell to their weapon would be great. Ideally, the PnP mechanics should be implemented first.

Grendel: In PnP there's the Craft Talisman ability, but it was excluded from the original two points because PotM doesn't implement that kind of stuff. Would be neat to have.

Bestbardna: That's not really what the class is about, and, again, ideally, it should be more inline with the PnP mechanics.

APorg

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #29 on: September 24, 2018, 04:40:57 PM »
Bard Song going off Lore might not even be possible... Bard Song's requirement of Perform is probably hard-coded, no?
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Pav

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2018, 04:49:27 PM »
Bard Song going off Lore might not even be possible... Bard Song's requirement of Perform is probably hard-coded, no?

Same workaround as the Mora domain is available, I believe.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2018, 08:03:51 PM »
So I was told that the class at its current design was inspired by the Witch Hunter class from "Secrets of the Dread Realm". Instead, why not use the PrC from the 3.5 Player's Handbook for Ravenloft (most feats of which were already mentioned in the first post)? It is much more mechanically viable and most of its feats already exist in the game module or are easily implemented/edited. If a way could be found to include its more unique paths, that would be great, too, but not critical.

A summary can be found here.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2018, 08:22:01 PM »
So I was told that the class at its current design was inspired by the Witch Hunter class from "Secrets of the Dread Realm". Instead, why not use the PrC from the 3.5 Player's Handbook for Ravenloft (most feats of which were already mentioned in the first post)? It is much more mechanically viable and most of its feats already exist in the game module or are easily implemented/edited. If a way could be found to include its more unique paths, that would be great, too, but not critical.

A summary can be found here.

Without heavily altering it, there is no way to implement the 3.5 version of the PrC in NwN. We initially considered it but opted against it for that reason.

When discussing feasibility of implementation, I always encourage people to actually learn the topic they are talking about. I encourage you to open the toolset, learn scripting and 2da work; it's not rocket science and would allow you to make suggestions that can be considered.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2018, 08:26:02 PM »
So I was told that the class at its current design was inspired by the Witch Hunter class from "Secrets of the Dread Realm". Instead, why not use the PrC from the 3.5 Player's Handbook for Ravenloft (most feats of which were already mentioned in the first post)? It is much more mechanically viable and most of its feats already exist in the game module or are easily implemented/edited. If a way could be found to include its more unique paths, that would be great, too, but not critical.

A summary can be found here.

Without heavily altering it, there is no way to implement the 3.5 version of the PrC in NwN. We initially considered it but opted against it for that reason.

When discussing feasibility of implementation, I always encourage people to actually learn the topic they are talking about.

But there is. Ignoring the paths, which yes, can be a problem to implement, renaming Favored Enemy and changing its properties is feasible. Adding existing feats and making new ones, is feasible (Slippery Mind, Hunter's Confidence), which has been demonstrated in past HAK updates.

If that much is too much, then changing the numbers of statistics in the .2da to compensate for the lack of features shouldn't be.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 08:29:03 PM by Pav »

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2018, 08:32:28 PM »
Quote
But there is. Ignoring the paths, which yes, can be a problem to implement, renaming Favored Enemy and changing its properties is feasible. Adding existing feats and making new ones, is feasible (Slippery Mind, Hunter's Confidence), which has been demonstrated in past HAK updates.

Humor me. Tell me in detail how all these things are feasible. Tell me how you will rework Favored Enemy, how you will implement saving throw bonus vs enchantment and how you will alter Slippery Mind. If it's feasible, then you know how to do it or someone who can explain it to you so you can relay it.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2018, 08:42:39 PM »
Quote
But there is. Ignoring the paths, which yes, can be a problem to implement, renaming Favored Enemy and changing its properties is feasible. Adding existing feats and making new ones, is feasible (Slippery Mind, Hunter's Confidence), which has been demonstrated in past HAK updates.

Humor me. Tell me in detail how all these things are feasible. Tell me how you will rework Favored Enemy, how you will implement saving throw bonus vs enchantment and how you will alter Slippery Mind. If it's feasible, then you know how to do it or someone who can explain it to you so you can relay it.

Heavy alterations are not what I have in mind when I think of implementing Slippery Mind as it is, since we already give it to other PrCs.

The saves do not have to be versus Enchantments, but rather vs. Mind-affecting.

Altering the property as written in the files for Favored Enemy is what I am looking into as we speak to make sure I am not dreaming.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 08:46:37 PM by Pav »

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2018, 08:45:03 PM »
Quote
Heavy alterations are not what I have in mind when I think of implementing Slippery Mind as it is, since we already give it to other PrCs.

The saves do not have to be versus Enchantments, but rather vs. Mind-affecting.

Altering the property as written in the files for Favored Enemy is what I am looking into as we speak.

Fair enough for the first two; these are two compromises you are proposing to make it workable. Once again though, since you didn't answer the actual question; how would you alter Favored Enemy? I want the details of how you would proceed to do something I am telling you is not feasible. You clearly know something I don't so I'm curious.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2018, 08:59:33 PM »
I'm not the best with .2da manipulation and coding, but I do understand the workload behind creating a similar script to Favored Enemy (for Monster Hunters) within the PotM system would be time-consuming. Definitely possible with NWNx, but if I heard properly, we don't use it?

It's been four years since I've dabbled with .2da edits. I couldn't possibly recite the exact process I think I would use to recreate a feat that functioned like this, but I am quite confident that I know it's possible. I am far more interested in hearing the exact "why" of why this is not possible with or without the use of NWNx.
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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2018, 09:02:00 PM »
I'm not the best with .2da manipulation and coding, but I do understand the workload behind creating a similar script to Favored Enemy (for Monster Hunters) within the PotM system would be time-consuming. Definitely possible with NWNx, but if I heard properly, we don't use it?

It's been four years since I've dabbled with .2da edits. I couldn't possibly recite the exact process I think I would use to recreate a feat that functioned like this, but I am quite confident that I know it's possible. I am far more interested in hearing the exact "why" of why this is not possible with or without the use of NWNx.

It's not really feasible with NwNx either; we use NwNx aplenty here as well. You can choose to trust me on this one or prove me wrong. After all you are the ones wanting to change it so the onus should be on you. If you can demonstrate that there is a feasible way to implement this, I'll be open to considering it. After all, I also would have preferred to implement the PnP version of Studied Foe but came to the conclusion it was impossible.

Considering I've added a few hundred feats over the past year and a few classes, I feel my knowledge is pretty good on the topic but eh, you guys know better.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2018, 09:06:38 PM »
Pinning it back on us does you no good when I just admitted I wouldn't have the exact idea of how to go about implementing code over the existing functionality of the server. Instead of perhaps denouncing us and being unnecessarily belligerent when I am being polite about wanting to know about the roadblock you encountered, as mine is the lack of apparent knowledge.
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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2018, 09:12:45 PM »
Pinning it back on us does you no good when I just admitted I wouldn't have the exact idea of how to go about implementing code over the existing functionality of the server. Instead of perhaps denouncing us and being unnecessarily belligerent when I am being polite about wanting to know about the roadblock you encountered, as mine is the lack of apparent knowledge.

Sword, sorry about the tone but it is tiring and demotivating to always have to be second guessed by people who don't bother to learn what they are talking about. It's easy to learn how to do development in NwN; scripting is an object-based language that is straightforward, so is 2da work. It's no great secret and there are even plenty of tutorials online. You could spend some of your play time on learning that, up to you. It would perhaps let you come up with a solution to the aforementioned problem.

Until then, you can choose to trust me or not on the matter, that's really up to you but in any case it won't be changed until someone finds a solution to the problem.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2018, 11:35:20 PM »
Pinning it back on us does you no good when I just admitted I wouldn't have the exact idea of how to go about implementing code over the existing functionality of the server. Instead of perhaps denouncing us and being unnecessarily belligerent when I am being polite about wanting to know about the roadblock you encountered, as mine is the lack of apparent knowledge.

Sword, sorry about the tone but it is tiring and demotivating to always have to be second guessed by people who don't bother to learn what they are talking about. It's easy to learn how to do development in NwN; scripting is an object-based language that is straightforward, so is 2da work. It's no great secret and there are even plenty of tutorials online. You could spend some of your play time on learning that, up to you. It would perhaps let you come up with a solution to the aforementioned problem.

Until then, you can choose to trust me or not on the matter, that's really up to you but in any case it won't be changed until someone finds a solution to the problem.

It wasn't my intention to suggest the impossible, I'm more than comfortable admitting I have 0 knowledge on how the coding works. But we are trying to offer ways and suggestions that would better the class greatly. As countless others have mentioned, Monster Hunter as it is is a mix of ideas that dont truly give it the right feel. On paper, a monster scholar would be good, but in game? Anyone with an int higher than 13 can proport to know what to do when it comes to a monster. A new variety of feats would be truly more welcome than increasing the number of skills and points we get. I wont pretend that I know the level of work you are faced with to make it happen, because I have no idea. But something, be it BAB, Saving throws or unique feats need to happen.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 11:37:58 PM by PrimetheGrime »

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2018, 07:58:10 AM »
Quote
It wasn't my intention to suggest the impossible, I'm more than comfortable admitting I have 0 knowledge on how the coding works. But we are trying to offer ways and suggestions that would better the class greatly. As countless others have mentioned, Monster Hunter as it is is a mix of ideas that dont truly give it the right feel. On paper, a monster scholar would be good, but in game? Anyone with an int higher than 13 can proport to know what to do when it comes to a monster. A new variety of feats would be truly more welcome than increasing the number of skills and points we get. I wont pretend that I know the level of work you are faced with to make it happen, because I have no idea. But something, be it BAB, Saving throws or unique feats need to happen.

That's a different point though; there is a difference between what is wanted and what is feasible. Actually learning how things work would allow you to give more constructive feedback; it's easy to make requests and suggestions, it's harder to make suggestions that can realistically be implemented. That being said, MAB shares the same vision as I do about the PrC. It's not meant to be a frontline class and only frontline classes get full BAB in NwN (fighter/barbarian/ranger/others I may have forgotten to list). It's essentially a class that dips in different other classes, a jack of all trades of sorts. A character who, through time, picked up tricks to hunt down monsters. Canon-wise, if you look at all the Van Richten adventures, he spends most of his time researching the monster he is about to hunt then assembles a party of adventurers to hunt them down. He usually partners with a caster, a fighter, etc., to go after the creatures of the night.

I know NwN is a different beast altogether but I don't see BAB making this class feel more distinctive. It's a buff for sure, but then any class could benefit from more BAB, better saves, more HP, etc. That's a very generic suggestion. All it does is empower the class but it doesn't give it any sort of flavor.

And if you look at Studied Foe in PnP, both in 3E and 3.5, all it does is give +1 to AB/saves vs your studied foe, no more. It's actually weaker than Favored Enemy since it doesn't scale up. The class isn't built to be an offensive character, that's the realm of the ranger.

That being said, I am considering a unique ability for them, but I haven't yet decided what exactly.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2018, 08:39:58 AM »
Quote
It wasn't my intention to suggest the impossible, I'm more than comfortable admitting I have 0 knowledge on how the coding works. But we are trying to offer ways and suggestions that would better the class greatly. As countless others have mentioned, Monster Hunter as it is is a mix of ideas that dont truly give it the right feel. On paper, a monster scholar would be good, but in game? Anyone with an int higher than 13 can proport to know what to do when it comes to a monster. A new variety of feats would be truly more welcome than increasing the number of skills and points we get. I wont pretend that I know the level of work you are faced with to make it happen, because I have no idea. But something, be it BAB, Saving throws or unique feats need to happen.

That's a different point though; there is a difference between what is wanted and what is feasible. Actually learning how things work would allow you to give more constructive feedback; it's easy to make requests and suggestions, it's harder to make suggestions that can realistically be implemented. That being said, MAB shares the same vision as I do about the PrC. It's not meant to be a frontline class and only frontline classes get full BAB in NwN (fighter/barbarian/ranger/others I may have forgotten to list). It's essentially a class that dips in different other classes, a jack of all trades of sorts. A character who, through time, picked up tricks to hunt down monsters. Canon-wise, if you look at all the Van Richten adventures, he spends most of his time researching the monster he is about to hunt then assembles a party of adventurers to hunt them down. He usually partners with a caster, a fighter, etc., to go after the creatures of the night.

I know NwN is a different beast altogether but I don't see BAB making this class feel more distinctive. It's a buff for sure, but then any class could benefit from more BAB, better saves, more HP, etc. That's a very generic suggestion. All it does is empower the class but it doesn't give it any sort of flavor.

And if you look at Studied Foe in PnP, both in 3E and 3.5, all it does is give +1 to AB/saves vs your studied foe, no more. It's actually weaker than Favored Enemy since it doesn't scale up. The class isn't built to be an offensive character, that's the realm of the ranger.

That being said, I am considering a unique ability for them, but I haven't yet decided what exactly.

I understand both you and MAB see the class as a scholar jack of all trades, and in theory, that would work really well. But, unlike van richten who has access to anything the plot would require him to need, we have a limited supply of everything. We can utilise spells, though the majority of them are incredibly situational and most of the time would be for the most part a one hit wonder, we have a limited amount of skills to put into various focuses, which for the most part will end up being lore, spot, search and listen, our BaB is such that we can offer nothing to the party itself, forcing us to only be able to describe and lead parties to a monster. Now, this would be fantastic, but the biggest problem with this being that Players Do not need monster hunters. In their minds, they have with them: A buffer, a martial front liner, a tank and a healer. Why would they need the monster hunter? To tell them about the monster/creature? They already know enough about it that they're going after it, they dont -need- us. And this to me is what has most of us Monster Hunters disappointed. We arent needed at all in either combat or roleplay. Countless classes can proport to be monster hunters and have the lore or knowledge to back it up. If we are indeed meant to be scholars and jacks of all trades, we need -something- that makes that unique. Now, I don't know what is feasible, I'm hoping as we continue to go back and forth that we can help each other in that retrospect and find the thing that monster hunter desperately needs. Because as they are, they're not needed.

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2018, 03:02:48 AM »
Quote
It wasn't my intention to suggest the impossible, I'm more than comfortable admitting I have 0 knowledge on how the coding works. But we are trying to offer ways and suggestions that would better the class greatly. As countless others have mentioned, Monster Hunter as it is is a mix of ideas that dont truly give it the right feel. On paper, a monster scholar would be good, but in game? Anyone with an int higher than 13 can proport to know what to do when it comes to a monster. A new variety of feats would be truly more welcome than increasing the number of skills and points we get. I wont pretend that I know the level of work you are faced with to make it happen, because I have no idea. But something, be it BAB, Saving throws or unique feats need to happen.

That's a different point though; there is a difference between what is wanted and what is feasible. Actually learning how things work would allow you to give more constructive feedback; it's easy to make requests and suggestions, it's harder to make suggestions that can realistically be implemented. That being said, MAB shares the same vision as I do about the PrC. It's not meant to be a frontline class and only frontline classes get full BAB in NwN (fighter/barbarian/ranger/others I may have forgotten to list). It's essentially a class that dips in different other classes, a jack of all trades of sorts. A character who, through time, picked up tricks to hunt down monsters. Canon-wise, if you look at all the Van Richten adventures, he spends most of his time researching the monster he is about to hunt then assembles a party of adventurers to hunt them down. He usually partners with a caster, a fighter, etc., to go after the creatures of the night.

I know NwN is a different beast altogether but I don't see BAB making this class feel more distinctive. It's a buff for sure, but then any class could benefit from more BAB, better saves, more HP, etc. That's a very generic suggestion. All it does is empower the class but it doesn't give it any sort of flavor.

And if you look at Studied Foe in PnP, both in 3E and 3.5, all it does is give +1 to AB/saves vs your studied foe, no more. It's actually weaker than Favored Enemy since it doesn't scale up. The class isn't built to be an offensive character, that's the realm of the ranger.

That being said, I am considering a unique ability for them, but I haven't yet decided what exactly.

I understand both you and MAB see the class as a scholar jack of all trades, and in theory, that would work really well. But, unlike van richten who has access to anything the plot would require him to need, we have a limited supply of everything. We can utilise spells, though the majority of them are incredibly situational and most of the time would be for the most part a one hit wonder, we have a limited amount of skills to put into various focuses, which for the most part will end up being lore, spot, search and listen, our BaB is such that we can offer nothing to the party itself, forcing us to only be able to describe and lead parties to a monster. Now, this would be fantastic, but the biggest problem with this being that Players Do not need monster hunters. In their minds, they have with them: A buffer, a martial front liner, a tank and a healer. Why would they need the monster hunter? To tell them about the monster/creature? They already know enough about it that they're going after it, they dont -need- us. And this to me is what has most of us Monster Hunters disappointed. We arent needed at all in either combat or roleplay. Countless classes can proport to be monster hunters and have the lore or knowledge to back it up. If we are indeed meant to be scholars and jacks of all trades, we need -something- that makes that unique. Now, I don't know what is feasible, I'm hoping as we continue to go back and forth that we can help each other in that retrospect and find the thing that monster hunter desperately needs. Because as they are, they're not needed.


I'm going to ask both EO and PrimetheGrime something that I think will drive home some of the modest frustration behind the Monster Hunter PrC. Referenced above, it has been mentioned that the 'shtick' of Monster Hunter is, in essence, studying monsters, then finding others to go hunt them down, like van Richten, on whom the class is modeled after. However, compared to the PnP adventure we've pulled Monster Hunter from, knowledge for these creatures was represented by having a number of ranks in a skill of that sort. This is not the case, in Neverwinter Nights, unfortunately, and the pool of resources that the Monster Hunter PrC-related RP pulls from is not necessarily exclusive to them, unless concerted efforts are made by the DM Team to only have certain unnamed secret societies reveal themselves arbitrarily to exclusively Monster Hunter PrC's from now on, and that said Monster Hunter PrC's retain their forbidden knowledge wholly to themselves, which is counter intuitive both to the spirit of the class, and those secret societies.

The questions I have to ask are as follows:

- "Why should I take Monster Hunter?"
- "Why do I need to take Monster Hunter to hunt monsters?"
- "What tangible benefit does this class offer me in roleplay?"
- "Why can't other classes do this job better?"
- "Specifically, why can't a Ranger do this job more effectively? It has the skill points, more universally applicable spells to buff itself with, more powerful spells (see: Banebow) and as a class specializes in tracking, hunting, and other such activities in both Urban and Outdoor environments (depending on flavor) and to top it off, has access to Favored Enemy, one of the core features of the Monster Hunter PRC."
- "Why can a Ranger not simply read the van Richten books, whatever secret texts are around, and have a sufficient Lore and intelligence stats to perform in steed of a Monster Hunter?"

The last two were kind of redundant, but serve a fair purpose. You are required to approach a board of individuals who have to grant you the privilege of being allowed to mechanically choose this class, which is regulated behind a PrC gate. You are asked to go through the effort to document, type up, and be given permission to essentially play a (limited) Arcane Ranger, with a lower BAB, worse spells, and fewer Skill Points. It's a niche that doesn't currently have a place in how the server handles monster encounters, because it lacks mechanical and RP justification for choosing it, other than, "Well, it's for role play purposes, my character has devoted his/her life to studying the Lycanthrope, the Vampire, the [Insert Monster], and this PrC is called Monster Hunter." -- But why couldn't you just do that, but better, as a different class?

The only thing I can fathom is that it's intended for characters who weren't written to hunt monsters, but just -- happened upon it, and their base class lacked those benefits. I.E., a Fighter or a Rogue, or a mixture of the two, or something. But if you were making a character tomorrow that you decided would be a Monster Hunter at one point or another, Ranger more or less invalidates the Monster Hunter PrC. They're going to do their job, but better. Every time.

Arawn

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2018, 03:24:08 AM »
- "Why should I take Monster Hunter?"

Because it’s cool and fits your RP.

- "Why do I need to take Monster Hunter to hunt monsters?"

You don’t.

- "What tangible benefit does this class offer me in roleplay?"

It’s cool.

- "Why can't other classes do this job better?"

Sometimes they can, depending on job, character and build.

- “Ranger ranger ranger”

So play a ranger.

Class lore and “feel” matters. It’s like saying if a bard can’t melee it’s completely invalidated by fighter.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 03:28:47 AM by Arawn »
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PrimetheGrime

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2018, 04:20:29 AM »
That being said, my interpretation of the Monster hunter was that they -could- be Scholar-like or Combative, a hybrid being possible between the two. A friend of mine mirrored Monster hunters as being more like George Weathermay in terms of character, and after looking up the man himself, it's quite appealing. Nonetheless, To answer your questions posed;


I chose monster hunter for the aspect of both monstrous roleplay encounters and the research and preparation necessary to hunt said creatures, each with their own niches and weaknesses to both exploit and uncover. Taking monster hunter should mean you are approved to undertake dangerous and perilous jobs against monsters the likes of which most if not all other classes would be unequipped for. (I don't mean to make this sound like they should solo things, far from it, but they should be able to hold their own in at the very least average situations.) Choosing monster hunter is signing yourself up for hours of poring over documents, manuscripts and hearsay from various sources in various locations, Researching and examining creature/monster behaviour to better determine your next move, whether it be to attack/ambush it or to simply gather further information before making a decision, establishing contacts of various type and repute to better equip yourself whether by knowledge or by armament and inevitably move into direct conflict with said monster/being with the culmination of your efforts being both your reward and your safety line.

tldr: Monster Hunters are there to hunt the most frightening and dangerous of monsters, that's their job and they're damned good at it.

This can be utilised for just about every question posed. Sadly at this moment in time, a Ranger is a better choice to hunt the big bad monsters and I do hope at least from a RP perspective this changes. While class lore and 'feel' does indeed matter, defining the monster hunters class is more difficult than just saying he can hunt monsters. As someone who's been involved in a few monstrous kills, I can tell you we do A LOT of study, research and information gathering before we make a move. I'd say that all my brethren monster hunters, like myself do more preparation for the hunt than the actual hunt. There is a lot to collect and set up, be it potions, varnishes, powders, RP specific items (such as Garlic) Actual weapons tailored for that said creature, Gear that would better suit them in said environment, etc etc. We work hard for the hunts we do make no mistake.


BraveSirRobin

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2018, 04:34:30 AM »
- "Why should I take Monster Hunter?"

Because it’s cool and fits your RP.

- "Why do I need to take Monster Hunter to hunt monsters?"

You don’t.

- "What tangible benefit does this class offer me in roleplay?"

It’s cool.

- "Why can't other classes do this job better?"

Sometimes they can, depending on job, character and build.

- “Ranger ranger ranger”

So play a ranger.

Class lore and “feel” matters. It’s like saying if a bard can’t melee it’s completely invalidated by fighter.

I'm sorry, but what makes it cool? Because the very people who play the class, and have decided to go through and take the plunge to envelop themselves within it are all of the opinion it is lackluster. Glossing over my points and belittling them doesn't change the fact that they're all valid points, which your response only tells me that you..

A) Don't have an answer
B) Don't care

It doesn't actually *offer* anything but a class name on your character sheet. I mean, it's not even like People's Champion, which is also lackluster, but at the very least offers something. Hallowed Witch is frankly the only prestige class that has been implemented thus far that is worth going for. The conversation isn't really that it has to be mechanically advantageous, it just has to offer something that you can't get somewhere else, otherwise, why on earth would you care to go through the effort for it.

It offers specific role play opportunities you cannot replace or compensate for elsewhere. It makes you a proper Witch, it has specific abilities which represent your creed, and you become a Divine and Arcane spellcaster, weaving magic together unlike any other class. Can other classes beat it? Yeah. But it's *cool.* It gives you a new concept to play with mechanically, and in role play. It is akin to a Palemaster, a Dwarven Defender, a Weaponsmaster or a Dragon Disciple.

People's Champion gives you at the very least a gimmick to play with, and a slightly different direction to take clerics, mechanically. Roleplay-wise, you don't need to be a People's Champion to be a People's Champion, since the actions a People's Champion takes, if violating his/her Diety's alignment, will lose the Diety's favor irregardless of the PrC, and a Cleric that remains within the alignment of it's diety whilst simultaneously championing the common man can do the same job, but with more spellcasting. It gives you a melee option, more or less. Though, frankly, the only People's Champion I know of on the server currently did not build their character with the concept in mind, they just kind of fell into it. And even then again, they are making a post trying to discuss how to improve the class...


...Just like how the people who chose Monster Hunter because, as you so aptly put it, 'It's cool,' are now finding months down the line they aren't enjoying it as much as they'd like.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Arawn

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2018, 04:36:18 AM »
A ranger is a better choice for mechanical combat, yes—that’s integral to the class design, so we don’t consider that a problem.

As for whether a ranger is better for the roleplay, I think that’s a rather subjective question to begin with, as is whether or not you think it’s cool.

We can and will tweak the class to make it more flavorful and more unique. Ultimately, though, it seems to be a difference of philosophy.  We don’t think that all prestige classes have to sum up to the same abstract “power level” (or ‘uniqueness level’) as others all the time. We do try and balance base classes a little more in this regard, but PrCs just don’t have to equal each other (or even base classes) for us to consider implementing them to give people interesting choices. If you don’t like this, that’s fine—it’s a philosophical difference, and there’s no reason your position is less valid. But it’ll save a lot of grief in the long run if you understand what our underlying principles are and that we’re unlikely to change them.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 04:38:30 AM by Arawn »
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: Monster Hunter PRC class feedback
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2018, 06:31:40 AM »
A ranger is a better choice for mechanical combat, yes—that’s integral to the class design, so we don’t consider that a problem.

As for whether a ranger is better for the roleplay, I think that’s a rather subjective question to begin with, as is whether or not you think it’s cool.

We can and will tweak the class to make it more flavorful and more unique. Ultimately, though, it seems to be a difference of philosophy.  We don’t think that all prestige classes have to sum up to the same abstract “power level” (or ‘uniqueness level’) as others all the time. We do try and balance base classes a little more in this regard, but PrCs just don’t have to equal each other (or even base classes) for us to consider implementing them to give people interesting choices. If you don’t like this, that’s fine—it’s a philosophical difference, and there’s no reason your position is less valid. But it’ll save a lot of grief in the long run if you understand what our underlying principles are and that we’re unlikely to change them.

I'm not sure I'm using the right words here - it isn't 'Uniqueness,' per se. It just has to do something different from a Ranger that actually contributes to the role play it's intended to nurture. I don't think anybody cares what that really is, it's just currently a discount Ranger. Admittedly, it has Int-based spellcasting that requires no prep, which is interesting and different, I guess? So there's that, for 'uniqueness,' but the underlying issue is, the general consensus seems to be that you don't need to be a Monster Hunter to be a Monster Hunter, and other classes do it better. The way the class represents it's scholarly knowledge of Monsters is through Favored Enemy, and the tricks you learn in the trade is represented by an underwhelming spell selection with limited castings. Beyond this, you have a handful of tracking/hunting/trapping style skills. Put this in comparison with literally any other class, and it just seems awkward and weird, and pointless.

Yes, the idea of the Monster Hunter is really cool. The concept of it is cool, the options it theoretically should offer and the type of role play it pursues is really cool. In reality, as of the moment, there's no definable reason why you couldn't do the exact same thing a Monster Hunter PrC is doing, having sacrificed some of his flexibility, utility, and combat prowess, to do the exact same thing another class can do for him. Compare that to literally any other PRC that fulfills a niche like Monster Hunter is intended to do. The problem isn't just mechanical, as if we wanted to twist the class into a different direction. It's a question of what defines this as being a Monster Hunter, over say, a Ranger. I can say it for anything else, a bookish Wizard can't hack the field work a Monster Hunter can, but his strength is redeemed elsewhere - in his spell power. A Fighter is more martial than a Monster Hunter, but lacks the tracking and combat specialization that a Monster Hunter does on paper. A Rogue, has the tracking and trapping skills, but lacks the knowledge of weaknesses.

As it stands now, so long as the implementation of Monster Hunter knowledge is represented by Lore and Favored Enemy, a Ranger has - Better martial prowess, is all around more skilled than a Monster Hunter is, able to diversify his portfolio far more into trapping, studying, hiding, and so on. He even has access to additional skills, like animal empathy, which may play a roll in investigating Lycanthropes as one might imagine. He is able to, as it is implemented currently, obtain the same level of specialization in the weaknesses and general lore surrounding monsters, and even directly combat them with his spells, and abilities which far surpass the utility in a practical environment, than a Monster Hunter. That's why everyone keeps referencing it. They aren't saying, 'Well, we need to make Monster Hunter more powerful than Ranger,' because that wouldn't necessarily fix the issue. That would just implement a power creep, and in the end turn Monster Hunter into a specialized kind of Ranger, which it isn't. It's a totally different concept that just isn't represented well at the moment.

At the very least, for what sharpening people are of the mindset People's Champion needs, it offers something that you can't get precisely elsewhere. It's targeted audience are Clerics, specifically Ezrites to start off with (but I heard somewhere it was diversified, might be wrong) and specifically, Anchorites operating within the rigid infrastructure of the Church. Some event in their life has changed their perception of the laity, and they begin to champion and embody the values of the common man, over gratuitous service to the Church or some other middle-man or body. To represent them giving the Church as an organized, mortal body but not the Diety itself the finger, they begin to take things into their own hands. Their BAB goes up, they get Righteous Anger to represent the the fury of their justice, so on, so on. It's thematic, if underwhelming, which is another discussion altogether, from another thread. Their eyes are opened, they're vigilant, they're more streetwise. It changes them, and it's represented in one way or another in their role play that makes them interesting to play. There's skills they wouldn't normally have, that represents how they've changed in mindset. Now, that's not to say a Cleric cannot perform the same roleplay, but they aren't going to have those little, gritty quirks. A straight Cleric can still embody the principles of the People's Champion as a wandering Anchorite and just never properly integrate with the Church, and in many ways could be more lethal, however they wouldn't have those little touches that make them streetwise and more hands-on, they wouldn't get to have those moments of utter brazen, unbridled fury when they show the tyrant his due retribution.

Monster Hunter needs something like that, which will make it different from just a crappy Ranger. You can make a bookish Ranger that studies some monsters, and you basically have a Monster Hunter without a PrC process, that's mechanically advantageous to play.

I hope that somehow clears up what my message in all of this is.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 06:39:45 AM by BraveSirRobin »