Author Topic: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:  (Read 870 times)

Silas Rotleaf

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Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« on: September 14, 2018, 03:16:46 PM »
Okay, I'll try it...
I don't think ninja looting is the worst thing around.
I think getting corpse hidden sucks worse.
That's just like my opinion and stuff and you don't have to agree with or like it, that's fine.

Hear me out here though... There can be some cool and not always violent RP interaction generated when a party finds and catches a thief who is scouting ahead of them or hanging around and taking all the treasure.  The way the people on their characters then resolve it by either punishing the "ninja looting" thief or asking them to use those talents for everybody's benefit and be a part of the adventuring group is something you can get story out of.

So before just doing the same old same old and going I'mma get my mad on, stop and think a little... Yeah, it sucks when you are in a dungeon or area and there are no monsters to defeat because somebody else killed them all ahead of you and it hasn't respawned yet and it does feel pretty lame when you open chests but they all are already emptied... But honestly I think... Hmm, okay that only has happened to me across a whole bunch of heavily dungeoning characters proportionally about a quarter to a third of the time.

To staff: Feel free to lock the thread if you want big guy(s), I trust your administrative judgment better than mine since you are the master(s) of this stuff and I'm just an opinionated player.

My take away is this: So maybe part of the balancing issue on distribution of loot and conflict and all that... Falls onto the players. You can only correct so much through mechanics, systems and staff. It would be impossible  to make a rule for absolutely everything in an improvisation based game. If you regulated every aspect that would result in a loathsome being railroaded into having to behave only one right way on your characters and last time I checked... That really isn't what Dungeons and Dragons or even Ravenloft Dungeons and Dragons is about in spirit.

I'm thinking... Maybe we as players can think about how we ourselves contribute to the feeling of balance and imbalance to the experience of the game for each other.
I know I've been thinking about it lately.

This isn't telling you how you ought to play your characters, only the player of the character and the staff deserve much of a true say in that. I am feeling like to think about the effects your character's behavior has on the other ones around him or her is something to consider though, whether for ill or benefit. ;-)
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:30:49 PM by Silas Rotleaf »

noah25

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 11:05:36 PM »
I agree ninja looters should be confrontable and have IC consequences for being caught for quite some time. Frankly though, I had a bit difficult of a time telling if that is what you are arguing for or what you are arguing the more of the post I read. Please clarify.

EO

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 11:06:29 PM »
Just keep it IC and act as you would in-character. A paladin wouldn't murder a thief, but an evil character may.

noah25

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 11:21:26 PM »
Perfect. I have been told in the past using ninja looting as a premise for PVP was unacceptable.

Grendel

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 11:24:40 PM »
I'd say it depends on context. If you come up on a dungeon you're intending to clear and someone emerges with a sack full of loot, in that instance you're essentially a highwayman demanding their possessions. If you've cleared the final room and someone ran ahead of you and is hip deep in a chest that you've fought and bled for, you could claim that those spoils are yours by right of conquest.

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2018, 12:03:18 AM »
Perfect. I have been told in the past using ninja looting as a premise for PVP was unacceptable.

In order to satisfy the PvP rules, you can demand they stop and return what they took. If they refuse to back down and take the out you’ve given them, then they’re opting-in.
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noah25

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2018, 12:07:51 AM »
Thank you for the clarification, that is very helpful.

Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2018, 02:49:23 AM »
I agree ninja looters should be confrontable and have IC consequences for being caught for quite some time. Frankly though, I had a bit difficult of a time telling if that is what you are arguing for or what you are arguing the more of the post I read. Please clarify.

Yeah I was suggesting if it bothers you IC to see about confronting the character who keeps doing it ahead of your group once you guys have an idea who it is as one of the possible solutions.
I was also sort of thinking that there are a bunch of different ways to deal with it like: Hey, we need a sneaky guy to take stuff, can you be our sneaky guy to take stuff?- to the looter. Or yeah "GIVE SOME OF THAT BACK NOW BEFORE I BRAIN YOU ONE" sometimes... Sort of depends on the personality of your character somewhat I suppose?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 02:51:10 AM by Silas Rotleaf »

Jeebs

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2018, 11:16:45 AM »
The thing that really bothers me is that people act like this ninjalooter is stealing from them personally when really they are just looting whatever crypt/ruin/cave/etc. that you and your party were about to loot. Claiming they are stealing from you doesn't make any IC sense to me. If they're stealing, then so are you really... or that was your intention before someone beat you to it, at least. Besides, it shouldn't be about the loot. If you have a party and you RP the entire way through a dungeon only to find out that the chests and such have already been looted, then at least you still got some RP out of it (and by extension, RP XP). I never understood the problem with this, and why people get so bent out of shape over it, honestly.

EDIT: Grendel's example of someone sneaking past you to loot a chest you've fought your way to is one of the few scenarios where I can see a legitimate reason to get mad about it.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 11:21:17 AM by Jeebs »

Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2018, 05:25:14 PM »
The thing that really bothers me is that people act like this ninjalooter is stealing from them personally when really they are just looting whatever crypt/ruin/cave/etc. that you and your party were about to loot. Claiming they are stealing from you doesn't make any IC sense to me. If they're stealing, then so are you really... or that was your intention before someone beat you to it, at least. Besides, it shouldn't be about the loot. If you have a party and you RP the entire way through a dungeon only to find out that the chests and such have already been looted, then at least you still got some RP out of it (and by extension, RP XP). I never understood the problem with this, and why people get so bent out of shape over it, honestly.

EDIT: Grendel's example of someone sneaking past you to loot a chest you've fought your way to is one of the few scenarios where I can see a legitimate reason to get mad about it.

Right? We don't all have the same perspective on it and context will vary...

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2018, 07:02:45 PM »
The thing that really bothers me is that people act like this ninjalooter is stealing from them personally when really they are just looting whatever crypt/ruin/cave/etc. that you and your party were about to loot. Claiming they are stealing from you doesn't make any IC sense to me. If they're stealing, then so are you really... or that was your intention before someone beat you to it, at least. Besides, it shouldn't be about the loot. If you have a party and you RP the entire way through a dungeon only to find out that the chests and such have already been looted, then at least you still got some RP out of it (and by extension, RP XP). I never understood the problem with this, and why people get so bent out of shape over it, honestly.

EDIT: Grendel's example of someone sneaking past you to loot a chest you've fought your way to is one of the few scenarios where I can see a legitimate reason to get mad about it.

That isn't the problem, imo, the problem is that when people ninja-loot it messes with the dungeon's spawn. That's even worse given that the server is seeing more players now than ever, and it means fewer dungeons to go around. I also really don't like the way ninja-looting makes decent, must-have items into 2-3k pickups because the market gets flooded with them.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 07:05:49 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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Chabxxu

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2018, 07:06:07 PM »
The thing that really bothers me is that people act like this ninjalooter is stealing from them personally when really they are just looting whatever crypt/ruin/cave/etc. that you and your party were about to loot. Claiming they are stealing from you doesn't make any IC sense to me. If they're stealing, then so are you really... or that was your intention before someone beat you to it, at least. Besides, it shouldn't be about the loot. If you have a party and you RP the entire way through a dungeon only to find out that the chests and such have already been looted, then at least you still got some RP out of it (and by extension, RP XP). I never understood the problem with this, and why people get so bent out of shape over it, honestly.

EDIT: Grendel's example of someone sneaking past you to loot a chest you've fought your way to is one of the few scenarios where I can see a legitimate reason to get mad about it.

That isn't the problem, the problem is that when people ninja-loot it lowers the dungeon's spawn.

But it really doesn't. Ninjalooting doesn't affect the strength of the monster spawns AT ALL.

Gavin Mace

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2018, 09:18:19 PM »
Yup, that's an old wives' tale. I collected empirical evidence after someone claimed this. Looted the same dungeon across 6 characters (every 20 minute refresh). The spawn was not altered. Tested on several dungeons, too.
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Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2018, 01:20:13 AM »
So mostly it's just people get mad they didn't get to the chest first or that while they were fighting the monster somebody else went in and looted, huh?
You can deal with that in character through conflict and it doesn't even have to degenerate into PVP most of the time. Use skills... And skill checks. Like in Dungeons and freaking Dragons. And then I dunno... Argue about it... And pester the DMs about it. About who is right. Like in Dungeons and freaking Dragons.

Omg improvisation and storytelling? Radical idea, yeah??

I know... Some people hate skill checks. And they will tell you it is stupid and horrible. Or people will ignore them anyway, or argue about which ones matter or not.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 05:15:02 AM by Silas Rotleaf »

THE STREET WARRIOR

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2018, 12:02:39 PM »
Add mini-bosses or more mobs that drop loot comparable to chests. That way there is more than one avenue to obtain nice loot, it doesn't always have to be in a chest. More mini-bosses in all dungeons, even if it's ninja looted you still get something.

Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2018, 01:06:51 PM »
Spoiler: show
Add mini-bosses or more mobs that drop loot comparable to chests. That way there is more than one avenue to obtain nice loot, it doesn't always have to be in a chest. More mini-bosses in all dungeons, even if it's ninja looted you still get something.

Yeah I've seen a few monsters that have equipment on them when you beat them... It's not the norm though... But when it happens, it's quite memorable.

Edward

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2018, 08:34:53 AM »
Hags, are a good example of loot monsters.

Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2018, 04:29:42 PM »
Yeah and the witches.
You never know exactly fully what sort of stuff they might have been carrying on them when you or your teammates are standing over one you guys just bumped off.

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2018, 11:36:22 PM »
Ninja-looting low level areas is a bit dull. I've tried it... Though I have picked up a few useful things and on-sold them. Even ninja-looted after someone who didn't have the lore skill to realise the +1 vs shapeshifter crossbow was actually a +3 vs shapeshifters. °_°

Finding creative ways to ninja-loot around things that would most definitely kill you if they knew you were there, is a far more interesting take on the horror experience. You get yourself into a FAR more dangerous experience than if you went with a well-planned group-casted superbuff synergy. You get to thinking how to explore places you wouldn't otherwise normally travel. Best part, you don't have to split the spoils with someone else.

Difficult to share that experience with other people though. Unless a group of super high levels comes along behind you and wonders why there's an invisible lvl 11 or less rummaging around in the loot they just fought 100+ monsters to get to. Then that becomes yet another interesting experience.

But who was more efficient? A group that spent hundreds of healing potions & spells or that guy with a couple of invisibility potions who just targeted the final rooms' chest or only slew the final boss before going back into hiding?

In D&D if you try fight everything you're just screwing over your own resources. It's a test of practical intelligence.

Some people forsake being practical for roleplay experience. That's fine. But they aren't mutually exclusive. I'm happy that a variety of play styles are supported personally.

Mika!

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2018, 12:00:26 PM »
There’s been a lot of debate on this over the years, but overall my experience is that ninja looting is good for the player economy. It supports independent merchants and merchant related factions much better than trying ‘dungeon’ to obtain inventory. When you ninja loot, the finds typically go to one person or organization. Monster spawns aren’t lowered and more items are available for another player within 15 minutes. There’s also a good deal of risk involved here, especially in higher level areas - so as noted above, it’s a pretty unique experience to navigate. Dungeoning usually results in the finds being split across a party, making it difficult for one party member to obtain much for a shop unless all of the other members work for them or are in agreement to receive a cut later (that typically doesn’t go over well in my experience). Enemy spawns are dropped to 0 and the area isn’t really viable for a ninja looter or dungeoning party for 6ish - 24ish hours, depending on the growth rate of the area and what kind of spawn the player(s) are looking for.

I’ve been playing here 5+ years and can count on one hand the number of times I’ve entered a dungeon that has been looted so recently by another character that no loot is spawned for the dungeoning party, so overall I can’t say that has really been an issue for me or the people I’ve played with. There’s only been 1 time I had someone sneak past a group I was dungeoning with to loot out from under us. They made themselves known at the very end and it was actually a really cool RP encounter. I would agree - this would be pretty inconsiderate to do, especially on any kind of frequent basis - but my experience has been that it is extremely uncommon. I would agree with the sentiment that someone solo’ing an area (often inappropriately low for their level) is substantially more common.

To comment on the ‘loot monsters’ mentioned above, there are actually a good number of them on the server. While they aren’t in every location, a few of them are below:

Supreme Witches/Warlocks
Hags
Vampire Wizardess/Sorceress/Matriarch
Alhoon
Lich
Harvest Temple - Boss
Disciples of Hotep
High Priestess Hotep
Hazlan - Efreeti
Bebilith
Fiendish Fanatics
Demonologists
Prisoner Slayer
Malthor

Overall, I think what is in place on the server works well to accommodate a number of different play styles.

THE STREET WARRIOR

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2018, 07:17:23 PM »
I've been here for a little bit, I know where the loot monsters are. We need more of them, in pretty much every single dungeon where chests are being ninja looted. I personally don't care about ninja looting. It keeps popping up though, so to stop people bringing it up, have monsters that people can loot and keep the chests for the sneaky looters.

Legion XXI

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2018, 08:29:03 PM »
I've been here for a little bit, I know where the loot monsters are. We need more of them, in pretty much every single dungeon where chests are being ninja looted. I personally don't care about ninja looting. It keeps popping up though, so to stop people bringing it up, have monsters that people can loot and keep the chests for the sneaky looters.

A lot of times this just results in the looter taking from the chests, then killing only the boss to loot them too.  This actually CAN reduce the spawn (more likely if more "bystander" mobs have to be killed in the process) unlike pure looting.  While this sounds like a good idea on paper, it's not really the solution people think it is.

THE STREET WARRIOR

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2018, 09:23:36 PM »
Add bodyguards, attach them to the mobs with loot, something like that. Pure looting ruins the loot just the same as killing only the boss and reducing the spawn.

Arawn

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2018, 09:33:05 PM »
Add bodyguards, attach them to the mobs with loot, something like that. Pure looting ruins the loot just the same as killing only the boss and reducing the spawn.

It does not. As long as enough time passes for the area to reinitialize (fifteen minutes), the loot will be just as good for the next person to enter, unless and only unless they are accompanied by the ninjalooter themselves.
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EO

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Re: Venturing forth an opinion on looting:
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2018, 09:34:08 PM »
Add bodyguards, attach them to the mobs with loot, something like that. Pure looting ruins the loot just the same as killing only the boss and reducing the spawn.

Once again, as a developer here and fully aware of how the treasury system works, no it does not.

As previously stated many times, the system works as intended and we have no plans to change it, no more than we did the last hundred times this topic has come up over time.