Author Topic: Divine Champion Question  (Read 7122 times)

Iridni Ren

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2017, 04:03:45 PM »
Thanks both of you.

Also, if you follow the teachings and dogma of your specific deity, you are furthering their cause, even if he or she is not granting you the powers to do so.

I agree, but it's the RP part that I'm trying to get a handle on. If my PC believes she is a "Champion" of her deity, then I was assuming she'd feel a special connection. For want of a better phrase..."divinely inspired."

But it sounds as though any feeling she might have of that would have to be either delusional or the DP tricking her.

She can't be a true DC only because she's furthering a cause. I should have quoted the rest of MAB77's comment:

Quote
The prestige class description is crystal clear, Divine Champions are holy servants of a deity or group of deities. As such to have a patron deity is the most important requirement to obtain the class.

Yes, this means you can even be a divine champion of false deities empowered by the Dark Powers (such as Zhakata), or nameless ones such as the deities of the Eternal Order. No, you can't be a divine champion of the Divinity of Mankind philosophy. They hold an ideal from which they draw great strength, but ultimately serve no one else but themselves in their path to "enlightenment".

Bold for the part that's causing me problems. If serving goals is okay, then you could have a Divinity of Mankind DC. A patron deity means to me that the deity takes a personal interest in you.

I agree the DP can deceive her into thinking she has one. But then I run into the problem of the part I quoted originally. I can't RP being deceived by the Dark Powers because

Quote
The Dark Powers are a tool to be used solely by the DMs. As a player you cannot use them to justify anything that would not normally be allowed  by the rules.


I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative. It's I want to get approved for the class and am afraid of being denied for breaking the rules or not RPing it right.

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Erebus

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2017, 04:30:59 PM »
A Divine Champion dedicates themself to the service of their deity and deity's cause. They are an especially devout servant, who receives boons from their deity as a reward.
What Divine Champions are not, is Divine Agents. Divine Agents are another PRC entirely. They are hand-picked by their deity to do their bidding in the world of mortals. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of.

MAB77

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2017, 05:42:52 PM »
[...]
Furthermore. When a cleric's Alignment or actions deviate from the Alignment of their Deity, usually they'd be cut off. Not so in Ravenloft. A cleric, paladin or divine champion in the Demiplane of Dread continues to receive spells, and by extension, the 'approval' from their deity, 'validating' their skewed or perverted dogma.

Hold on, let's clarify something important here. Clerics and Paladins losing their ways WILL lose their abilities the exact same way as in any other D&D settings. Exceptions are only possible if a DM allows it.

Now, deviations from one's church orthodoxy is certainly allowed and encouraged. IMHO it should be a natural roleplay result of the isolation from the Powers imposed in the demiplane, but you must always be careful to remain within the alignments allowed by your deity, or to remain lawful good in the case of a paladin.

Granted the game engine make it so you'd still be able to use the spells and abilities mechanically, but you should not do so before consulting a DM first. You may be asked to forgo the use of your divine abilities for a little while. This is common for cleric players switching deities for instance.
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Troukk

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2017, 05:54:29 PM »
[...]
Furthermore. When a cleric's Alignment or actions deviate from the Alignment of their Deity, usually they'd be cut off. Not so in Ravenloft. A cleric, paladin or divine champion in the Demiplane of Dread continues to receive spells, and by extension, the 'approval' from their deity, 'validating' their skewed or perverted dogma.

Hold on, let's clarify something important here. Clerics and Paladins losing their ways WILL lose their abilities the exact same way as in any other D&D settings. Exceptions are only possible if a DM allows it.

Now, deviations from one's church orthodoxy is certainly allowed and encouraged. IMHO it should be a natural roleplay result of the isolation from the Powers imposed in the demiplane, but you must always be careful to remain within the alignments allowed by your deity, or to remain lawful good in the case of a paladin.

Granted the game engine make it so you'd still be able to use the spells and abilities mechanically, but you should not do so before consulting a DM first. You may be asked to forgo the use of your divine abilities for a little while. This is common for cleric players switching deities for instance.

But in the end, it depends on what the character thinks he is, not what he really is, right?

That's the whole point of morality in Ravenloft.

If a lawful good paladin became a lawful evil zealot, but doesn't realize it, he shouldn't lose his abilities. After all, he THINKS he is still lawful good, and losing his powers would tip him off, and screw the point of moral corruption in Ravenloft.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2017, 05:59:28 PM »
A Divine Champion dedicates themself to the service of their deity and deity's cause. They are an especially devout servant, who receives boons from their deity as a reward.
What Divine Champions are not, is Divine Agents. Divine Agents are another PRC entirely. They are hand-picked by their deity to do their bidding in the world of mortals. Perhaps this is what you are thinking of.

I've not heard of Divine Agents. Actually, I didn't know anything about Divine Champions until recently. In researching Pelor and thinking about how a DC of Pelor would work I really looked more at this:

http://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/classes/prestige/general/radiantservant.shtml

Except I think a DC would be more martial than a RSoP.

What I'm hung up on is the phrase "patron deity" because what it makes me think of is patron saint.

"the protecting or guiding saint of a person or place"

A patron deity then would protect or guide the DC.

Also, the feats do imply a degree of being the deity's agent ("divine wrath" for example). I mean, if the DC is not doing what the deity wants, can't the deity withhold all those special boons?

Looking at those I would consider to be DCs in world religions, I think of someone like David in the Old Testament. Or Hector in Greek mythology. (In the Iliad Apollo infuses Hector with strength.)

Having only read about this class in the last month and a half, I'm not saying I know what it is. I'm trying to understand what it is. Plus, what it is in this setting.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 11:32:58 PM by Iridni Ren »

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MAB77

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 06:09:40 PM »
But in the end, it depends on what the character thinks he is, not what he really is, right?

That's the whole point of morality in Ravenloft.

If a lawful good paladin became a lawful evil zealot, but doesn't realize it, he shouldn't lose his abilities. After all, he THINKS he is still lawful good, and losing his powers would tip him off, and screw the point of moral corruption in Ravenloft.

He can rationalize the lost of his powers any way he want, see it as a test or otherwise, but he would still lose his paladin powers the moment he ceases to be lawful good. Because "Law" and "Goodness" are still technically where a paladin draws his power from, Dark Powers or not. Even Elena Faithold lost her paladin powers before the Dark Powers saw fit to give her back warped ones when she became Darklord of Nidala

Same with clerics deviating from their gods alignment. Remember always there is absolutely no proof that the powers comes from anything else but the gods. Why would a god still grant you powers if you no longer represent its ideals? Nerull and Zhakata are the only two confirmed cases where the DPs grant them instead, and then OOCly only, and you would still be expected to respect alignments. You step out of bound, you need DM approval.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 06:14:11 PM by MAB77 »
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Troukk

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2017, 06:21:30 PM »
You step out of bound, you need DM approval.

That's a given. Besides, only DMs can modify alignment on the character sheet here, so a DM will necessarily be there when you become "out of bounds"

He can rationalize the lost of his powers any way he want, see it as a test or otherwise, but he would still lose his paladin powers the moment he ceases to be lawful good.

That's where you lose me. It's sooo unravenloftian to lose powers due to your behavior. You don't become evil overnight. The evil creeps in slowly and quietly. It just misses the whole point of it if you get an alarm (losing your powers) that basically tips you off and lets you know you're on the wrong path.
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MAB77

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2017, 06:36:18 PM »
It's plain simple. You cease to believe in the ideals of the power granting you your powers, they cease granting them to you in return. The rules of the D&D multiverse do not change completely because you are on the Demiplane of Dread. The Unspoken Pact only prevents gods from acting directly on the Demiplane, for all practical purpose they are still (probably) the ones granting abilities to their clerics and paladins. The Dark Powers would likely only fill in for darklord candidate individuals.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 06:38:13 PM by MAB77 »
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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2017, 06:59:05 PM »
Just how strict is the Favored Weapon thing? Mine happens to be heavy mace, but I have been told that no heavy mace can be crafted here. That is a very heavy deterrent to picking a martial prestige class. I had hoped to just pick hammer.
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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2017, 07:02:58 PM »
The Dark powers can and do act as surrogates. In fact, many of our core spells and abilities functional entirely different to cease all together simply because of the fact that this is Ravenloft.

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2017, 07:14:21 PM »
The Dark powers can and do act as surrogates. In fact, many of our core spells and abilities functional entirely different to cease all together simply because of the fact that this is Ravenloft.

Of course, but the point is that players do not get to decide when the Dark Powers do so or not, only DMs have that power. The alignment rule for clerics and paladins remains the same on Ravenloft than for any other settings.
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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2017, 08:55:20 PM »
Just how strict is the Favored Weapon thing? Mine happens to be heavy mace, but I have been told that no heavy mace can be crafted here. That is a very heavy deterrent to picking a martial prestige class. I had hoped to just pick hammer.

The rule is followed to the letter.

However you are in luck, exceptions are granted when the deity's weapon is not in the game (not the case here), or when the weapon focus feat for the deity's weapon in question does not exists. As Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace) does not exists, you would be allowed to pick a focus in the closest resembling weapon. Now whether that'd be the Mace or the Warhammer, you best consult with DMs first.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2017, 10:36:34 PM »
Just how strict is the Favored Weapon thing? Mine happens to be heavy mace, but I have been told that no heavy mace can be crafted here. That is a very heavy deterrent to picking a martial prestige class. I had hoped to just pick hammer.

Iridni has an excellent hammer against undead (Pelor's big foe and Iridni's IC nemesis). I've been told there isn't nearly as good a mace in the game as what she has now. But I intend to stick by the letter of the rule, as MAB77 says.

When anyone views DC as a power build for clerics, I wish they'd take things like that into consideration. No 9th level spells, and no 8th level spells except if you're 20th level overall. That's if you take only 5 levels in DC!!

:P

The Unspoken Pact only prevents gods from acting directly on the Demiplane, for all practical purpose they are still (probably) the ones granting abilities to their clerics and paladins. The Dark Powers would likely only fill in for darklord candidate individuals.

I see that there's a lot of disagreement here over some very fine points. I don't know what is the "official" interpretation here. But I like this one so until told otherwise she's "roleing" with it. :)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 10:39:58 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Erebus

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2017, 02:13:00 AM »

What I'm hung up on is the phrase "patron deity" because what it makes me think of is patron saint.

"the protecting or guiding saint of a person or place"

A patron deity then would protect or guide the DC.

Also, the feats do imply a degree of being the deity's agent ("divine wrath" for example). I mean, if the DC is not doing what the deity wants, can't the deity withhold all those special boons?

Looking at those I would consider to be DCs in world religions, I think of someone like David in the Old Testament. Or Hector in Greek mythology. (In the Iliad Apollo infuses Hector with strength.)

Having only read about this class in the last month and a half, I'm not saying I know what it is. I'm trying to understand what it is. Plus, what it is in this setting.

I think you're overthinking it.
Patron deity uses 'patron' in the sense of 'sponsor'. The deity 'sponsors' the Divine Champion with boons and benefits.
An agent  undertakes tasks on the behalf their master, or acts as their proxy. This is not what the Divine Champion does.

What a Divine Champion is: They are warriors who dedicate themselves into the service of their deity. They might do things like.. defend holy ground and sacred places, hunt down specific enemies of the church, protect and serve the clergy, etc.

As for failing to serve and/or breaking oaths, tenets or deviating too much from the deity's alignment. As you can see, it's contentious and the realm of the DMs to decide, not up to us. But as you have seen, there are lots of options.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2017, 02:43:48 AM »
I think you're overthinking it.
Patron deity uses 'patron' in the sense of 'sponsor'. The deity 'sponsors' the Divine Champion with boons and benefits.
An agent  undertakes tasks on the behalf their master, or acts as their proxy. This is not what the Divine Champion does.

I overthink everything :P

But I have no problem with the distinction you make above. All I've said is that the deity does take an interest in the individual DC (sponsorship accords with that). I hope I've not said anything to imply a DC *must* receive assignments from the deity.

That could happen, particularly for an epic-level DC. All I mean is the deity must notice the DC for these boons to be granted. The DC isn't the deity's unrequited fan girl.

From Acts 13:22:
Quote
After removing Saul, [God] made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2018, 10:28:31 AM »
If someone wanted to pursue Divine Champion of Ilmater, would she choose weapon focus in the open hand as her patron deity's favored weapon?

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2018, 12:02:28 PM »
In Unarmed Strike, yes.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2018, 12:30:07 PM »
In Unarmed Strike, yes.

Yep, that's what I meant :)

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2018, 09:22:36 AM »
Hey, everyone. Sorry for resurrecting an old topic. I think going by the wording of the class itself is a bit misleading, as the Divine Champion PRC is sourced from the Player's Guide to Faerun sourcebook. The reason this is important is that, in the FR setting, all divine classes are required to source their power from some sort of divine entity (gods, spirits, powerful fey/demons/archons/elemental lords, whatever).

In baseline DnD, including Ravenloft, this requirement doesn't exist. Clerics can source power from intense zeal in a philosophical belief, druids source their power directly from the divine essence of nature, and paladins are granted their power directly by fate/Mount Celestia (the source for Ravenloft paladins is, of course, a bit more murky).

With this in mind, I think a more sensible interpretation is that the only type of faith which would make use of Divine Champions are organized faiths - those that have ordained, specific places of worship and the resources to sponsor an armed divine order. Given that the Divinity of Mankind is Paridon's only major religion and that it's highly organized, it seems sensible that they might maintain a few warriors who've coaxed out some divine power from the godlike nature of the human soul. However, a divine champion who follows a personal philosophical creed seems more out of a place. Likewise, divine champions coming from Ravenloft's three confirmed fake religions would be a bit odd, I think.

Just my two cents.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Divine Champion Question
« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2018, 09:41:09 AM »
Given that the Divinity of Mankind is Paridon's only major religion and that it's highly organized, it seems sensible that they might maintain a few warriors who've coaxed out some divine power from the godlike nature of the human soul. However, a divine champion who follows a personal philosophical creed seems more out of a place. Likewise, divine champions coming from Ravenloft's three confirmed fake religions would be a bit odd, I think.

Divinity of Mankind DC I recall specifically being disallowed here.

I *think* there is (was) a ML Divine Champion PC.

I'm not arguing yea or nay with the opinion you've expressed but only pointing out that it is not in agreement with the interpretation that is "official" here (at least as I understand it).

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