Why blind drive is bad for you (and worse for other players)

[Iridni Ren]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll say I've suffered an XP cap only once, ever, and that has been over a year ago. This means that one could see me as asking for other players to change to play more as I do (and thus am arguing from self-interest), but it also means that I'm not being a hypocrite.

I have seen the advice given out that PCs should "play through" blind drive.

I don't think you should, actually. My reasoning is based on understanding that it can take two full days for a spawn to get back to max level after being cleared out. If that's a false premise, then my conclusion naturally can be wrong. But here goes:

If my premise is true, the server can generate a maximum amount of dungeon XP every two days. This finite dungeon XP has to be divided among all the players on the server. As more players have been participating lately, the share for each player shrinks.

Consider, then, what happens when you have blind drive. On the one hand you hurt yourself because you have to expend twice the effort and time to get the same amount of XP. But you also hurt other players because you are wasting part of a limited resource. In effect, you are driving a gas guzzler that goes only half as far on a tank.

If you are lucky enough to find a nice spawn (which seems to be rarer and rarer from what I keep hearing), you clear-cut and burn the forest, while only heating your house half as much.

Consequently, please be a good citizen of the community and respond to messages that you are under an XP penalty. In the long run, I think you'll enjoy the module more yourself as you experience other facets of it than dungeon grinding. (The focus of the server is supposed to be RP after all.) You will certainly make the journey more rewarding for others

[BraveSirRobin]

In the interest of full disclosure, I'll say I've suffered an XP cap only once, ever, and that has been over a year ago. This means that one could see me as asking for other players to change to play more as I do (and thus am arguing from self-interest), but it also means that I'm not being a hypocrite.

I have seen the advice given out that PCs should "play through" blind drive.

I don't think you should, actually. My reasoning is based on understanding that it can take two full days for a spawn to get back to max level after being cleared out. If that's a false premise, then my conclusion naturally can be wrong. But here goes:

If my premise is true, the server can generate a maximum amount of dungeon XP every two days. This finite dungeon XP has to be divided among all the players on the server. As more players have been participating lately, the share for each player shrinks.

Consider, then, what happens when you have blind drive. On the one hand you hurt yourself because you have to expend twice the effort and time to get the same amount of XP. But you also hurt other players because you are wasting part of a limited resource. In effect, you are driving a gas guzzler that goes only half as far on a tank.

If you are lucky enough to find a nice spawn (which seems to be rarer and rarer from what I keep hearing), you clear-cut and burn the forest, while only heating your house half as much.

Consequently, please be a good citizen of the community and respond to messages that you are under an XP penalty. In the long run, I think you'll enjoy the module more yourself as you experience other facets of it than dungeon grinding. (The focus of the server is supposed to be RP after all.) You will certainly make the journey more rewarding for others

This sounds like someone making an argument for why you should drive a Toyota Prius. I've had my character for about - .. I don't know, 9 months or so, and I haven't been on blind drive with him since level 11. He lived his entire life between level 2 and 10 on Blind Drive, and I was level 10 in the first month of his playtime, and level 12 within a month of that, though from that point forward, I was more heavy into RP than dungeoning. By consequence, if every spawn on the server is low, that means that lower-level parties can raid higher level dungeons to make up for the XP, if they know where to go. When I leveled on Joachim, I didn't look for dungeons on high spawn, I looked for high level dungeons on a low spawn and ran those frequent enough. See: Wererats in VoB at like level 7 with a party of level 7-8's, for instance.

Guilting people into not having fun because of the environment on a fictional server where the environment is at behest of the developers sounds like a silly proposition. If there's an issue with the server coping with the current server population's urge to dungeon, it would fall on their shoulders to work out something that handles an expanding population, instead of duly informing the new players that dungeoning frequently is a sin, when you might compare this server to something like Arelith where there isn't really a culture like that.

[Kellyjelly]

Guilting people into not having fun because of the environment on a fictional server where the environment is at behest of the developers sounds like a silly proposition. If there's an issue with the server coping with the current server population's urge to dungeon, it would fall on their shoulders to work out something that handles an expanding population, instead of duly informing the new players that dungeoning frequently is a sin, when you might compare this server to something like Arelith where there isn't really a culture like that.

This sums up my thoughts exactly. I only recently started playing again with earnest during the June NCE, and since then I haven't been off Blind Drive. I don't ever think I'm harming other players because of this and if I am well that shouldn't be my fault anyway. Choosing how I spend my free-time and having it be on this server shouldn't be a bad thing for anyone and as BraveSirRobin said this shouldn't be a problem for players to solve but instead something for developers to tweak. Be that tweak be increasing the rate at which dungeons reach max spawn, or reducing penalties of blind drive. I don't know as I'm still rather green on all this, but I'm not planning on stopping to play something I enjoy so much because of an artificial limit on the server.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

Essentially echoing BSR's opinion; if people are having difficulty in finding high power spawns to get the most amount of XP on blind-drived characters, that's a symptom of server overpopulation and popularity and should be addressed by developers. Anecdotally during my limited play hours I see a severe lack of people dungeoning at all, let alone people wiping out high XP spawns like driver ants marching a swath of destruction. I'd argue that there needs to be more dungeoning, not less on account of some game-driven permutation of "you're hurting the environment and taking food out of the mouths of others".

In answer to the blind drive dilemma; stop caring about XP is my opinion. Go into your rest menu and disable your rest messages if you're on the XP cap. Stop caring about what XP you may or may not get. That way if you want to dungeon it's moreso a feeling of wanting to go out and seek gameplay, rather than grinding your character up another level. In addition it alleviates the stress of being the last quarter to the next level and getting multiple proud rest messages with no level as a result.

If you have the good fortune to find a high power spawn and have the resources of take advantage of it; do so. Spawns won't climb any higher than their maximum and if they aren't killed you're causing *less* total experience across the whole server to be gained. If other people were going to take advantage of that dungeon then they would have already done so.

[Mereyn]

There's something I don't quite understand. On one hand it's supposedly helpful not to level when you aren't gaining as much experience, thus lowering the amount others supposedly would have gotten. Aside from the fact that people can be capped at different levels and with that have no overlapping dungeons that they go to, if the focus of this server is truly roleplay, shouldn't it be unimportant whether you do dungeon or don't?

[DM Cataclysm]

BSR summed that up very nicely. People should come here to do what they enjoy - whether that be heavier on the dungeon side or the RP side. Trying to persuade people not to do what they enjoy is ultimately just going to cause them to leave - which we don't want.

I would agree that the server population might have outgrown how the spawn rates are set up. I made a thread on it here, but didn't get much traction: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=49078.msg604010#msg604010

[Iridni Ren]

The server is not really set up for players to come here and do what they enjoy, but rather to appeal to a certain kind of player who enjoys a certain kind of thing. The XP cap itself evidences this (and I can list countless other examples if necessary, such as the restriction on playable races, etc.).

What I hope to point out by this thread is that players who do enjoy dungeon-grinding are engaging in counter-productive behavior. Those who enjoy fishing can't enjoy fishing if everyone fishes in the same spots and over-fishes to the point of near extinction.

To be sure, one can also press the developers to change the server and allow it to become more of a WOW-type experience. But to my observation they're unlikely to do so.

In the meantime, this is the environment in which the community must live and thrive. Can players who like to constantly grind dungeons get frustrated and leave? Yes, but I think they would be less likely to do so if they paused for a moment instead of continually hitting their heads against the XP cap and never taking a breath. Isn't that the purpose of the XP cap after all?

I don't wish to argue that people should all enjoy the server for the same reasons I do. I'm only pointing out that those who refuse to slow down when the game system itself tells them they ought to are making life more difficult for themselves and everyone around them who is motivated primarily by XP gain and levelling. The more precious spawns and monster XP become, the more wasting it in this "half the bang for the buck" manner is self-destructive.

[DM Cataclysm]

The server is not really set up for players to come here and do what they enjoy

I would largely disagree with that. PoTM is honestly one of the best servers that I've seen in terms of diversity in appealing to a wide group of players. There are a lot of dungeons for battle-heavy players, RP only factions for RP centric characters, and a ton of things in between. The recent issue with it being harder to locate spawns is more a product of the population explosion since EE. There were plenty of people who dungeon'ed like crazy before that and it never presented an issue.

As Arawn mentioned in another thread, they are working on some additional dungeons. I think that is the best solution to the issue instead of trying alter how other people experience the server.

[Fungal Artillery]

The page 6 of the Dungeon Master's guide for 5th edition is titled "Know your players".

In a nutshell, it details a number of different style of player and catering to their needs at the table. Because everyone plays to get something different out of the game.

It's important that we remember to be respectful of everyone's enjoyment, whether we're at the table or at our screens. We are not playing against each other, not the players, not the DMs. We are playing with each other.

I also strongly disagree with the notion that RP and dungeon delving are separate. Adventure RP is some of my most favorite. Personally, I don't get a kick out of the sort of social scheming that Port for example offers, but some others do and that's fine. I've still had wonderful moments of play with people who don't share my playing style.

We could do with being less about "Us VS Them", and try to be more inclusive as a community on an OOC level. When we think in terms of "those people who do X" and "us who only do Y", we're creating bubbles that aren't positive for a roleplay community. Again, we are playing together, while getting different things from the play.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Blind Drive, it's one of many mechanics that I never agreed with. It has caused me to take breaks from PoTM before, out of frustration. I don't feel that it's contribution is a positive one, as is the case of many other mechanics that force passiveness unto players.

[snowfox]

[...] The more precious spawns and monster XP become, the more wasting it in this "half the bang for the buck" manner is self-destructive.

Maybe people play this way because it's fun for them, no matter the amount of experience, gold or loot they get. And if that be the case, then there is truly no way to call it self-destructive without calling into question the very point of playing at all, which is...to have fun.

[Darkside of Heaven]

I just ignore blind drive..

It's not about exp and getting to that high level, if you what that why not play on any number of the epic level servers and get to 40 in a matter of weeks.

PoTM for me is about the story and setting not about what level my PC is. Sure it helps being at a reasonable level and if all you want to do is get there fast just create another PC play that one for a while while the cap cools down on the other and then switch.

[Little Lotte]

I just ignore blind drive..

It's not about exp and getting to that high level, if you what that why not play on any number of the epic level servers and get to 40 in a matter of weeks.

PoTM for me is about the story and setting not about what level my PC is. Sure it helps being at a reasonable level and if all you want to do is get there fast just create another PC play that one for a while while the cap cools down on the other and then switch.

This.

[zDark Shadowz]

Same, I've never been in this 'blind drive' thing myself, most I've been at was mentally exhausted a couple times when my character got jumped up from a really low level when a ridiculously large group went out to hunt yeti's and some random soldiers.

Ignore blind drive, because you're still going to get 'RP XP' when you're out having fun doing whatever with other people. Rp XP + Blind drive XP > RP XP alone. Seems like it's more of a cap against solo-leveling than anything.

[ladylena]

I've never found the blind drive to be a bad thing. It's a chance to rp. You're exhausted from going out and probably almost dying too many times to count. You need to take some time to recover. Or you can just ignore it.

As for the dungeons, the main ones being frequented seems to encourage (at least me) to explore and find new places worthwhile.

I think one of the biggest allures to POTM is the fact that it is not a WoW style game, nor a typical MMORPG. Combat and leveling aren't the primary focus, for a lot of players, it is the story. Sure it's great if you can reach a high level, perhaps your character for some reason or another, desires to push their limits to the extreme or to achieve a certain class feat.

Unless I'm striving for a certain feat/spell/skill/etc or getting ready to enchant, I don't really bother too much with the xp. But that's just me

[BraveSirRobin]

I've never found the blind drive to be a bad thing. It's a chance to rp. You're exhausted from going out and probably almost dying too many times to count. You need to take some time to recover. Or you can just ignore it.

As for the dungeons, the main ones being frequented seems to encourage (at least me) to explore and find new places worthwhile.

I think one of the biggest allures to POTM is the fact that it is not a WoW style game, nor a typical MMORPG. Combat and leveling aren't the primary focus, for a lot of players, it is the story. Sure it's great if you can reach a high level, perhaps your character for some reason or another, desires to push their limits to the extreme or to achieve a certain class feat.

Unless I'm striving for a certain feat/spell/skill/etc or getting ready to enchant, I don't really bother too much with the xp. But that's just me

The problem comes because Blind Drive is pretty easy to achieve. If you're leveling regularly, and you wait over a week for your ticker to say, "Fresh for whatever the Mists throw at you," or whatever it says, effectively two Vestebule runs at mid-level can throw you back into Blind Drive, for another half week or a week. Most people want to run a couple of dungeons a day, if they're active doing it, and by doing so, you can hit Blind Drive pretty quickly. I personally don't stop at Blind Drive, if I'm in an RP situation wherein it's appropriate to run out and dungeon.

However, I should also note, the most effective way to level up your character is to adventure and roleplay in mass quantities. Even roleplaying while in the dungeon actually helps quite a bit. If you're silently running dungeons while over VOIP with your mates, you're losing out on the experience and the monotony can become boring. But - If that's what you really like to do, more power to you. If that's what a lot of people like to do, more power to them. This is a place where we come to do what we want to do, and by God, if that's running a circuit of dungeons you and your party have fun going through, every day, for weeks on end as a social reprieve, you're wholly entitled to do so. The fact we seem to be lacking dungeons on a high spawn is most certainly indicative of the server population's growth since the release of EE.

pre-EE, our numbers were in the 30-40 on average range. Post-EE, it's 70-80 every night. Our server's active population has effectively doubled with a slew of new people, and we need to make sure we're adjusting appropriately. Not kinkshaming them.

[Tycat]

I don't think it takes two two days to achieve max spawn. I remember having an impressive ai growth explained to me when I joined, that effects everything from mink to high huecuvas. Is surely faster than two days, but as Mika said elsewhere, our population grew.

[Iridni Ren]

I'm not sure that all the dungeons even refresh at the same rate to be honest, but the two-day figure was something I heard from an actual DM (not a Dev, however).

Regardless, many players are complaining that it's much more difficult these days to find a good spawn. Whatever the spawn rate is, therefore, killing spawns while receiving half XP for them isn't optimal use of a scarce resource.

[DM Cataclysm]

Not all spawns refresh at the same rate. From my experience - most don’t take 2 days to build to max. I believe there’s also some functionality that increases spawn growth based on the number of players online.

We previously had an issue with resets wiping out all of the spawns. I watched a lot of spawns during this period and they generally took between 6-24 hours to reach max, depending on the location. There are a few places in the desert that grow a lot faster than say, Perfidus.

Regardless, additional dungeons are being created to address the issue. For those who dungeon on blind drive - I say soldier on friends! You are here to enjoy the server, so that’s what you should do! As many have mentioned, a lot of great RP experiences and mini events can happen while you’re out hacking and slashing!

[Chabxxu]

Spawns are indeed a problem right now. But saying that we should remove blinddrive because of that is totally nonsense. If spawns are shit, you won’t get to blinddrive in the first place.

[haifisch021]

I think blind drive should stay in place as it is. I've had periods of both max exp buff and max exp debuff several times before, and what I have learned is:

-Blind drive is not excessive or detrimental to my play experience.
-The amount of exp gained with the exp buff (or even at "buff/debuff neutral" gain rate) is very high.

I can't speak for anybody else, but in my experience blind drive is an effective, but not intrusive, balancing tool to steady exp gain. It's not unreasonable to expect to gain 1 or even 2 levels in a week's time with the full exp buff. If there were no blind drive then there would be a massive influx of people rapidly levelling and creating a system in which people who grind dungeons exclusively would be unfairly advantaged versus those who either choose to not dungeon as frequently, or are not able to dungeon as frequently (be it due to IC or OOC reasons). The current system used to regulate exp gain does a good job of balancing these two different playstyles without limiting either party.

As for dungeon spawns, I've been spending most of my time on a lower level character lately and I haven't noticed a significant difference in spawn quality now as opposed to spawn quality before EE. That said, I have not been in Vallaki, so my experience with that half of Barovia is somewhat limited. I think that the appropriate solution to this problem would be to construct more dungeons which the dev team is currently working on ( )









(ps dev team plz add low level dungeons to Dementlieu I will love you 4ever)

[noah25]

I let people sponge off me for RP reasons constantly and I still love XP caps this is why:

1) It encourages people to have more than one character. Realistically, if I am on blind drive I will either:
A) Focus more on roleplay
B) Play one of my other lovely characters in the meantime. This helps people be exposed to the server in a lot of different ways and also keeps someone from fast tracking to level 20 in a month, which I could make someone do easily without blind drive.
2) There is a great RP reason for the mechanic. Characters should get tired and burdened and want to do something other than kill trolls 24/7. I find it beneficial that there is a mechanic to reinforce this.
3) It can push people to do loot heavy dungeons instead of XP heavy dungeons. If I am capped on frido, I am far more likely to do blaustein than trolls. I see this as being overall beneficial to the server economy.

[chuuch1]

By this logic, players that have reached level 20 should also not be going out to dungeon. 

Personally I've always ignored the XP messages.  Dungeon when ya want to and when its appropriate for your character.  Good times.   

[Iluvatar / Madness]

Asking people to dungeon less, or asking to stop dungeoning because they aren't optimizing their XP incoming when they kill mobs is ridiculous. It is far from being a viable solution and I doubt people dungeoning regularly wants to dungeon less. As for removing blind drive, it simply isn't a solution for obvious reasons.

As Arawn mentioned in an other thread very recently, several dungeon are being worked on by different Dev at the moment, I realize the current situation isn't fun for people who dungeon regularly, but be patient and rest assured, the dev team have noticed the issue, solutions have been discussed as well as temporary measure until the issue can be solved properly.

Be patient and keep an eye on the update log in the future for possible new dungeon and/or temporary fix.

[DM Cataclysm]

Be patient and keep an eye on the update log in the future for possible new dungeon and/or temporary fix.

[Dextan]

*dances with Mika*