Author Topic: Mulling  (Read 1184 times)

konssaml

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Mulling
« on: August 20, 2018, 06:10:14 PM »
Let me start by saying that I agree with the mulling rules and in no way I want them more lax.

One of my characters, is a crafter/merchant who is also working with others in his business and constantly exchanges items. Some times I even get to make the delivery boy and transport other players crafted items. As you can understand my characters gets to "touch" many items even from failed sales, which he returns to the original crafter.

The thing is that this is not my only character and I was wondering how can I protect myself from mulling? I mean, I could as well buy potions, arrows or anything really that my other character touched without even knowing it.

Is it possible to make a system that warns people that  "item a" was touched by an other of your characters and it will be considered mulling if you keep it on you?

I mean, as a player I have no way of tracking which item I have touched and which I haven't and that means that I am in constant danger of getting a warning or suspended for something I didn't mean to do unless I either don't play any other character than my crafter/merchant character or stop playing with said character and hope none of the items crafted, delivered or "touched" by him ends on one of my other characters.

ladylena

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2018, 06:24:34 PM »
That's a good idea. A message that could come when you try to take the item saying "this item has been used by another character with this cd key" or whatever. May lower the stress load on the dms too.

DM Cataclysm

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2018, 06:35:43 PM »
I know in the past I recommended a way to see if an item was Ďcleaní for your character to take and the response was that they didnít want to implement that because of concerns about how it would be used to get around the muling script.

That being said - Iíve had merchant characters who have moved a whooollleeee lot of inventory, so Iíve on occasion touched something with an alt that has passed through one or more characters since my original one touched it. DMís are typically very understanding about this - I think itís probably pretty obvious when someone is up to shenanigans and when itís an honest/unavoidable mistake. You can do your best to stay clear of more unique items you know that you may have touched, but I wouldnít worry too much about getting in trouble for accidents that happen. The DM will probably just be like ďHey, did you know you touched that item with óó-ď and theyíll work out a way to move forward with you.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2018, 06:44:34 PM »
Months ago, I suggested that instead of the script sending a tell to the DMs it just caused the item to be dropped immediately. That way no one would get in trouble and the DMs would have a lot less work to do.

Or (because of the need for players to sometimes carry the bodies of allies and their weapons), items be unequippable (just like enchanted gear).

Both of these suggestions were rejected.

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Darkside of Heaven

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2018, 07:09:26 PM »
Months ago, I suggested that instead of the script sending a tell to the DMs it just caused the item to be dropped immediately. That way no one would get in trouble and the DMs would have a lot less work to do.

Or (because of the need for players to sometimes carry the bodies of allies and their weapons), items be unequippable (just like enchanted gear).

Both of these suggestions were rejected.

I can see why they were rejected.

I do like the message  saying "this item has been used by another character with this cd key". That's a great solution

Tycat

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2018, 07:30:22 PM »
As far as crafted items go, you can get a maker's mark made so that you know if you made it on an other character. This mark can be used on every crafted item, including clothing, arrows, armors, bows, etc. Merchandise is trickier.

konssaml

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2018, 07:46:28 PM »
Of course it's easier to track down rare/unique items but this is not the same case for crafted items.

Even if I can mark my own crafted items I have no way of knowing which one of the other crafters items I have touched in the past.

Also since the current  characters I play with have helped said crafters in the past to find matters, run dungeons during their first steps and so on(Some during NCE, some during nights I wanted to play a new char etc), they have good relationship with those crafters and seek them when I need a new item crafted in a certain deadline.

As you can see it's not as simple as "stamp the items you craft".

Iridni Ren

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2018, 08:31:59 PM »
Months ago, I suggested that instead of the script sending a tell to the DMs it just caused the item to be dropped immediately. That way no one would get in trouble and the DMs would have a lot less work to do.

Or (because of the need for players to sometimes carry the bodies of allies and their weapons), items be unequippable (just like enchanted gear).

Both of these suggestions were rejected.

I can see why they were rejected.


I think when possible a game's rules should be enforced mechanically, rather than having to rely on human intervention and enforcement. The idea of intentionally allowing a preventable exploit so that players can then be caught and punished for it seems pretty bizarre.

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Audric Lacroix

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2018, 08:46:26 PM »
Iridni, the personal reason why I am personally against your suggestions is for rescues/corpse retrieval.  I have rescued multiple people across several characters by pure happenstance or dungeoned with them across several likeminded characters and have picked the same players equipment up. The reason human interference there is necessary is because something like that needs to be judged by an administrator who can defer to, for lack of better words, 'police officers discretion'.  They can see 'Ok, muling script tripped and conveyed message stating x character grabbed sword/shield, or bow, staff etc yazehblah, most likely a rescue, nothing to see here.'

I find that far better than a script saying

'no touchie, F U M8.'

and leaving all of the shinies on the ground.


Audric Lacroix

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2018, 08:47:54 PM »
That said, a script that says 'Hey you, guy, you've touched this'  isn't a bad idea.

Super Sugar

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2018, 09:29:30 PM »
That said, a script that says 'Hey you, guy, you've touched this'  isn't a bad idea.

This reminds me of the robocop scene when they were testing a new robot on one of the guys with a pistol.

"Drop the weapon! You have ten seconds to comply!"
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Jeebs

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2018, 12:51:57 AM »
That said, a script that says 'Hey you, guy, you've touched this'  isn't a bad idea.

This reminds me of the robocop scene when they were testing a new robot on one of the guys with a pistol.

"Drop the weapon! You have ten seconds to comply!"

Hopefully if a script like this is introduced, it ends better for the players than it did for that poor fool.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 01:06:04 AM »
Back when I played Kazir Aglastan, Owner and proprietor of Aglastan Trading Company, I had Borval Skullbreaker in my employ. I touched basically all of his wares, which means I touched more or less every sword, axe and shield that wasn't sold direct to a customer. When I spoke with the DM's regarding it, they're usually pretty aware when something is a legit mistake, and when something's been muled. Merchant PC's get a bit of lenience in that area.

konssaml

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 04:09:43 AM »
Back when I played Kazir Aglastan, Owner and proprietor of Aglastan Trading Company, I had Borval Skullbreaker in my employ. I touched basically all of his wares, which means I touched more or less every sword, axe and shield that wasn't sold direct to a customer. When I spoke with the DM's regarding it, they're usually pretty aware when something is a legit mistake, and when something's been muled. Merchant PC's get a bit of lenience in that area.


It just so happens that I know a few cases of people getting suspended for that reason.

I guess they were just unlucky?
Why do we have to relay on luck and can't get a way to know that we are doing something that is against the rules we agreed with and we are currently breaking them unintentionally?

Arawn

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 04:57:43 AM »
Quote
Why do we have to relay on luck and can't get a way to know that we are doing something that is against the rules we agreed with and we are currently breaking them unintentionally?

If itís unintentional, itís not a rule break.
Hir yw'r dydd a hir yw'r nos, a hir yw aros Arawn.

HikoSashiri

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2018, 07:32:26 AM »
Quote
Why do we have to relay on luck and can't get a way to know that we are doing something that is against the rules we agreed with and we are currently breaking them unintentionally?

If itís unintentional, itís not a rule break.

Tell this to DM Brimstone he Suspen Zaren's acount by saying mulling he destroy the item instantly without asking if it was unintentional and when we try to explain he say id you don't like my action make a post to head DM and i am sure that he suspend other players acount the same way ....also the item was Steel Morningstar i know op boost ....-_-.....At my personal opinion that DM need to stop bother with muling let other DM's do that job if you have no time find what happen that was he ansewr when i try to tell him that it was unintentional

El JefeLast Wednesday at 11:07 AM
Send a forum PM to Head DM Blue or Head DM Mephisto.


El JefeLast Wednesday at 11:14 AM
Yes, you are suspended for one week for the second violation of the muling rule.
Unless the Head DMs decide otherwise.

btw the 1st muling that Zaren did was unintentinal again 1 Year back
H̨̧̭̲̠͙̱̟̦̓͐̾̀̽͑͆̂̓ï̞̱̝͕̝͕̖̠͗̍́̈́̂͑͗̈ͅk̪͔̼̞͖̠̭̰̖̉͒̊͊̾̉̽͊̒o̘̙̥̭̜͔͖̺̤̒̅̽̔̄̎͛͂̂S̫͓͕̠̩̗̻͓͗́̉́͆̅̒̀͘ͅǡ̢̢͈̝͈̯͖͙̬̌̎̀̀̾͒̓s͚͚̝̳͕̯̹̜͖͑̈́̑͛̂̀̏̈͒h̨̞̼̥̦̳̝͈̐̈́̀̓̍̇̄̽͝ͅḯ̧͖̣̭͚̞̩̟̪̈́͑̈́̐̊̈͘͝ṛ̦̼̺̫̻̰̫̥̂́͐̉̓̉̓̇͝i̢̛͎͎͇͔̼͇̓́̈͌̒̓́͜͝ͅ

Iridni Ren

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2018, 08:58:05 AM »
In a court of law, it can be pretty difficult to judge intent, as it goes to state of mind, and human beings are not mind readers. Given the anonymity and other limits of the Internet and the NWN interface, assessing intent with anything like the accuracy one would prefer in such cases is not humanly possible, regardless of one's confidence in one's own ability. If humans have to judge the intent of other humans, mistakes are going to be made, with the guilty sometimes escaping punishment and the innocent sometimes being punished.

Unless any of us here happens to be infallible :D

Given that DMs have often expressed not liking to have to deal with rulebreaks and the personal animosity that comes with them, any chance to minimize these controversies should be welcome--especially given that even when judged unintentional, it is not as though muling then becomes permissible. I know if I were a DM I would not want to waste my time arguing with disgruntled players about such crap and would love to have it enforced systemically, allowing me to devote more time to the more positive aspects of DMing.

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Chabxxu

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2018, 08:59:48 AM »
If he said to bring it to a head DM, why are you calling him out on the forum, while showing a few parts of a conversation? Do you really think that will help you in any way?

Daboomer

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2018, 09:05:03 AM »
Quote
Why do we have to relay on luck and can't get a way to know that we are doing something that is against the rules we agreed with and we are currently breaking them unintentionally?

If itís unintentional, itís not a rule break.

Tell this to DM Brimstone he Suspen Zaren's acount by saying mulling he destroy the item instantly without asking if it was unintentional and when we try to explain he say id you don't like my action make a post to head DM and i am sure that he suspend other players acount the same way ....also the item was Steel Morningstar i know op boost ....-_-.....At my personal opinion that DM need to stop bother with muling let other DM's do that job if you have no time find what happen that was he ansewr when i try to tell him that it was unintentional

El JefeLast Wednesday at 11:07 AM
Send a forum PM to Head DM Blue or Head DM Mephisto.


El JefeLast Wednesday at 11:14 AM
Yes, you are suspended for one week for the second violation of the muling rule.
Unless the Head DMs decide otherwise.

btw the 1st muling that Zaren did was unintentinal again 1 Year back

? ?
...?

DM Cataclysm

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2018, 09:42:49 AM »
It's really not appropriate to openly attack one of the DM's on the Forum. I'm sure there is a lot more to this story that the community doesn't know......and doesn't really have any business knowing.

If you're upset about a situation like this, you should do as Brimstone suggested and contact one of the head DM's. You could also speak to a member of the CC if you need to talk things through before you get a DM response.

emptyanima

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2018, 09:51:19 AM »
As he was told to do on the PotM Discord as well.

Before you rail against the rules, it might be a good idea to read them.

konssaml

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2018, 09:58:06 AM »
So, since it's not always as clear as we would all like it to be and since DM's are human and can make mistakes, is it possible to implement a warning system of shorts that will give the DM's a more solid case and the players a way of knowing that they are breaking the rules?

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 10:09:33 AM »
This is a non-issue. If you're not doing it intentionally, you won't get in trouble.
: )


Iridni Ren

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2018, 10:17:12 AM »
It's not a particularly useful contribution to a discussion to dismiss the opinions of others out-of-hand.

If players have concerns, it is an issue. It may not be an issue for you personally, but clearly others think it is.

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Chabxxu

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Re: Mulling
« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2018, 10:27:09 AM »
Merchants are the characters that are the most at risk of being accused/caught muling because of what they do. When those players/characters say there is no problem with the current system, it should have some weight considering they are the ones who experience it firsthand. As it was stated already, DMs easily understand circomstance when the mulling script triggers, they will ask questions about what happened.

As for the example that was giving to start this thread, its been going around for a while, first on Discord last week i believe. There is a lot of info that is being held up, of which we have no idea about, so its really impossible as a player to give an accurate opinion about what happened. That is something that should be discussed between DMs, and players shouldnt have a word to say about it.