Author Topic: Tongues (new spell)  (Read 4120 times)

Iridni Ren

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Tongues (new spell)
« on: August 15, 2018, 10:07:26 AM »

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2018, 01:25:17 PM »
Eh, seems kinda gross. Defeats the point of the language system if any arcanist or busta with umd and a tongues scroll can circumvent it. So even if do-able, I'd personally be against it.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2018, 01:48:11 PM »
It's pulled from 3.5. The language system is a formalisation of the same. It's not against the point of the language system to add spells that bypass it, it's an extension of the same.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2018, 01:56:44 PM »
Eh, seems kinda gross. Defeats the point of the language system if any arcanist or busta with umd and a tongues scroll can circumvent it. So even if do-able, I'd personally be against it.

What do you see as the point of the language system?

The language system seems to me to enhance RP, immersion, and realism. IRL people develop (normal) languages to communicate--not to obscure their meaning. They speak because they want to be understood and find it frustrating when they attempt to communicate with others and can't. The times IRL when people are using a language to hide their meaning are few and far between--almost non-existent. Normal language isn't some kind of code to "circumvent."
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 02:00:43 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2018, 02:07:15 PM »
Also, please note that the spell does not grant literacy in additional languages. If two PCs did not want a third to understand them, they could write their communication and defeat the spell.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2018, 02:15:10 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2018, 02:51:07 PM »
Quote
The times IRL when people are using a language to hide their meaning are few and far between--almost non-existent.

That’s an exaggeration. People in real life use language for all sorts of reasons, including deliberate obfuscation. We don’t have to rehearse racist tropes about minority languages to acknowledge that this is an obvious and well-documented function of language.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2018, 03:00:20 PM »
What I mean by "almost nonexistent" is versus the proportion when language is used to communicate meaning.

The ratio is so great as to make the other vanishingly small in comparison.

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2018, 03:02:30 PM »
What I mean by "almost nonexistent" is versus the proportion when language is used to communicate meaning.

The ratio is so great as to make the other vanishingly small in comparison.

That doesn’t really mean anything, though, since it’s that specific use people seem invested in maintaining, and it can be and is used for that purpose.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2018, 03:31:23 PM »
What I mean by "almost nonexistent" is versus the proportion when language is used to communicate meaning.

The ratio is so great as to make the other vanishingly small in comparison.

That doesn’t really mean anything, though, since it’s that specific use people seem invested in maintaining, and it can be and is used for that purpose.

I'm having to guess at what you mean here, but if your meaning is something like this...

"People in game want to maintain the obfuscation that the language system provides."

...I still would disagree that even in game PCs use the system for obfuscation nearly as much as they use it simply to enhance their character, RP, and realism. If you really don't want another PC to understand you, you're not going to rely on language tags that are easily metagamed. (Nor could a PC  be certain a listener wouldn't know most of the languages that are commonly used.)

Moreover, if we treat normal, everyday spoken language as a code meant to obfuscate, rather than as a tool used for communication, then we're undermining the very immersion and RP enhancement that multiple languages should provide because we're using language in an unnatural, non-realistic manner.

For the sake of argument, however, and thus accepting that this obfuscation actually happens and maintaining it is a legitimate point of concern, a spell should be able to counter the deception--just as spells can counter the effects of traps, help open locks, etc.

Understanding language is a normal human achievement. We have spells that give casters super-human abilities that in comparison make what Google translate does seem very mundane (e.g. calling lightning from the sky, creating earthquakes, restoring life.).  So it seems pretty strange that casters would not research and develop ways of overcoming this more mundane nuisance. The question would be how to balance the spell, and the source I used is canon.

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2018, 03:56:22 PM »
I think it would enable cheesy approaches to language without any real tangible benefit, skewed mostly toward specific classes. Remember that 3.5 presumes language is a goal to be overcome by your party, hence the spell. Our community’s a little different.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2018, 04:12:17 PM »
One has to follow both the spirit and the letter of the spell I think.

The primary function of the tongue spell in a P&P game is to provide players a mean to communicate with the various NPCs not speaking Common or the same language as the PCs that they may encounter. That issue is significantly reduced on PotM due to the availability of the Common language to almost everyone, PCs and NPCs alike.

Sure using the spell to understand people willfully speaking in a tongue you don't normally understand is a savvy use of the spell. But sometimes, what is good and encouraged in a p&p game just becomes a broken ability in a game module like PotM. Let's be frank here, that spell would be thoroughly abused to bypass the whole language system and that would be a shame.

We have a very good system as is.The possibilty of both being understood by most, or just a few, at any given time. It would be sad to see all that be trumped just because "magic" and insane stacks of scrolls.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2018, 08:01:43 PM »
I think it would enable cheesy approaches to language without any real tangible benefit, skewed mostly toward specific classes. Remember that 3.5 presumes language is a goal to be overcome by your party, hence the spell. Our community’s a little different.

Didn't you all say you wanted to implement the Tongue of Sun and Moon for Monks, which is effectively the same thing?

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2018, 08:41:47 PM »
I think it would enable cheesy approaches to language without any real tangible benefit, skewed mostly toward specific classes. Remember that 3.5 presumes language is a goal to be overcome by your party, hence the spell. Our community’s a little different.

Didn't you all say you wanted to implement the Tongue of Sun and Moon for Monks, which is effectively the same thing?

Except accessible to a single rare class at an extremely high level, rather than anyone with UMD and a scroll.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2018, 09:51:18 PM »
I think it would enable cheesy approaches to language without any real tangible benefit, skewed mostly toward specific classes. Remember that 3.5 presumes language is a goal to be overcome by your party, hence the spell. Our community’s a little different.

First off, I'll note that you didn't refute or otherwise respond to any of my points, but nonetheless I will respond to yours.

If it's a supported spell, it is clearly not cheesing: "Cheesing" is the act of playing your character as if they have an ability or feat which the NWN engine would not otherwise allow them to have.  (Zarathustra)

As far as being skewed toward specific classes, all new spells are inherently skewed toward spelllcasting classes (and if scrolls are added, those who can UMD). Moreover, I don't find it odd at all that fighters and barbarians are less likely to find ways to address their deficiency of languages than classes like wizards, bards, rogues, and clerics.

How is our server "a little different"? I mean in the specific context of what we're talking about--because I see all sorts of things as "needing" changing or being shot down to match 3.5 as though that's very much a goal of the Devs.

In point of fact, assuming 3.5 is oriented toward player character parties would make language concerns, if anything, less necessary. A party of six might be able to represent through diversity enough languages to speak with almost anyone they were likely to encounter.

Turning to "tangible benefit," I don't know what sort of RP you've been witnessing, but I've not once--not a single time--seen language tags used to hide secrets on the server. (Of course not, because everyone can still read what's in the tags.) What I've seen languages used for is flavor, fleshing the PC out, and immersion. I also see PCs from time to time use it for obfuscation, but only in this way: when they want to insult another PC without the PC being aware of it IC. The language tag is then used so, for example, a PC can insult a garda without the garda being able to retaliate because the garda isn't "supposed to know" what the PC said. The reason this is done, though, is so everyone knows OOCly the garda has been insulted; otherwise, the comment would be whispered.

Much more often (playing a PC who has limited language skills and trying not to cheese), I have to ask other PCs to translate for me or even repeat what is said. Or they greet me and I ignore their greeting. I'm not complaining about this per se, because I chose my build. What I'm saying is the other PCs are inconvenienced by my not understanding, rather than feeling if I understood them I would somehow gain an unfair advantage.

The benefit, then, is a normal, standard 3.5 means of casters behaving as casters likely would: using their magic to do things like attend a play in Port-a-Lucine and understand what is going on. Or a trial. Or going to the Elven Court and RPing with the Elves without forcing all the Elves to speak in Common.

For clerics at least, in a 4th level slot it's not likely a spell to be carried around prepared and used spontaneously to listen secretly in on a conversation. Casting it would very likely reveal the PC's intent, and doing so in Vallaki would raise OCR. It would require forethought and preparation--for situations such as those described above.

To be sure, I can park my PC in any of these places and understand perfectly OOCly what's being said.

But that would be cheesing.

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2018, 10:10:17 PM »
Iridni, if you want to participate in forum discussions, please be civil, constructive, and straightforward. I've given you my thoughts, as the dev who created and maintains the language system; you don't like it; that's fine. I'd be happy to discuss my reasoning more one-on-one. Otherwise, I don’t really have much else to add here.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2018, 10:14:29 PM »
More times that I can count, I've had some of my characters interact with others in a language our characters were fairly certain most people that could overhear would not understand. It's something that featured quite heavily in some plot factions I've been apart of.

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2018, 10:26:15 PM »
More times that I can count, I've had some of my characters interact with others in a language our characters were fairly certain most people that could overhear would not understand. It's something that featured quite heavily in some plot factions I've been apart of.

I'll echo this.

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2018, 10:28:25 PM »
More times that I can count, I've had some of my characters interact with others in a language our characters were fairly certain most people that could overhear would not understand. It's something that featured quite heavily in some plot factions I've been apart of.

I'll echo this.

+1

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2018, 11:17:09 PM »
Building on an earlier point; the 3.5 and other systems of D&D are a collaborative team effort of players against a series of NPCs directed by the DM. It's a very PC vs NPC design, hence why there's a number of spells, abilities and other features inclined to foil situations that are designed as challenges to be overcome or be defeated by. Even in tabletop games it's rare indeed that multiple PCs facing each other would have to contend with the Tongues spell or similar features being available and attempting to engage in verbal subterfuge by use of a language.

POTM meanwhile as a server has a larger degree of player conflict. Subterfuge is necessary in a lot of cases and frequently employed in a variety of ways. Tongues as it was designed in 3.5 offers little to no counter except by adding increasingly obscure features that obfuscate what is being said, which just leads to an arms war of people countering the counters to counters of features; something that is ultimately pointless for anyone that falls short of the most recent addition. Tongues also trivializes the effort of other PCs put into the language system; not just in skill ranks or feat investitures but roleplay as well, given that it's considered appropriate for people to roleplay for real life months in the tutelage and learning of languages.

If Tongues were added at all, it would have to be contingent on radical changes to the spell's function. Adding a very high spellcheck DC for the spell to properly operate across multiple languages or even a check for each attempt at communication for example. At that point you might as well turn back to simple pictographs and body language communication. Instead of adding a spell that totally circumvents an entire roleplay system I'd rather see further improvements to said roleplay system; Arelith's language system by comparison is very robust, if only for the sake of actually OOC obfuscating communications so you can't know what people are saying behind their language tags. That's something I'd be much more interested in seeing instead, as far as the language system goes.

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2018, 03:56:08 AM »
I'd be more interested in the way the spells would actually fit the mechanics- because it still says the spell needs a saving throw or else it wouldn't work (something I find rather balanced compared to giving someone the ability to speak/understand automatically). The thing is, in the description of the spell, it specifies Will of the [creature touched] given it has enough intelligence.

So on himself, the caster would roll against his own DC? Of course I don't think it was designed like this, but it still would feel right to put an extra bump to roll over, as with the skill speak language. It could either be the same fixed DC for every langagues or a different one based on the origin of the character... Latter being a bit more complicated.

However, the way I've read the spell was that you nees to cast it -at- the creature which needs to be understood... Which is something resulting in being useless if someone wants to keep speaking in a secretive language or dangerous in some region of the Core wiht OCR.

Could make make it work one way or both... But the point is that most of the conflict has been on the casting of the spell on one's own seld, which would need balancing/adapting or a more restrained way to use.
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MAB77

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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2018, 07:54:10 AM »
As I've stated earlier, the main purpose of the "Tongue" spell in D&D game is to provide a mean for PCs to communicate with NPCs that do not share any given language. It should represent the vast majority of situations that spell would be required. However, this function is not required on PotM because of the prevalence of the Common tongue to almost anyone, PCs & NPCs alike. This alone already justifies not adding a tongue spell.

It would leaves us only with a game mechanic that would bypass the current language system at any time. Whereas in a P&P game the spell would be used on a "as needed" basis, on our server, it would only be just another extended spell cast after a player rested just in case. It would entirely disrupt the interesting possibilities the language system offers, some players already mentioned the pertinence of that in their plots. There is not any value or benefit for the server to add such spell.

As to the very few players not speaking common. Read Gothic Earth characters here, or even those doing it only by choice like a Barovian speaking only Balok. I very much prefer to keep a system which forces players to assume their character building choices. If they really had no other options at their disposal it would be one thing, but since they can fairly quickly learn the Common tongue IG themselves, it is preferable to leave a roleplay approach to the language issue rather than just a quick hack spell to bypass all that. It would lessen the quality of RP.

Also, soon some monks will be able to act as translators through the Tongue of Sun and Moon ability. A tongue spell would just render this ability pointless and again that would be a disservice to the server in general.

If the language system was different, my view on this may be different. But as it is now, I certainly feel a Tongue spell is not a good idea.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2018, 06:45:16 PM »
There isn't a proper NWN2 gothic horror server to compare this to so I can't fairly suggest attribution.  But it is incredibly interesting to me that on all servers where the language system scrambles and selectively unscrambles language based on your known languages and spell effects that the number of roleplayers concerned Tongues would negatively influence roleplay is exactly zero.

OP as much as I personally like your suggestion we can't ignore that pressuring volunteers into spending their time implementing things they feel would detract from the server can only lead to burnout.  Further since mystery is an intrinsic part of gothic horror I can accept the idea that spells which casually remove mystery are detrimental to the experience.  If it pleases the Dark Powers I would donate some time to devise a system that scrambles language as described.  After such a system has been in play for a few months that would be a good time to revisit the issue.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2018, 06:47:09 PM »
There isn't a proper NWN2 gothic horror server to compare this to so I can't fairly suggest attribution.  But it is incredibly interesting to me that on all servers where the language system scrambles and selectively unscrambles language based on your known languages and spell effects that the number of roleplayers concerned Tongues would negatively influence roleplay is exactly zero.

OP as much as I personally like your suggestion we can't ignore that pressuring volunteers into spending their time implementing things they feel would detract from the server can only lead to burnout.  Further since mystery is an intrinsic part of gothic horror I can accept the idea that spells which casually remove mystery are detrimental to the experience.  If it pleases the Dark Powers I would donate some time to devise a system that scrambles language as described.  After such a system has been in play for a few months that would be a good time to revisit the issue.

We've discussed scrambling language a couple times (including when I first wrote the system we have now) and decided against it for reasons of performance and OOC inclusiveness.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2018, 08:24:02 PM »
I've seen the use of language to keep others out of the loop quite often, and use it myself too. If there is a problem that results from that and someone metagaming, that should get reported... I don't think we need it honestly. I think adding such would make it too easy, as pointed out, but I also can see a small boon to it. More people could understand- but since we can do that now as the languages aren't scrambled, I don't think it's needed.  If the languages were scrambled then it would be more useful than disruptive.
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Re: Tongues (new spell)
« Reply #24 on: August 17, 2018, 04:14:16 AM »
I'll be honest. I don't actually pretend to obfuscate anything with a lang tag that's of any sensitive matter. The most important, secretive things to be spoken of that I've ever discussed ICly when I believed to be watched by stealthers were exchanged on paper notes ICly, which always ended up getting burned when we were done with it. The real problem comes down to the fact that if Sean Johnson, Stealth Supreme, decides he wants to walk up behind my Falkovnian, speaking in Falkovnian, and he doesn't *speak* Falkovnian, there's no way for the players to check eachother. I don't know that he's listened in on my conversation, and he could leave the information piecemeal and spread about so that I only hear about it getting out, eventually, months later. And from that point, it's more likely the individual I was discussing it with let it slip, than Sean Johnson, Stealth Supreme of all Languages. Falkovnian isn't an especially uncommon tongue in Ravenloft, but it's just an example. It could be Gothic Earth English, if you really want. Those situations rarely hit a DM or a CC for appeal because the victim rarely, if ever knows about it in the first place.

I'd rather we had language scrambling akin to Arelith. It's the one thing about that server that made languages *really* cool, and when you didn't understand the language? You really felt out of place. Outlanders in the Outskirts would actually decide to try to learn the tongue, if they realized they can't understand what the Garda are saying, ever. Foreigners in Port-a-Lucine might realize that attending Mordentish performances and engaging in dialogue with the natives is difficult unless they learn the language. Some people never do because while they don't feel the need to engage in dialogue, per se, with these people, they read that of which is being said, removing the drive to learn the language on an OOC level, which ultimately influences IC decisions when you're playing from the actor point of view, which to my understanding is the preferred perspective on this server.