Epic Feats: Stat boosts

[Iridni Ren]

Because of receiving 78 base stat points and then receiving five boosts along the way (4, 8, 12, 16, 20) for a total of 83, it's very easy for a PC to wind up with an odd stat. That's kind of annoying.

I'd like to propose all "Great" feats of the regular game be added as feats, with the prerequisite of being 20th level. The PC could then expend her 20th level feat for either Great charisma, constitution, dexterity, etc. and boost the appropriate stat 1 point.

This is not a huge change, as in the regular game these feats become available at 21st level, meaning it's only a one level difference. It's not unbalancing in that every class and every PC can take advantage of it equally (aside from ECLs, who can't achieve 20th level). Not many PCs reach 20th level, so its systems effect would be very small.

It mostly helps those of us with OCD

[Chabxxu]

Put an odd stat when creating your PC? Problem solved.

[Phantasia]

it's not 78. are you counting your total scores? lol.

regardless, more valid input I suppose. totally against epic stat boost feats. we don't need them.

[Iridni Ren]

it's not 78. are you counting your total scores? lol.

regardless, more valid input I suppose. totally against epic stat boost feats. we don't need them.

It is 78: (6 x 8 ) + 30.

"We don't need them" is not more valid input either. Any change requested we clearly don't "need," given the server has been running for more than a decade without said change.

[Phantasia]

Let's see here.

We start with 30 points to allocate to a base statistic line of 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8.

32 if you are a race that wants to duck a stat down to -6. So a potential of 37 total attribute points to allocate to your character sheet.

If you cannot within 37 points to allocate find a character sheet that achieves a primary attribute of 22 (at level 20) or even 20 (or hell even 18), then no "Great" (i.e. Great Dexterity I) feat is going help you.

That, and the team in the past has expressed a rather rigid stance on offering items and feats that increase attributes by even 1 point. See: Staff of Elketh, which was removed from the loot tables years ago.

Oh, and not to mention ECL subraces of which I believe you have a character of currently! I don't see how you're struggling to find an even stat sheet.

[snowfox]

Odd stats are, might I mention, not a problem at all. As was pointed out in the thread on static attribute buffs, you can get +3 on your modifier with an odd stat and a maximized or lucky buff, or a +4 on an empowered.

[MAB77]

If you think about it, the issue would be equally solved by having only 4 stat raise every 5 level (but rest assured we are not going that way).

I would also point out that it is the exception and not the norm that people manage to get the full +12 buffing bonus on any given stat. The readily available buffing options usually granting 1d4+1 bonus means that ending with an odd stat isn't in itself problematic at all.

Furthermore do consider that starting with a 17 instead of 18 on your main stat frees up 3 points you can use elsewhere. Sure starting with 18 gives you an edge, though at the cost of something else. Either options are valid ones, it forces players to make choives instead of having just the one optimal path, which is always desireable.

[Mereyn]

From a practical point of view, I would prefer Devs spend their time fixing all the broken things on the server and creating new content (new areas and enhancing existing ones), rather than perhaps for the sake of some marginal tweaking break things that currently work.

[ladylena]

Whenever I've had an odd stat, I just put the point into str. Carry weight is great, also in my mind it would make sense at a later level that after lugging around all the gear and items and corpses you'd get stronger. But that is just me. Aesthetically I hate odd numbers, but I just don't look at them

[TheFury]

Oh, and not to mention ECL subraces of which I believe you have a character of currently! I don't see how you're struggling to find an even stat sheet.

this is a person specific point, already addressed, and not relevant to the great majority of the characters on the server.

That being said, I think with so many feats having an odd stat requirement anyway, odd stats aren't the death of anyone (see: expertise, great cleave, ambidexterity, etc)

Would it be nice to have the ability to maybe select a single epic feat at level 20? Heck yeah, and it'd be a little cherry on top for people who actually make it there. Is it something that'll ultimately make a difference for most of the server? Not at all. Ultimately I don't think it matters much, just adding additional options to character builds. If that's a sufficient reason to make what I bet would be a minor coding change, so be it. Otherwise, eh. It's not worth massive argument.

[Iridni Ren]

From a practical point of view, I would prefer Devs spend their time fixing all the broken things on the server and creating new content (new areas and enhancing existing ones), rather than perhaps for the sake of some marginal tweaking break things that currently work.

Very true, and I stand by that. This is not a request I'm vested in at all, but it does seem to be easy enough to implement and unlikely to cause bugs, given the feats exist in the standard game. What you quote, however, is something subjective and my opinion/preference: it is not a "reason" for the Devs to do or not do anything. It is akin to Sword's saying he is "totally against epic stat boosts" without saying why. There's no arguing with a person's preference.

The Devs will do what the Devs will do regardless of subjective opinions, which is the reason for discussing the more objective pros and cons of any change, aside from personal preference.

I would rather bugs be fixed and new areas be added than this change. If the Devs continue to add feats, however, these are some feats I think would be easy to do, not overpowered, and fair to all characters and classes (with the already noted exception of ECLs).

As for the odd stat problem, that there might be other ways to circumvent it is not actually an argument against this change either. The discussion here should center only on the normal reasons for making or not making changes (not whether I play an ECL, not arguments I've made about other changes, etc. as those are off-topic and about the person not the change itself).

What matters is how difficult the feat would be to do or whether it unbalances the game in some way. If both those hurdles can be overcome, then is it something that would provide for greater variety of PCs and builds that would enhance the experience of players?

Everything else is not on point.

[Phantasia]

As for the odd stat problem, that there might be other ways to circumvent it is not actually an argument against this change either.

You mean like building a mechanically sound character with a stat line that compliments their strengths and not trying to invest in everything at once? As for posing a reason against this, what small percentage of players are actually going to benefit from an additional stat bump at level 20? Wizards maxing INT? Elf DEX builds? There are just better things to focus on.

Additionally, I also said that the team would likely reject this notion due to their stance on items and attribute enhancement in general in my previous response. But hey, if it can be added, let's just throw all caution to the wind and add it!

[snowfox]

Though you may not want an odd ability score for aesthetic or whatever kind of reason, the point remains that it is not a problem and continues to be not a problem. There is little to no reason to introduce a mechanical change that won't affect even half the characters made, it won't change anything mechanically (as per the point I made above) - why would you want to take a feat that does nothing for you at all when playing as the server wants you to?

[Iridni Ren]

As for the odd stat problem, that there might be other ways to circumvent it is not actually an argument against this change either.

You mean like building a mechanically sound character with a stat line that compliments their strengths and not trying to invest in everything at once? As for posing a reason against this, what small percentage of players are actually going to benefit from an additional stat bump at level 20? Wizards maxing INT? Elf DEX builds? There are just better things to focus on.

Additionally, I also said that the team would likely reject this notion due to their stance on items and attribute enhancement in general in my previous response. But hey, if it can be added, let's just throw all caution to the wind and add it!

It seems to me that your arguments are self-contradictory: on the one hand the change affects a small percentage of players and in a miinor way (that already can be achieved via other means like "builidng a mechanically sound character"), but on the other, we would be "throwing all caution to the wind" to consider it.

I won't presume to speak for the Devs, but that's the reason for presenting ideas at all: to see how the Devs will react

 

why would you want to take a feat that does nothing for you at all when playing as the server wants you to?

There are available ways of solving most problems on the server. Players' choosing to solve them in personally meaningful ways allows greater freedom of expression and choice about their PCs.

We have potions, which were greatly enhanced recently by additional herbs. Was that a problem that needed solving? Weren't most of those things achievable by having a spellcaster along or through scrolls? Adding the herbs/potions created more options.

I don't see why allowing PCs at 20th level to spend their feat on a stat point if they choose to needs this sort of justification (just as if a player chose Dirty Fighting as a feat). Does the feat make the PC unbalanced? No, virtually any PC can choose to do it if she wishes, tailoring the choice to her own preference/advantage.

If the feat does nothing at all, as with Sword, I ask why the strident reaction against it?

[APorg]

I think it'd be more interesting if you allowed Ability boosting Feats to be taken only for Abilities that were below 10.

Allowing people to boost Abilities that are already high just creates rather simple optimal strategies. The optimal strategy for all level 20 wizards would be to get that INT 24; ditto many builds. Build strategies shouldn't be simple.

On the other hand, allowing a level 20 fighter to boost, say, their WIS 9 to 10, or CHA 9 to 10, and so on, that wouldn't be a simple gimme choice.

[hot dog]

I think it'd be more interesting if you allowed Ability boosting Feats to be taken only for Abilities that were below 10.

Allowing people to boost Abilities that are already high just creates rather simple optimal strategies. The optimal strategy for all level 20 wizards would be to get that INT 24; ditto many builds. Build strategies shouldn't be simple.

On the other hand, allowing a level 20 fighter to boost, say, their WIS 9 to 10, or CHA 9 to 10, and so on, that wouldn't be a simple gimme choice.

I think this is a fabulous idea +1

[BraveSirRobin]

Oh, and not to mention ECL subraces of which I believe you have a character of currently! I don't see how you're struggling to find an even stat sheet.

Her character has nothing to do with the validity of the argument at hand. Slaps wrist.

Spoiler: Ad Hominem • show

Oh, and not to mention ECL subraces of which I believe you have a character of currently! I don't see how you're struggling to find an even stat sheet.

this is a person specific point, already addressed, and not relevant to the great majority of the characters on the server.

That being said, I think with so many feats having an odd stat requirement anyway, odd stats aren't the death of anyone (see: expertise, great cleave, ambidexterity, etc)

Would it be nice to have the ability to maybe select a single epic feat at level 20? Heck yeah, and it'd be a little cherry on top for people who actually make it there. Is it something that'll ultimately make a difference for most of the server? Not at all. Ultimately I don't think it matters much, just adding additional options to character builds. If that's a sufficient reason to make what I bet would be a minor coding change, so be it. Otherwise, eh. It's not worth massive argument.

I really like that idea. I really like that idea. One epic feat for a Level 20 would be sweet.

[BahamutZ3RO]

My biggest beef with this is that we shouldn't be making content for people at 20.

[Philos]

My biggest beef with this is that we shouldn't be making content for people at 20.

^ this

[Nemesis 24]

My biggest beef with this is that we shouldn't be making content for people at 20.

^ this

I agree even as someone who would directly benefit from this.  It encourages the 'get to 20' race too much for a start.

[Philos]

Oh, and not to mention ECL subraces of which I believe you have a character of currently! I don't see how you're struggling to find an even stat sheet.

Her character has nothing to do with the validity of the argument at hand. Slaps wrist.

Spoiler: Ad Hominem • show

BSR, there's a difference between pointing out a potential point of bias someone may have and an Ad Honinem attack. It comes up all the time in stealth and detection debates/arguments. It's fair to say that a persons viewpoint might be too narrow due to their niche experiences to suggest a broad change.

[Grendlykins, Simp of Azalin Rex]

Balancing exclusively in favour of level 20 PCs, of which there are statistically very few if none at all relative to the larger player base is just poor design philosophy from my point of view; while devs are free to pursue what they take interest in, at the same time they'd ideally want the most bang for their buck in terms of time spent versus the resultant output. In addition to this; level 20's are already paragons of their respective niches and overwhelmingly strong comparative to most of the other characters on the server; stating that a change that only affects those level 20's is a minor change is flawed, given that each maximum levelled character hanging about is comparatively strong. Giving them even more tools to widen this gap just puts more emphasis on a levelling to 20 mentality which is unproductive and borderline unhealthy for the server and for the individual; considering the amount of time it takes to level to 20 it promotes people dropping countless hours of their lives into a grind mentality which doesn't benefit anyone and if anything negatively affects the playerbase.

Addressing the beneficial side of such a change; uneven stats will almost always be superior to even stats when considered in context of buffing in my opinion. Only in a vacuum where you receive no stat buffs is an uneven stat a 'detriment'. Bumping up said uneven stat means you'll be better baseline but when someone throws out a buff that hits an uneven number you're back to where you were before and considering that the chances of hitting an uneven stat are higher than an even one, statistically you're better off with that uneven baseline stat for when you do receive a buff.

Considering the initial statement of this change being largely for the benefit of those who are disgruntled at the appearance of uneven numbers on their stat distribution; you're always going to encounter this. There is no solution other than not looking at your physical attributes if it causes you distress.

TL;DR - No, don't do that. It doesn't fix any problems, creates more issues and imbalances things more in favour of already strong characters for no real reason other than power for the sake of power.

[PrimetheGrime]

Balancing exclusively in favour of level 20 PCs, of which there are statistically very few if none at all relative to the larger player base is just poor design philosophy from my point of view; while devs are free to pursue what they take interest in, at the same time they'd ideally want the most bang for their buck in terms of time spent versus the resultant output. In addition to this; level 20's are already paragons of their respective niches and overwhelmingly strong comparative to most of the other characters on the server; stating that a change that only affects those level 20's is a minor change is flawed, given that each maximum levelled character hanging about is comparatively strong. Giving them even more tools to widen this gap just puts more emphasis on a levelling to 20 mentality which is unproductive and borderline unhealthy for the server and for the individual; considering the amount of time it takes to level to 20 it promotes people dropping countless hours of their lives into a grind mentality which doesn't benefit anyone and if anything negatively affects the playerbase.

Addressing the beneficial side of such a change; uneven stats will almost always be superior to even stats when considered in context of buffing in my opinion. Only in a vacuum where you receive no stat buffs is an uneven stat a 'detriment'. Bumping up said uneven stat means you'll be better baseline but when someone throws out a buff that hits an uneven number you're back to where you were before and considering that the chances of hitting an uneven stat are higher than an even one, statistically you're better off with that uneven baseline stat for when you do receive a buff.

Considering the initial statement of this change being largely for the benefit of those who are disgruntled at the appearance of uneven numbers on their stat distribution; you're always going to encounter this. There is no solution other than not looking at your physical attributes if it causes you distress.

TL;DR - No, don't do that. It doesn't fix any problems, creates more issues and imbalances things more in favour of already strong characters for no real reason other than power for the sake of power.

+1

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

Slight related suggestion to the OP what is once you hit level 20 after you get say X amount of XP you get a sort of 'mini level up' where in you could get something that unlocks at that point which is purposefully tailored for the level 20 being able to do something special for those of lower level (Say specifically lvls 12 or less) for mentoring or tutoring purposes?

[Iridni Ren]

Addressing the balancing aspect:

A +1 ability gain is normally allowed in the regular game at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20 in addition to everything else gained at those levels.  One point in ability is equal to 1/83 of a PC's total (possible) ability points.  This feat is takeable at *every level* in the basic game, starting at level 21, which is only 1 level higher than 20th, but in the basic game it could be in theory taken a total of 20 times.

Yet there are other epic feats available. If this feat is superior to other epic feats and over-powered, then no one would take other epic feats, instead taking this feat in the basic game 20 times.

Compare, then, Overwhelming Critical. In the basic game, it requires a Strength of 23+ and 21st level. On POTM, it in contrast requires only 17th level and an 18th Str. Yet it must be a better feat than the one I've suggested, or no one would ever take it in the base game. The PC would always choose a stat boost instead.

So if this feat is unbalanced, so is Over-whelming Critical.

Likewise, Greater Weapon Focus, which is equivalent to Epic Weapon Focus in the base game, and here becomes available at 13th level (instead of 21st).

One can have a personal preference for each feat, but one can't reasonably argue that the above feats are balanced, and the proposed isn't.

Moreover, the above epic feats aren't equally attractive to all classes, whereas PCs of any class can benefit from this feat.

Now, regarding the odd / even dilemma. As I said earlier, a standard PC receives 83 stat points maximum over the course of her career.  This means if she makes maximum efficiency of her points (never spending 2 stat points for one, for example), she *must* wind up on an odd stat. The way to avoid this is to "waste" a point by spending two points to boost her stats by a single point (such as raising a stat from 14 to 15). However, if she does this again to make her stat even to start with, she will again wind up with her stats odd at the end.

Let's look finally at the end game. The PC hits level 16. She can now have an odd stat that she will fix with her 20th level bump. But that means from 16 to 19 she has an odd stat (which could be for many months or even years of playing). Knowing that she could take this feat at 20th level means instead that she can have even points from 16 to 19...and then boost her points by two at the end (1 with the feat, 1 by the normal bump) and still finish with even stats in everything.

So even if this feat ultimately comes into play only at 20th level, it makes deciding how to allocate points throughout the life of the PC easier in terms of efficiency with an eye toward the finished product.