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Author Topic: Suggestion: Better Inns  (Read 4206 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Suggestion: Better Inns
« on: July 21, 2018, 02:47:33 PM »
So I've been thinking about inns, and how they're sort of an afterthought. Everyone just crowds into the Lady's Rest in spite of there only being four rooms up there, and inns aren't really a necessity for anyone so people just pass out in the grass or on the floor of the temple or whatever... so here's my suggestion to change that.

1) Implement renting rooms in the same way that the Governor's Hotel uses, but do it *everywhere*. Make sure there's a variety of sizes at a variety of prices.

2) Provide storage within the rooms.

This kills a whole lot of birds with one stone: It acts as a permanent gold sink the way the penthouse in the Governor's does. It acts as a form of player housing without actually *being* player-owned housing. And it gives people an incentive to go to lesser-frequented locations like the inns inside Vallaki's walls.
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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2018, 04:35:13 PM »
This would be great to see. I'd even suggest at least make the Blood and Vine have rentable rooms like the Govenor. Not many people use it anyway since the wildly long hallways take you twenty minutes to get to your room at a walk. The common room downstairs could be left alone for those that just want a quick place to stay. The lady having four rooms tho isn't exactly the greatest to do this because often people need a quick place to rp inside or in a room for a wounded or drunk companion. Just my two cents.

I would say this could be a decent idea for about every inn ig actually except the lady's rest since it is the starter zone.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 04:37:34 PM by Fearghas »

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2018, 05:26:58 PM »
+1

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2018, 05:34:56 PM »
This has been suggested before...and shot down for the usual reasons.

Most recently in January:

After reading through all of this - I can’t help but to think something I’m sure other people have thought but not said. The reason the Governor’s Hotel is controlled by a select few people day-in and day-out is because those people spend their time in Port-a-Lucine and use it frequently as an RP base of sorts. An extension of their characters and reasonably so. Village of Barovia’s inn having a similar mechanic, especially considering how many bloody rooms it has, would work well I think.

If there were more rentable buildings people could use, the competition wouldn’t be so fierce. As it stands, <10 locations are available server-wide, and all of them are in Port.

What previous people have stated about separating the player base is also more or less true. If people want to be super secret, they can be. Can someone stumble in? Sure. Is it likely? No, not really. It just makes it even more of a separation to make sure you’re suitably out of the way.


That’s really all I have to say on this. I saw the thread never actually came to a conclusion or a definitive point, and yet still several points were up in the air. Of all the radical changes this server has been making, not even speaking for myself here — I’m one of the few who currently have a Governor’s Suite snagged — It would make a world of difference for a sense of ownership and accomplishment.

That's where the discussion began. Read forward (or back) to see why we were told no.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2018, 09:40:22 PM »
As Iridni stated, we've already said that player housing wasn't something we wanted to add on the server for many reason... perhaps one maybe two place could have a system like in port? But I'm personally opposed to it for the same reason we aren't adding player housing.

I don't think there is much else to say.
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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2018, 10:28:24 PM »
I don't really understand the reasoning behind not wanting it; we've seen it work really well in Port-a-Lucine, to the point where the Governor's Hotel has been used as a base of operations and meeting point for the people who have controlled it. Even with it being used that way, the people who temporarily own those rooms don't disappear from the server or stop interacting with people, if anything I think it's been a good tool for furthering RP in Port.

It just seems a pretty simple way to give players the tools they need to do their own thing without DM intervention (eg; the Drain's back rooms).
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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2018, 10:40:17 PM »
I actually do not think it's working well in Port... the rooms are being owned always by the same person, making those place exclusive to the people owning them for as long as they pay for it... and we know people have kept certain rooms for months and even for more than a year before. I personally think its a waste of area

You can still use the inn rooms for meeting point/base of operation even if you do not have exclusivity on it... players already have all the tool necessary without DM intervention to do their own thing. I prefer having those area available to everyone rather than to a select few players who got there first to buy the room.

The drain room I consider it more like a faction place, I don't think it can be compared the inn's room.

The inn rooms as they are right now, gives everyone the opportunity to use them as a tool for their RP. Changing it the system you propose would prevent the big majority of people from doing that anymore.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2018, 10:43:20 PM »
I don't think there's any point in arguing about this because the justification has been that creating additional hubs splits the player base.

So winning or losing the argument the two of you are currently having won't influence whether the idea is implemented.

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2018, 10:45:53 PM »
To correct myself, Vallaki could have rented places without splitting the player base.

(And IC those are apparently being advertised as we post.)

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48290
« Last Edit: July 21, 2018, 10:48:11 PM by Iridni Ren »

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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2018, 10:48:21 PM »
The drain room I consider it more like a faction place, I don't think it can be compared the inn's room.


The Drain is explicitly not a faction place anymore, and last time I inquired about getting a room down there I was told that I'd be charged by the month for a key to a room, which is pretty much what I'm suggesting except with the extra step of requiring a DM to do it.

Quote
The inn rooms as they are right now, gives everyone the opportunity to use them as a tool for their RP. Changing it the system you propose would prevent the big majority of people from doing that anymore.

The inn rooms are really not a great option for doing anything if you're actually concerned about what you're talking about. You can never be sure whether the room is secure, and if anyone needs to get in all they need to do is buy a key and walk in. As it stands, it's safer to meet pretty much anywhere else, which means those areas get underutilized except for people who don't know any better, or people who need to find a place to rest off their rez sickness or prep spells before their rest timer will allow.

Quote
I don't think there's any point in arguing about this because the justification has been that creating additional hubs splits the player base.

I doubt this would split the player base any more than existing systems like the RP XP limits have.
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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2018, 11:15:53 PM »
So winning or losing the argument the two of you are currently having won't influence whether the idea is implemented.

I don't think it's about winning or losing, but more about sharing our point of view on the subject, whether or not it has influence on the final choice.  ;)


Also I do not think inn's room are underutilized as you said, I have used them for RP many many times, regularly. Every place doesn't have to be designed to a top secret base for people with business.

In any case, I think I've shared my point of view on the matter.
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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2018, 02:18:24 AM »
I don't think there's any point in arguing about this because the justification has been that creating additional hubs splits the player base.

So winning or losing the argument the two of you are currently having won't influence whether the idea is implemented.

Splitting the playerbase is not a valid argument from the staff, because it directly contradicts them trying to separate higher and lower levels. Which splits the player base.

Just look at that automated XP drip.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2018, 04:39:42 AM »
Either remove it from port or have similiar system in valaki/the village. It's perfectly reasonable.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2018, 05:15:06 AM »
literally suggested this not that long ago and it was shot down! lol
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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2018, 04:07:44 PM »
I remember it being shot down. But people want it and it is reasonable and it is true that it doesn't split player base beyond what is already done by the rp xp system. People will and should continue to ask for something they want to see. If it is shot down this time I say we ask again in 6 months. Permanent housing comes up in player wish lists all the time. The key system for inn rooms, in at least certain places, gives an outlet for that without changing the server to do it with huts and houses. Port is a niche place. Most PC's don't fit being ppl that would settle down there. Having at least one place in a non french setting that you can rp living in like the village or elsewhere wouldn't be so bad. This is why the mist camp at one time had a bustling shanty town once upon a time with the carpentry tools. The server is bigger than it has been.numbers trippling. Even if everyone that wanted a semi permanent room wanted to live in Port there wouldn't be enough rooms to go round anyway.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2018, 05:19:02 PM »
I support the idea, FWIW, and I think it's certainly an inconsistent message to tell us on the one hand we don't have enough players to support additional hubs...and then make the recent change to RP XP, which was already a system the majority of players thought stunk, so as to force many of us away from the hub we prefer. But I'm also not fond of repetitively arguing a case and thereby coming off as a negative and critical player.

What I would suggest, therefore, is instead of revisiting the same shot-down arguments every few months, focusing on how things have changed versus the arguments the Team has made. Specifically, do we now have enough players to support an additional hub, given the increase in average numbers?

I do not disagree with what the rest of you are saying. I'm saying only that those arguments have been made and turned aside very recently.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2018, 06:08:04 PM »
I think the philosophy of not wanting to create hubs and divide the playerbase is quite frankly, obsolete. It is the consistent response that is given when changes and suggestions are given in this realm of "quality of life" updates.

I could see not wanting to divide the player-base with a population of say, 20. But there are on average 60-70 people playing. I think that with EE, the overall mentality needs to be adjusted - and inn tweaks would be a great addition to that. Give people a chance to roleplay and tell stories in other places besides the outskirts - and port, I bet you would be amazed at what can happen.

It boils down to time, and developer interest. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 07:03:48 PM by HM01 »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2018, 07:24:13 PM »
I think the philosophy of not wanting to create hubs and divide the playerbase is quite frankly, obsolete. It is the consistent response that is given when changes and suggestions are given in this realm of "quality of life" updates.

I could see not wanting to divide the player-base with a population of say, 20. But there are on average 60-70 people playing. I think that with EE, the overall mentality needs to be adjusted - and inn tweaks would be a great addition to that. Give people a chance to roleplay and tell stories in other players besides the outskirts - and port, I bet you would be amazed at what can happen.

It boils down to time, and developer interest.

I agree. A lot of characters simply don't fit in Port IC, and we have been OOCly forced away from our natural hub. My understanding is the MC is "supposed" to be the second hub in any case, but hanging out in the MC has always seemed to me a guaranteed way to exclude oneself from anything but dungeon runs. The Village of Barovia is the obvious place for many if not most PCs to migrate to because it fits with the setting that most of choose to play on this server because we enjoy. It is also a well-developed and finished piece of the module and perhaps the most atmospheric place of all.

Geographically, it is pretty central to the well-travelled portions of the server, and when the ferry is running, even Krezk is not that far.

The Blood o' the Vine begs to be made into something like the Governor's Hotel.

Going back to the splitting the player base, does anyone really think that except for certain kinds of events in which most PCs play "audience" rather than actively participating, it's possible to have 20 or 30 PCs involved at once? Generally, players are RPing in groups of two to maybe eight.

Currently high levels have three options:

1) Remain in Vallaki, earning no XP and generally being told OOCly we're not wanted.

2) Go to the Mist Camp and dungeon grind.

3) Artificially insert ourselves into Port, regardless of character history or motivation.

I also agree with HM01 that VoB might spark some new kinds of stories because it's inevitable that the Outskirts lends itself to repetition at this point.

Would long-term inn rooms in VoB create all that magic? I don't know, but they aren't going to hurt anything as far as splitting the player base. The very worst thing that could happen is, in fact, no one uses them.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2018, 08:00:29 PM »
Quote
Would long-term inn rooms in VoB create all that magic? I don't know, but they aren't going to hurt anything as far as splitting the player base. The very worst thing that could happen is, in fact, no one uses them.

Perhaps it's a design failure on our part, but the Village is not meant to be a welcoming place; no one in their right mind wants to stay there. Here's how it's described in canon, to give you an idea:

Quote from: Gazetteer III
The Village of Barovia is arguably the realm's bleakest settlement. [...] The villagers who dwell here are horribly wretched even for Barovians, plodding through their daily rituals with the hollow look of prisoners. The whole town is wrapped in a palpable morbid aura, as if the fog was a funeral shroud and the citizens the walking dead. [...] The burgomaster, a cruel and restless widow by the name of Vanda Atanasius, loathes her duties in such a place and abuses the peasantry more out of spite than anything. Travelers along the Old Svalich Road typically pay their fee to the Vistani and hurry on about their business.

These are the most xenophobic, fearful, downtrodden Barovians. They wouldn't tolerate a lot of outlanders just loitering around their town. It'd be wholly artificial to install a hub there, it'd make no sense ICly at all.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2018, 08:29:50 PM »
It's not being requested to be turned into a hub just that the key system on an inn be changed.

Saying none of us should want to spend time in vob is hard to see. Considering everywhere else is so packed with ampcs. Killer Garda. Mages burning the town folk. Civil wars. Assassins. A sleepy if superstious and wretched town sounds like a vacation spot compared to other places.

And if we should all know this. There is a reason we dont. Because lil to no rp happens there. Maybe if the place got used we could see that it's wretched and bleak.  And that is more rp. Outskirts I'm sure by Canon is not a mess of ppl standing outside at night but it is.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 08:35:43 PM by Fearghas »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2018, 09:09:52 PM »
The inhospitable argument has been made before, but for this persistent world it doesn't hold water.

In canon, Barovia is a place in which PCs of second level being sucked into the Mists is a rare occurrence. Being Misted is of such note that the adventuring party involving Ireena Kolyana is on the historical timeline. In POTM, new adventurers have been pouring in constantly for more than a decade so that everyone treats it as routine.

An Inn exists to have business. In point of fact, there is nothing stopping a player or group of players from renting the same rooms night after night for as long as they want currently.

If these were actual IC reasons for why things are the way they are, then the Blood o' the Vine should refuse to rent rooms to Outlanders. Or there should not be an Inn at all because it would have shuttered from lack of clientele.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2018, 09:25:19 PM »
The inhospitable argument has been made before, but for this persistent world it doesn't hold water.

I hope that people play here at least partially because of the setting and world they are in. You can treat it as a generic fantasy if you want but we try to portray it as it is meant to be, with compromises along the way (especially around Vallaki since it's where new players come from). The Village, being an iconic feature of Ravenloft, perhaps the most iconic after the Castle, is one of those places where we won't compromise canon vs convenience.

You mention that your style of roleplay doesn't fit in Port but instead of making an effort to integrate, you want us to reshape the world and adapt it to your character.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 09:44:44 PM by EO »

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2018, 10:09:25 PM »
I actually do not think it's working well in Port... the rooms are being owned always by the same person, making those place exclusive to the people owning them for as long as they pay for it... and we know people have kept certain rooms for months and even for more than a year before. I personally think its a waste of area

You can still use the inn rooms for meeting point/base of operation even if you do not have exclusivity on it... players already have all the tool necessary without DM intervention to do their own thing. I prefer having those area available to everyone rather than to a select few players who got there first to buy the room.

The drain room I consider it more like a faction place, I don't think it can be compared the inn's room.

The inn rooms as they are right now, gives everyone the opportunity to use them as a tool for their RP. Changing it the system you propose would prevent the big majority of people from doing that anymore.

I might point out that there aren't even enough regular players in Port-a-Lucine to fill all 17 rooms of the Governor's Hotel at once. There are 12 Traveller's Suites, 4 Guest Suites, and 1 Penthouse. They are relatively expensive to maintain and keep, though not untoward in price compared to Port-a-Lucine-players' incomes. They renew every week. Admittedly, my character had his room for about six months, on and off. But that's because the character has lived inside of Port-a-Lucine, since early February. It was integral to his role play and allowed me to have conversations behind closed doors where any common joe can't just grab a key and check in on us, which is something that is fundamental to Port-a-Lucine's style of intrigue and deception.


This isn't including the Tenements, which is basically the Lady's Rest Inn Room-sized place, for 200 GP per RL month, and I think the Tenements have about ten or twelve rooms, too, but I may be mistaken. So player 'housing' in Port-a-Lucine is roughly 30 rooms, give or take, large, and that's over half of our active playerbase at any given time. There's never a lack of rooms, there's just a lack of the 'fancy' rooms that everyone covets. People are spoiled, and want the Penthouse, or one of the Guest Suites and throw a tantrum when they don't have it. But the people who usually have it, using them enough to justify the 1,500 GP - 10,000 GP price of the bill, depending on which room and how many keys you're renting out, per week.

Now, this being said, I don't really see a way or a place beyond the Blood o' The Vine that could be useful in Barovia as a similar system, because Barovia isn't about intrigue and politics, and secret closed-door hush-hush scheming. Barovia is about IADUL OUTLANDERS and the beasts of the night trying to murder and destroy everything.

What I WOULD like to point out and propose, however, is how difficult it is to get any resemblance of privacy on this server. It is considered wholly legit, IC, right-now, to be able to go through and take a key from the Lady's Rest, and open all the doors just to peep on what's going on behind them. I can't tell you how many times people just catch a man and a woman in there and the rumors start, or how many times someone is trying to have a closed conversation and the door is opened just as someone speaks. People want privacy, and in order to find their privacy, they are forced to go to unpopular areas of the server where they are less likely to be happened upon. Say, the Wachter Estate. The commons in Outpost Krezk, Blood o' The Vine (which is what was stated as the opposite intent..) and the Fishing Lodge, to do their clandestine, closed-door meetings. This is actually a contributing factor that is doing the opposite of the intent, forcing people to go far away from the common areas of the server, just so they can be alone and talk about whatever it is they're talking about. People will do that, whether you try to corral them with nonsensical OOC incentives or not.

So, to counteract this, I propose we change up the scripting behind a lot of the taverns, so that each room has a different key, and is a different room. You talk to Bianca, the script checks to see if any of the rooms are currently occupied or the key is rented out. The renting lasts until you walk back out of the room, and the key disappears from your pocket, or the room has no entities inside of them with the key on them. If you go in an opposite direction of Bianca, into the main room, you step on a trigger that also forces you to lose the key, to keep people from buying a key and holding on to it.


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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2018, 10:21:04 PM »
Quote
So, to counteract this, I propose we change up the scripting behind a lot of the taverns, so that each room has a different key, and is a different room. You talk to Bianca, the script checks to see if any of the rooms are currently occupied or the key is rented out. The renting lasts until you walk back out of the room, and the key disappears from your pocket, or the room has no entities inside of them with the key on them. If you go in an opposite direction of Bianca, into the main room, you step on a trigger that also forces you to lose the key, to keep people from buying a key and holding on to it.

Not sure how feasible this is but it's not a bad idea. There are many implications involved so not 100% sure it can be implemented but in theory it solves many problems without creating new ones.

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Re: Suggestion: Better Inns
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2018, 11:29:27 PM »
Quote
So, to counteract this, I propose we change up the scripting behind a lot of the taverns, so that each room has a different key, and is a different room. You talk to Bianca, the script checks to see if any of the rooms are currently occupied or the key is rented out. The renting lasts until you walk back out of the room, and the key disappears from your pocket, or the room has no entities inside of them with the key on them. If you go in an opposite direction of Bianca, into the main room, you step on a trigger that also forces you to lose the key, to keep people from buying a key and holding on to it.

Not sure how feasible this is but it's not a bad idea. There are many implications involved so not 100% sure it can be implemented but in theory it solves many problems without creating new ones.

That idea already makes much more sense to me.
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