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Author Topic: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling  (Read 4045 times)

Arawn

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2018, 11:53:50 PM »
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It's one thing to talk about preventing advantages, it's another to address inherent disadvantages that make playing a subrace a masochistic endeavor. [...] If you didn't want these things around the server, just get rid of those races. But don't go to bed at night thinking anyone for a moment isn't sacrificing half of their gameplay experience to play an unfulfilling line of roleplay, compared to practically anything else they could do on the server.

This is melodramatic, subjective, imprecise, and unhelpful. Please contribute focused and specific feedback, aiming where possible for objectivity. Plenty of players find the experience fulfilling, plenty of players (including me) have played ECL 3 or higher subraces without feeling particularly mechanically or narratively disadvantaged. Presenting your own frustrations as irrefutable facts doesn't help the discussion at all. Even if it's only a subset of ECL players who feel the curve is too steep, that alone would be reason enough for us to listen without resorting to overstatement and hyperbole.

Quote
It might be more feasible to start tackling the conversion of such races in a drip feed fashion, starting with a few races that are relatively rare and then moving up towards the more common ones. Doing a "big bang" implementation is definitely going to be a huge amount of work up front, while also having more risk of errors; instead, rolling out freshly re-made races one by one might make the task more manageable.

I'll try looking into it when I have some time, see how much time it takes to follow the instructions in the link above and mock something up.

We're definitely intrigued by the possibility and have looked into options, but there are a number of issues we'd have to work out (permissions, for example, and the sheer size/complexity of the necessary implementation).
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Insignia

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2018, 02:57:50 AM »
Honestly, I think Robin pretty much nailed a lot of what I am feeling now that I have gotten to mid level on the server. Obviously a ton of time has been sunk into my character to be level 13 aasimar (Level 15) from his creation back in January. Never played a paladin before, never played an Aasimar before, but I think I'm fairly clear with everyone I speak with to NEVER choose an ECL 2 race on this server. I found the experience of having my character learn bits and pieces about his ancestry quite rewarding, don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the RP greatly, and I still love the RP -- However, once the dust settles and you are doing a dungeon with a group and you are expected to be performing with the same output of a standard race who is two levels higher, the problems and disadvantages become glaring and dissatisfying. I would never trade a feat and a skill point per level for ECL 1, that just seems silly to me.

Personally I would love to have something where even just the ECL could be changed back to 1, which is a much more manageable difference in levels between standard and application based races. Is there some kind of easier workaround that doesn't require an entire redesigning of an xp system? Like perhaps having a dummy feat that all Tieflings and Aasimars have to take a level 1? I really don't feel like the skill points make much of a different tbh, classes typically have enough to cover what they -need-, but may not always have enough for what they -want-. It seems like if having to fill out an application to play a race where you are at a clear disadvantage to playing a human, then why not do away with it and just play a human who seems to have some 'abnormal' traits?

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2018, 03:44:39 AM »
Well, when speaking in terms of the master race you all seem to have forgotten Half Vistani, but yes humans are pretty stronk  :lol:

Some pretty neat ideas floating around about how to change xp so that it's not so unforgiving on lower levels, which I like. No one wants to -have- to leech xp to level. Obviously there's rp xp too, but still. I like dungoening and I know other people do and, you know, it's dungeons and dragons. Dungeons and rp aren't mutually exclusive. It's a rp server sure, but being able to get xp off of monsters you kill should also be viable even if your'e playing a difficult subrace. I do think that overall they should probably hit mid levels and level cap out as they already are. I'm not sure that anyone has been contending that though, Iridni even did a lot of magic to show that at high levels it's almost the same anyway... I think? Just putting it out there. That's pretty neat.
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Mellybelly

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2018, 05:33:44 AM »
As stated, I have two ECL races. A tiefling(+2) and a zenythri(+3). The RP generated by these characters has been amazing, I would trade that away. However, it's only my tiefling that has every gotten anywhere, and that was back when the Drain had the Sewer dweller faction, because there were plenty of freaks like her that I was able to grind through the painful XP drag. But, given she's a caster, she's never going to get Any real use of 9th level spells. If she was pure sorc, she'd get a single 9th level spell at level 18.


My zenythri, on the other hand, with it's higher ECL, hasn't even made it to level 10 yet and I've had it since 2011. I've managed to gear it to an absurd point, to where it's AC is extremely high. But, as most lower level monks complain, it can't hit much. And given it's whopping 70 HP, going to level 10 places as a front line fighter is like nails on a chalkboard. For that matter, a monk's ultimate goal is that level 20 outsider transformation.

I prefer playing the freaks and outcast PCs. I enjoy the challenging RP behind it. But the mechanical disadvantages behind it are far less enjoyable. I'd gladly trade off that extra feat and skillpoint to be able to have the chance to cap out at 20, and to be able to keep up in levels with other characters.

aprogressivist

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2018, 07:21:18 AM »
It would be great to see ECL races like Aasimar, Tieflings, and Zenythri fixed and have their ECL lowered, but asking for them to be able to make it to level 20 is turning ECL races into a powergamer's invitation. An Aasimar level 20 Paladin would have a nice edge over a Human level 20, but when you start thinking about races like Tanarukk being level 20  it gets silly.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #30 on: July 10, 2018, 07:40:24 AM »
It would be great to see ECL races like Aasimar, Tieflings, and Zenythri fixed and have their ECL lowered, but asking for them to be able to make it to level 20 is turning ECL races into a powergamer's invitation. An Aasimar level 20 Paladin would have a nice edge over a Human level 20, but when you start thinking about races like Tanarukk being level 20  it gets silly.

Enchanted gear lets a PC go "farther" than level 20, and I've read that was, in fact, the premise behind it: giving players who want to a means of extending the PC's power arc. A 20th level Paladin with enchanted gear has a nice edge over a 20th level paladin without enchanted gear, but at the cost of significant XP and taking a while longer to get there.

Likewise, a Prestige Classs PC such as RDD might have more power at 20th level than a non-prestige class PC. This is considered a reward for the RP that the PRC PC presumably brought to the server and is regulated by having to apply for the PRC.

I don't think it's silly to think of those two same premises in terms of ECL races.

It appears a Tanarukk has an ECL of 3. Assuming for the sake of argument a Tanarukk would then have a 30 percent XP penalty, the player of the Tanarukk would have to spend almost 1.5 the amount of time getting to the same enchanted/XP level as her non-ECL counterpart. If a typical PC gets to 20th level after say two years, then the Tanarukk gets there after almost three years. When the non-ECL hits 20th level, the Tanarukk would still be chugging along at 16th.

That likewise means the non-ECL player can be starting another PC well before the the ECL player and getting ahead on that one too.

I'm not too worried that such dedication to a single character concept should be feared and discouraged, especially when the player will have to pass an application process.

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Mellybelly

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2018, 07:57:50 AM »
It would be great to see ECL races like Aasimar, Tieflings, and Zenythri fixed and have their ECL lowered, but asking for them to be able to make it to level 20 is turning ECL races into a powergamer's invitation. An Aasimar level 20 Paladin would have a nice edge over a Human level 20, but when you start thinking about races like Tanarukk being level 20  it gets silly.

A powergamer's invitation? Sure, when they remove the application process, maybe. But as it is only people that have proven themselves to have an application approved are allowed to play these classes. I think you're worried entirely too much about the 'but there's a teeny tiny chance this could happen' instead of what is more likely to happen.

aprogressivist

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2018, 08:04:58 AM »
Enchanted fear is available to everyone willing to put in the time and effort; there are no post-creation restrictions beyond simply being high enough level. Application races are supposed to be exceptional.

Also it's not like enchanted gear is without controversy. The power of this gear invited abuse and cheating.

If you don't care that making ECL races a powergamer's choice will make them more common, more open to being abused for simple power over theme, and less niche, by all means, pursue the consequences of your beliefs. But be careful what you wish for.
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aprogressivist

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2018, 08:17:41 AM »
It would be great to see ECL races like Aasimar, Tieflings, and Zenythri fixed and have their ECL lowered, but asking for them to be able to make it to level 20 is turning ECL races into a powergamer's invitation. An Aasimar level 20 Paladin would have a nice edge over a Human level 20, but when you start thinking about races like Tanarukk being level 20  it gets silly.

A powergamer's invitation? Sure, when they remove the application process, maybe. But as it is only people that have proven themselves to have an application approved are allowed to play these classes. I think you're worried entirely too much about the 'but there's a teeny tiny chance this could happen' instead of what is more likely to happen.

See, you may have experience playing ECL races, but I have experience on the CC, witnessing how people work to abuse systems. You think it's a "tiny" chance, I think it's a given that if ECL races are turned into a long term power-up, that power will motivate some people more than the races' themes and RP. More people will app for these,  adding to the CC bureaucracy, and the CC doesn't have a crystal ball to anticipate who the problem players will be.

All this, for what? So some players can app to play effectively Epic level characters?
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Arawn

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2018, 08:42:50 AM »
It's not productive to debate the merits of removing ECL, as we are very unlikely to ever do that. Specific suggestions for adjusting the ECL of particular templates would be much more useful, if you see a particular issue or flaw. We have in the past and probably will in the future revised specific templates here and there.
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Mereyn

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2018, 10:27:47 AM »
To be blunt, the only change that I'd care for is to, if possible, alter the ECL experience gain for roleplay experience so that they
count as the specific class level they're at and not their ECL. Given the recent changes to the roleplay experience system,
it should "reimburse" some of the experience lost from not being as effective mechanically as other people of your demanded level,
as well as encouraging what ECL characters -- any character made on this server at all -- are made for. Roleplaying.

Iridni Ren

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2018, 10:49:33 AM »
To be blunt, the only change that I'd care for is to, if possible, alter the ECL experience gain for roleplay experience so that they
count as the specific class level they're at and not their ECL. Given the recent changes to the roleplay experience system,
it should "reimburse" some of the experience lost from not being as effective mechanically as other people of your demanded level,
as well as encouraging what ECL characters -- any character made on this server at all -- are made for. Roleplaying.

Isn't RP XP the same regardless of level anyway--other than the now-worsened penalty for being a high level in a low-level zone? That is, each "Progression by RP" tick represents the same amount numerically, whether you're second or 10th?

If all you're advocating is that the ECL get to count as a low level and therefore hang out in low level areas longer and still receive RP XP, then that's a very minimal change indeed. It wouldn't improve the lot of the very lowest level ECLs at all, and that's where the ECL penalty hurts the worst.

Most players say ECLs are terrible at the beginning, not as bad in the middle, and then bad again when you can't reach the highest levels of your class. This tweak would help the part that least needs it.

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Insignia

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2018, 06:34:17 PM »
I have no interest in these races being able to achieve level 20, in fact, I'd be against it, even with the extraordinary amount of time it would take to do so. It would seem ripe for abuse by people who have way too much time on their hands to sink into this game. What I am after, and what I created this topic for, are exactly what this section of the forum is for: Gameplay balance.

This is only my second main character that I have played on the server, and my first ECL race, so I can only attest to my particular character, but the 2 level decrease from my view seems entirely unbalanced -- especially for a race that requires an application. Here is the breakdown in my eyes from where my character currently stands:

Level 13 Aasimar paladin:
Has 2 points more charisma. (Extra turn undead cast, +1 to all saves, +1 damage and AC when using divine might/shield, etc.)
No need to go beyond 14 wisdom as paladins stats are already stretched thin, so both races would have the same.
Has Racial abilities: 5 damage resist for Acid, cold and electrical, Dark vision, ability to cast light, +2 spot & listen
Can list in my char description that his hair glows and his eyes are piercing

Level 15 Human paladin:
+2 AB
+26 HP
Access to strongest paladin spells (Sacred Heaven, Holy Sword, etc.)
1 extra feat
+6 skill points
+1 all saves (But from level instead of the charisma bonus)

This problem become even worse at level 14 (16 human) When the human would have access to their fourth attack, and an extra stat point, and a wider selection of better spells while the Aasimar would gain by comparison, relatively nothing.

I ask is this truly balanced at a place in the game when the character is going to be going months in between levels? Is the Aasimar truly able to keep up and contribute to a party as meaningfully as the human would be able to do?

Again, I am not arguing for Aasimar to be superior to Human, I am arguing for a better balance between ECL races and standard races. ECL 2 seems way too extreme and I really don't think making Tieflings and Aasimars ECL 1 would make them overpowered. I think it would be far more balanced than it currently is, and if dev's and community council members are truly worried about that being too OP, they have the ability to control it through a more strict application process, as is the case with the Hallowed Witch, a PRC which is -entirely- OP, but causes no issue because of how difficult an application it would require.

I just hate the feeling of having put so much work into this character and feeling less useful than he should be at this point. I can't help but think of how much more effective I would be if I would have just chose human, but I wanted something different and flavorful in RP, which is what the server is all about, however by this point it is starting to feel like a punishment for my choice as I need to spend months trudging through an underpowered character just to get to where a human would be right now.

This is just my two cents anyways, sorry if it came off like a rant, but it is understandably frustrating considering all the time we put into our characters and the attachment that grows from playing them for months on end when they end up underwhelming.

Iridni Ren

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2018, 07:00:03 PM »
I have no interest in these races being able to achieve level 20, in fact, I'd be against it, even with the extraordinary amount of time it would take to do so. It would seem ripe for abuse by people who have way too much time on their hands to sink into this game. What I am after, and what I created this topic for, are exactly what this section of the forum is for: Gameplay balance.

Well, if the ECL is reduced by 1, the races can achieve level 19, so I can't see your strong objection to the single additional level. Perhaps it's because what you're asking for is substantively more of a shift in gameplay balance than what I've proposed. From 3 to 19, the ECLs would be better off with what you want--that is, they'd achieve all those levels more quickly. In return, they never achieve 20 at all. Since few PCs achieve 20 anyway and only a small fraction of almost every PC's arc is spent at 20, you're giving away a little in return for a lot :).

I also don't understand the disparagement of those who "have way too much time on their hands to sink into this game," given your conclusion:

Quote
This is just my two cents anyways, sorry if it came off like a rant, but it is understandably frustrating considering all the time we put into our characters and the attachment that grows from playing them for months on end when they end up underwhelming.

On the one hand you say putting a lot of time into a PC opens up the chance for "abuse"; on the other, you say it's frustrating to play so much and receive underwhelming results for your devotion.

People who choose to devote a lot of time to the game are more likely to receive greater rewards from it, and rightly so IMO, whether that's piling up gold, items, or other measures of power. Why begrudge them their payoff?

Frankly, I'd be fine with reducing the ECL from 2 to 1 on both because it would certainly make them more enjoyable to play. But I think in terms of gameplay balance it's a much bigger ask than my proposal. I know it would make me happier from self-interest as well!
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 07:06:47 PM by Iridni Ren »

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aprogressivist

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2018, 07:18:40 PM »
I think there's broad consensus, from what the devs in this thread have said, that an ECL 1 Aasimar without the extra Feat and Skills would be ideal (ditto Tiefling, etc); but that the main obstacles to this are technical.  Certainly I hope we can implement the ECL 1 Aasimar at some point in the future, and if anyone finds any resources that make adding custom races to NWN EE easier, that would bring it closer to reality.
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Insignia

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2018, 08:53:48 PM »
I guess to summarize my point, and put it as simply as I possibly can, it would be this:

An ECL 1 Aasimar or Tiefling would be more balanced than what we currently have, even with the one extra feat and skill point. Does it tip the scales in favor of those races? Quite possibly, in my eyes ECL 2 is clearly and obviously underpowered, where as ECL 1 may end up being a slight advantage, but that's the whole point of the application process. It allows regulation of these races, where as having the scales tipped in favor of a race that anyone can play makes no sense.

In case of a balance issue between two races, the edge should be given to the one which is harder to access, in this case meaning the one that requires extra steps and approval to play.

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2018, 09:48:22 PM »
I think there's broad consensus, from what the devs in this thread have said, that an ECL 1 Aasimar without the extra Feat and Skills would be ideal (ditto Tiefling, etc); but that the main obstacles to this are technical.  Certainly I hope we can implement the ECL 1 Aasimar at some point in the future, and if anyone finds any resources that make adding custom races to NWN EE easier, that would bring it closer to reality.

Adding races is fairly easy but there are some issues with it (mainly things like Favored Enemy and Race restrictions on items) and it'd require rewriting/updating many systems. We're not there yet but it's not impossible. I had considered adding Half Vistani as a new race this hak update but ran into a few hurdles so decided to scrap it for now.

That being said, revising some ECL is not out of question but we'd have to review them dev-side. We don't want an influx in outcast races either; they are supposed to be rare and the Council can't artificially deny well-written and well thought applications either.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2018, 10:22:35 PM by EO »

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2018, 11:20:01 PM »
I personally share MAB's opinion, I'd rather have extra Feat and Skill, than having the possibility to have on more level that I know for sure I will probably never reach because only a minority of people ever reach that level. I also do not mind at all that might take more time to level up as I don't tend to bother about my level. For the records, the highest level I've ever been in almost 4 years here is 13 and that's only one character, the others haven't gone past 11.

That's my own personal opinion on the matter.

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Insignia

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2018, 02:16:20 AM »
I personally share MAB's opinion, I'd rather have extra Feat and Skill, than having the possibility to have on more level that I know for sure I will probably never reach because only a minority of people ever reach that level. I also do not mind at all that might take more time to level up as I don't tend to bother about my level. For the records, the highest level I've ever been in almost 4 years here is 13 and that's only one character, the others haven't gone past 11.

That's my own personal opinion on the matter.

That argument doesn't make much sense to me, especially for someone who doesn't venture into the high levels. It's not a level that you aren't going to achieve later, it's a level that you do not have /right now/. Look at this this way:

Suppose you have a level 6 wizard with ECL 2: This character has 4 feats, and 30 skill points (Plus int mod)

Now, your human counterpart would be level 8 and have: 6 feats, and 40 skill points (Plus int mod)
Not to mention a higher spell circle, more spells, more hit points, better saves, higher AB.

Both of these characters have the same amount of experience, but the non-ECL class ends up with more feats and skill points due to the higher level. So to say you would trade the levels for skill points and a feat when you'd end up with more skill points and feats as the non ECL race is a little difficult to follow. If the ECL were 1, you would receive a feat for being level 7 instead of 6, and you'd also receive 4 skill points (Now excluding the one for being human), not to mention you'd have the same spell circle available to you as your human counterpart now. Essentially in a situation like this, you are saying that you would trade 1 level for 2 skill points.

ECL 2 level 6 wizard: 4 feats, 30 skill points
ECL 1 level 7 with the skill and feat bonus removed wizard: 4 feats, 28 skill points


Unfortunately I think this thread is getting way off topic from what I originally wished to speak about, which was making the ECL races more balanced and better able to compete with the non ECL races. We are arguing about points that aren't really adding anything constructive to what I see as a problem in the balance of playable races. Clearly some people see it is a big problem, and others don't. I've been looking around on other servers to see how they deal with the tieflings and aasimars getting that extra feat and skill point, and it seems like they don't. They just leave it as ECL 1 regardless, and I truly believe it is because ECL 2 is just too stiff a penalty for the bonuses you receive.

At the end of it that is really all I want to put forth and that is the suggestion I would offer as a fix. We all obviously would love to have it done exactly as it is by the book, but when it comes down to it for Aasimars and Tieflings, what makes more sense? Having a race that is very clearly weaker than they should be? Or having a race that is marginally stronger than they should be. I think it is the latter is a closer representation. After all, these are beings who are almost entirely human, just with either angelic or demonic blood somewhere in their bloodline.

I understand there is often a lot of work involved to change these things, and partially why I think the easiest solution for both balance and workload is simply making the ECL 1 for those races.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 02:18:25 AM by Insignia »

MAB77

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2018, 07:45:06 AM »
In your analysis you always compare yourself to a character 2 levels higher. That is an error. Compare at the same level.

My level 14 Tiefling druid IS STRONGER than a level 14 human druid. I got extra abilities from the start, beyond just the extra feat and skills of humans. I started more powerful, in exchange of slower XP gains and 2 levels I can,t reach in the end. But that is the trade-off I willingly accepted to start with a special character. I find this balance more than fair. My character is still a most positive addition to any group he is part of. Still a great buffer with little tricks of his own. I can go almost anywhere. I do not need to compare myself to another character 2 levels higher than me. I do not feel robbed of anything.

The question to answer is not even about comparing ECL races to non ECL races, but simply do these extra abilities received are worth the ECL value assigned. For tieflings and assimars, hell yeah.
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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2018, 09:14:58 AM »
How is that an error? Isn't that the point of effective character level? A level 14 tiefling druid has an effective character level of 16, not 14. Hit die plus level adjustment. Of course compared to the same class level of human they'd be stronger, but to make that comparison throws the idea of ECL out the window.

Iridni Ren

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2018, 09:23:52 AM »
Insignia has the right of it on this. Of course the comparison should be with a PC two levels higher because that's how an ECL2 is treated by the system and how one must assess whether the penalty is fair.

No one has argued that an ECL is weaker than the non-ECL of a comparable level. It's whether the current penalty is too severe or not, and to judge that one must look at the effective character level--i.e., is the ECL truly as effective as the name would indicate.

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MAB77

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2018, 10:03:18 AM »
ECL 2 never changes the fact that from level 2 to 18 you will always be more powerful than a human of the same class and level. Never. When you speak of balance you must factor that.

Given that very few chars ever reached 19 or 20. It still means you will on average be the more powerful character at equal level. The price to pay is not to have access to level 19 or 20.

At level 2 I started with
The human extra feat
An energy resistance feat
Extra skill points (more than multiple skill focus feat combined)
Even more bonus points to a stealth feat
A spell like ability.

More than worth the 2 levels sacrificed. You speak of balance, do it on the whole range not only the last 2 levels.
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MAB

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bestbardna

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2018, 01:21:09 PM »
Although a level 2 character with an ECL of 4 is supposed to be stronger than a level 2 character, they do not match up to a level 4 character by any stretch of the imagination. But let's pretend for a moment, that they do.

Even on the SRD, they point out the fact that level adjustments are more of a burden then they're worth, especially at higher levels.

From the SRD:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

When a character with a level adjustment advances in experience, the level adjustment he started with becomes more and more of a burden.Eventually, the benefits of the creature type may come to be eclipsed by those of his class features, and the player may regret his choice of race. Under this variant system, the character can pay an XP cost at certain intervals to decrease the burden of his level adjustment.

Once the total of a character's class levels (not including any Hit Dice from his creature type or his level adjustment) reaches three times his level adjustment, his level adjustment is eligible to be decreased by 1.


Now I know that programming in LA Buyoff is likely difficult if not impossible. But let's see what "XP Value" is placed on these level adjustments:

The character must reach a level equal to 3x his current Level Adjustment
Starting
Level
Adjustment    Number of Class Levels Necessary
                        for Level Adjustment Reduction
                        (Not Including Racial Hit Dice)
1                    3
2                    6,9
3                    9, 15, 18
4                    12
5                    15
6                    18

After reaching the listed levels, the character can pay XP to reduce his Level adjustment. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL -1) × 1,000

So according to this:

LA+1 is worth 3000 xp (Because it can be bought off at level 3, ECL 4)
LA +2 is worth 16000xp (requiring buyoffs at level 6 (ECL8) and level 9 (ECL 10)
LA +3 is worth 45000xp (Requiring buyoffs at level 9 (ECL 12), Level 15 (ECL 17) and Level 18 (ECL 19)

The XP Penalty idea is a good one. It's much more severe than the normal Level Adjustment buyoff rules, but accomplishes much the same goal.
LA +1 at a 10% penalty is worth 19,000 xp By level 20
LA +2 at a 20% penalty is worth 38,000 xp By Level 20
LA +3 at a 30% penalty is worth 57,000 xp By Level 20

These are not small XP amounts. Any player who pushes through these penalties and reaches higher levels should be rewarded, because their playthrough was more difficult. Good game design should reward completing difficult tasks. Even if we increased the penalties, I'm sure players would be more than happy to pay them.



TL;DR, I support implementing an XP penalty system instead of a level adjustment system, because Level adjustment in 3e and 3.5 is hamfisted and broken (and not in the good way).

Insignia

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Re: ECL 2 on Aasimar and Tiefling
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2018, 05:57:10 PM »
MAB I think you might really be missing what ECL entails. Of course an ECL race at the same class level as a non ECL race is going to be more powerful, no one is arguing that. Two new characters that start, one with ECL 2 and one as human, sure, the ECL character has the edge, but you know how long that lasts? Less than a level. We are talking about effective character level, not class level. The level 2 character with an ECL 2 race must be comparable to a level 4 human in this case.

The exp it takes for the ECL char to reach level 3 is the same as the human to reach level 5, so that extra feat, those extra skill points that you mention getting on character creation, are all less than what the level 5 human would receive. The level 5 human will have more feats, more skill points, more hit points, more AB, better access to spells, better saves because both the Human and the ECL 2 character have an effective character level of 5. For all intents and purposes, this is when they are supposed to be balanced, when the human is 2 levels higher, not when they are at the same class level.

Although a level 2 character with an ECL of 4 is supposed to be stronger than a level 2 character, they do not match up to a level 4 character by any stretch of the imagination. But let's pretend for a moment, that they do.

Even on the SRD, they point out the fact that level adjustments are more of a burden then they're worth, especially at higher levels.

From the SRD:  http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

When a character with a level adjustment advances in experience, the level adjustment he started with becomes more and more of a burden.Eventually, the benefits of the creature type may come to be eclipsed by those of his class features, and the player may regret his choice of race. Under this variant system, the character can pay an XP cost at certain intervals to decrease the burden of his level adjustment.
 

As for Bestbardna, I think that is a really cool suggestion that you have made, and it definitely makes me think it could be something that wouldn't require as much work as what it initially looks like. I'm not sure how the programming works on this server, but to use Tiefling as an example, one could create 3 races on the server. Tiefling (ECL 2), Tiefling (ECL 1), and Tiefling with no ECL. A DM could then effectively take your experience and change your race for the buyoff, could they not?

Of course, I think the EXP costs would have to be much higher... and I agree that even if they were, people would stay pay them... I certainly would. Great suggestion, Bestbardna!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 05:59:19 PM by Insignia »