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Author Topic: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread  (Read 8099 times)

APorg

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2019, 04:54:23 PM »
Thirded. This whole topic is a demonstration of power-creep.
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Pav

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2019, 04:55:14 PM »
Remove Shrouded Dance.

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2019, 05:08:21 PM »
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature. 

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2019, 05:34:51 PM »
Some servers make use of Shadowdancer only shortcuts between dark areas. Saves travel time, doesn't give any OP/abusive abilities.

Hypatia

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2019, 05:56:33 PM »
I think I have to concur, while the Shrouded Dance feat is probably balanced, it steals the best thing a shadow dancer can get. People have to put a lot of thought and RP to get HiPs, and it should be unique and special to them.

When feats are added that steal all the thunder from other classes, its terrible for party dynamics. D&D works best when every class has something about it that sets it apart from all others so that you need to form groups and rely on other people for what you lack.  In NWN2 they added some ridiculous feat for bards that made them a better healer than a dedicated healer; an aura that casts mass heal & harm.. every round for a long time, and bards could do it like 20+ time per day. Instantly makes healers obsolete and useless. Thus, I quite playing NWN2. So I can see why giving any stealthy character the ability that ONLY a shadow dancer should be able have would ruffle feathers big time for the people who put in the RP and application to have this.

I think there would be more reasonable justification for this feat if the "perform" prereq was jacked waaaay the hell up. This seems like a pretty advanced dance move. You could literally get 5 ranks at level 1, and that seems more on par with someone who can do the centipede without getting hurt and can do the macarena without blundering into their neighbor when everyone shuffles to the left... Michael Jackson wasn't pulling off the moon-walk at no level 1 with 5 ranks in perform. No way... he had to take his perform skill way up there before he was gliding backwards across the stage like that. I'd say at least 10 ranks for the moonwalk. To vanish entirely while doing an action that actually draws MORE attention to you such as dancing around like a crazy-person in the middle of a fight?!? 15 ranks MINIMUM. Also, if you need like 15 ranks in perform, than you'd have a VALID Rp justification for being able to pull off this kind of move and the feat wouldn't be something you grab without planning, like a pack of gum at the grocery store check out. Its something that would require a serious investment in perform and stealth and no one could be able to give you crap for a once-a-day HiPs because of that.

So in short.. the perform requirment needs to be much higher in order to justify why someone can bust out moves so amazing, that you actually loose sight of them.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:11:45 PM by Hypatia »

PlatointheCave

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 06:35:17 PM »
I have changed my mind. Shrouded Dance encourages rogues to drop their stealth advantage to roleplay without having to feel like they've made themselves very vulnerable to do it. The value in allowing more antagonistic rogues to engage in scenes that'd otherwise be too risky outweighs the hit to SD mystique.

They still get to zip in and out of the shadows actively in battle and, frankly, stealthier classes needed a buff.

Pav

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 06:38:50 PM »
I have changed my mind. Shrouded Dance encourages rogues to drop their stealth advantage to roleplay without having to feel like they've made themselves very vulnerable to do it. The value in allowing more antagonistic rogues to engage in scenes that'd otherwise be too risky outweighs the hit to SD mystique.

They still get to zip in and out of the shadows actively in battle and, frankly, stealthier classes needed a buff.

carry a bottled black instead of having a one-button win like the rest of us boomers used to do
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:45:28 PM by Pav »

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 06:40:34 PM »
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature.

that would be neat and fitting for a shadow dancer. I wonder how the Shadow Jump would be implemented though.


Pav

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2019, 06:42:55 PM »
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature.

that would be neat and fitting for a shadow dancer. I wonder how the Shadow Jump would be implemented though.

Been done by non-Sinfar coded servers, no reason it can't be done here.

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2019, 06:43:15 PM »
I think it is fine to have a variety of stealth characters that can do very similar things, just like it is fine that both Barbarians and fighters - if we look under the bottom of the line - are just good at making enemies dead with mundane tools. They can coexist and I agree with PlatointheCave's point that Shrouded Dance helped add to server atmosphere by empowering antagonists to play more prominent roles, thus letting others react more prominently as well.

I believe shadow dancers themselves should gain their flair and prestige from something more than the stealth mechanics. As I take it, a very big deal about them is that they are mystical and not just good at hiding, so this should be reflected in the game mechanics in a way that is a little more... flashy than HipS.

I support the people that suggested to give them more abilities like darkness casts and other trickster tools.
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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2019, 06:45:32 PM »
I agree with PlatointheCave's point that Shrouded Dance helped add to server atmosphere by empowering antagonists to play more prominent roles, thus letting others react more prominently as well.

carry a bottled black instead of having a one-button win like the rest of us boomers used to do

/s

To harp on some points I mentioned elsewhere before, and to post them publicly:

  • Shrouded Dance is currently the Rogue equivalent of G-Sanc. Like G-Sanc, it has only one or two counterplays and is essentially a one-button win / escape, and it is being abused.
  • Shrouded Dance takes away from the mystique of a Shadowdancer by making the act of disappearing into stealth something commonplace.
  • People very often forget that alternatives exist to one-button wins, in methods of escape. Valid alternatives that have some thought into them are usually preferable, to ones that are simply better without par, in terms of balance and flavor for encounters. It gets old seeing someone get out of a sticky situation without making a small sacrifice or without playing smart.
  • The counter-argument that HiPS does the same thing is null and void when we look at the sacrifices made between them. 5 ending levels of an otherwise mechanically impotent class, less skillpoints, less total BAB, less damage (via loss of sneak attacks) is a fair price to pay in comparison to 5 spent skillpoints and a feat.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 07:19:25 PM by Pav »

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2019, 08:43:45 PM »
Unless you're pure ranger and get HiPS on top of 17 levels of ranger awesome. HiPS available outside of Shadowdancer is pretty meh.

There was a thread before on this where I was an advocate of shadowdancers getting 1/day Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 ability.

I hate stealth in general so I speak from bias and non-logical opinion when I say stealth needs a hard counter, there's not enough Spot short of an elven/halfling zen archery druid who brews insight/clairaudience/clairvoyance/true seeing, using Cat's Vision + Hawkvision & acquiring all Spot items they can use (can't use the eyes of eagle helmet because bronze) and prebuffing everywhere and at any time before seeing someone and so could be accused of meta-gaming when they do drink potions against someone they can't otherwise 'see'.

Even then that's not enough for some stealth builds & gear combinations. Simply because 50point skill cap + modifiers + feats + weather penalties + additional modifiers from distance, directional & objects in between (though at least the last 3 are on the actual positioning skill of the stealthed to acquire those.)

This all detracts from Shadowdancer feedback. Playing as a Shadowdancer on another server, the only feedback I can give is HiPS overshadows many other feats anyone could put acquire elsewhere. It's pretty damn awesome... But it's also why it needs a hard counter like true seeing actually working like true seeing, even if it was only possible through a Shapechange lvl 9 spell into a dragon that cant fit through narrow corridors and all Barovians would run screaming from.

Pav

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2019, 08:49:04 PM »
There was a thread before on this where I was an advocate of shadowdancers getting 1/day Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 ability.

I hate stealth in general so I speak from bias and non-logical opinion when I say stealth needs a hard counter, there's not enough Spot short of an elven/halfling zen archery druid who brews insight/clairaudience/clairvoyance/true seeing, using Cat's Vision + Hawkvision & acquiring all Spot items they can use (can't use the eyes of eagle helmet because bronze) and prebuffing everywhere and at any time before seeing someone and so could be accused of meta-gaming when they do drink potions against someone they can't otherwise 'see'.

Even then that's not enough for some stealth builds & gear combinations. Simply because 50point skill cap + modifiers + feats + weather penalties + additional modifiers from distance, directional & objects in between (though at least the last 3 are on the actual positioning skill of the stealthed to acquire those.)

This all detracts from Shadowdancer feedback. Playing as a Shadowdancer on another server, the only feedback I can give is HiPS overshadows many other feats anyone could put acquire elsewhere. It's pretty damn awesome... But it's also why it needs a hard counter like true seeing actually working like true seeing, even if it was only possible through a Shapechange lvl 9 spell into a dragon that cant fit through narrow corridors and all Barovians would run screaming from.

Let me answer your points as they go.

  • This is the very same thread, and I would agree with that addition and support it if it was made, though I'd prefer to see other things that fit the class better.
  • Inaccurate. Fully geared and fully buffed detection beats out fully geared and fully buffed stealth at similar level ranges.
  • Shadowdancers on most other servers have a slew of other unique abilities that HiPS definitely does not overshadow because detecting them is relatively easy. Countering it is the same counter as to stealth - don't neglect your detection skill. Also, dragonshape was nerfed here to not afford you actual true seeing.

qwertyuioppp

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 08:33:10 PM »
I've split off the general stealth discussion to another thread. Please keep this thread contained more specifically to the intended discussion on Shadowdancers.

Kaninchen

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2019, 07:59:53 PM »
Reading through this thread, there were some good points made.  As someone with a shadowdancer, I have some feedback based on my experience in obtaining the PrC, and playing it for a few months now.

I agree with the original post about Dodge and Mobility.  I realize not ever class who goes for Shadowdancer will be dex based, and so they may not have tumble ranks, but both of these feats focus on movement, which is a flavor fail, in my opinion. I would suggest to see one of them replaced with

Shadow Affinity
Spoiler: show
 The character has a natural affinity with the creatures of shadow. He summons outsiders from the Plane of Shadow one category higher than his level would normally allow. Additionally, the character gains a +1 bonus on saving throws versus negative energy.


It makes sense to me from a progression point. My PC went though months of figuring out stuff about shadows, and learning about the existence of the shadow plane, before *finally* finding a mentor to confirm, and finish my teaching.  To me, this process should lead towards an affinity for the shadow plane. This would also help the actual shadow itself. I was very sad to hit level 3 in the class, and find the shadow is incredibly underwhelming. I did some other reading, and found they get stronger for every 3rd level in the class taken. I also found a thread mentioning how a destroyed, or unsummoned, shadow can result in an exp loss if you fail a save. Seems like a steep malus, for such a "meh" summon. If this was changed, then my apologies for not being able to find a post stating otherwise.

Source: https://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=43828.msg565953#msg565953

 My other bit of feedback stems from the description of the class on the PrC thread.  "Misconceptions and clarifications: Being a Shadowdancer has nothing to do with being a rogue," is a direct line. The idea that a SD is not a rogue, is actually mentioned twice in the post. If this is the case, why then is there such a similar feat progression between the two classes?  I speak of how both get the Evasion, and Uncanny Dodge feats, and the stronger ranks as the classes gain levels.  To me, it is inconsistent to have it mentioned twice on the PrC application page that a SD isn't a rogue, yet have such a similar set of feats gained at level. I can only think the shadowdancer has the rogue feats because not every class going for the PrC will be a rogue. I'll admit, I'm too new to the game to offer any decent alternatives, but just a feedback post after all :-D

I apologize if reviving old threads is a bit of a taboo, but seemed silly to start an entirely new one. Thanks for taking the time to read, and have a good holiday season :-D

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Rogue
https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Shadowdancer

e: fixed the spoiler, and added links to make comparing the feat progression of the two classes easier.


« Last Edit: December 23, 2019, 08:03:25 PM by Kaninchen »

PlatointheCave

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2019, 09:07:12 AM »
Re: swapping feat requirements I have no thoughts except to note that the existing requirements exist to reflect the dance aspect.

Re: progression of feats. The emphasis on not being a rogue is to highlight that it is a supernatural practice that isn't a natural extension of being good at hiding. It does not mean that Shadow Dancers don't develop similar talents. I'm firmly against deviating from the source books in this regard.

Shadow Dancers are fine where they're at. I play one and I think the roleplay is well supported by the class features. It would be neat to see Shadow Jump implemented but I suspect even with technical capability, it would introduce a host of issues if SDs could jump into areas that are otherwise inaccessible.


Hathor

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2020, 02:55:53 PM »
Apologies for the necro (I figure someone necro'd this last time and no one seemed to mind) but I want to give my two cents:

- Overall despite the class being heavily front-loaded, the server's multiclassing rules for PrCs mean that front-loading isn't much of an issue in terms of overall power.
- However, in terms of flavor and fun, taking shadowdancer levels is pretty boring and doesn't provide much to look forward to (for a few reasons detailed below). This isn't necessarily a problem so long as the player takes it into their own hands to RP out and imagine the character's path.
- HiPs is extremely good, everyone knows this, it's why the class is desired. As noted elsewhere in this thread however, it's pretty lackluster in terms of actually being able to hide from other players. RP is sort of the point of this server, right? I understand that a flat bonus to stealth for Shadowdancers is probably not desired (though  I personally feel it is warranted given the RP and build investment, as well as extreme specialization), so what about using HiPs providing a temporary bonus to stealth? HiPs should, in my opinion, be at least for a few seconds guaranteed stealth. That's literally the idea of it. You're not sneaking real good, you're dancing with the actual shadow realm to escape or tease, and having it not even work because you're around high levels is a real RP flop. This would also solve the complaints in this thread of Shrouded Dance power creep. I don't have an issue with Shrouded Dance, but any stealther is going to want it as a generally acceptable alternative to again, literally using shadow magic. HiPs should have something added to it to make it more unique.
- Shadow Daze is a bit of a waste. With an extremely low DC (12?) it seems at best a bullying tool versus low levels or maybe small animals. Replacing Shadow Daze with either the skill bonuses listed above (skill bonuses to perform would be pretty nice too...just saying!) or perhaps a free Urban Stealth would be more interesting. Alternatively, a free Darkness one-per-day isn't too much to ask?

Just figured I'd add my two cents!

Kaninchen

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2020, 03:28:14 PM »
Not much of a shrouded dance power creep after the latest change to the pre-requisite feats for it, imo. We don't get access to the numbers, but I imagine it had a dramatic drop in popularity, as it's no longer "free."  So rather than make HiPS stronger, the devs took the route of making Shrouded Dance a choice/investment.

I don't personally think any change to HiPS is warranted. It does the job it is supposed to do, but I understand your point, and think your reasoning for the flavor with the shadow realm is on point.

I agree with you about shadow daze. It's an extremely "meh" ability (spell?).  A lot of the mechanical growth for the class is built into Shadow Evade getting stronger the deeper you go into the class, and also the summons getting stronger. I've not yet gotten to the point in the class to notice how good, or underwhelming they are. The information on them itself took a lot of digging by itself. Might suggest including the progression of them on the potm wiki, or in the tool tip?


Hathor

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2020, 03:42:41 PM »
Not much of a shrouded dance power creep after the latest change to the pre-requisite feats for it, imo. We don't get access to the numbers, but I imagine it had a dramatic drop in popularity, as it's no longer "free."  So rather than make HiPS stronger, the devs took the route of making Shrouded Dance a choice/investment.

I don't personally think any change to HiPS is warranted. It does the job it is supposed to do, but I understand your point, and think your reasoning for the flavor with the shadow realm is on point.

I agree with you about shadow daze. It's an extremely "meh" ability (spell?).  A lot of the mechanical growth for the class is built into Shadow Evade getting stronger the deeper you go into the class, and also the summons getting stronger. I've not yet gotten to the point in the class to notice how good, or underwhelming they are. The information on them itself took a lot of digging by itself. Might suggest including the progression of them on the potm wiki, or in the tool tip?

Yeah, to clarify, I don't think there's an issue with Shrouded Dance. But if anyone does, perhaps my suggestion (which is proposed to solve other issues) would solve that as well.

Shadow Evade seems like one of the more fun and flavorful aspects of the class, I agree!

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2020, 03:52:10 PM »
Apologies for the necro (I figure someone necro'd this last time and no one seemed to mind) but I want to give my two cents:

- Overall despite the class being heavily front-loaded, the server's multiclassing rules for PrCs mean that front-loading isn't much of an issue in terms of overall power.
- However, in terms of flavor and fun, taking shadowdancer levels is pretty boring and doesn't provide much to look forward to (for a few reasons detailed below). This isn't necessarily a problem so long as the player takes it into their own hands to RP out and imagine the character's path.
- HiPs is extremely good, everyone knows this, it's why the class is desired. As noted elsewhere in this thread however, it's pretty lackluster in terms of actually being able to hide from other players. RP is sort of the point of this server, right? I understand that a flat bonus to stealth for Shadowdancers is probably not desired (though  I personally feel it is warranted given the RP and build investment, as well as extreme specialization), so what about using HiPs providing a temporary bonus to stealth? HiPs should, in my opinion, be at least for a few seconds guaranteed stealth. That's literally the idea of it. You're not sneaking real good, you're dancing with the actual shadow realm to escape or tease, and having it not even work because you're around high levels is a real RP flop. This would also solve the complaints in this thread of Shrouded Dance power creep. I don't have an issue with Shrouded Dance, but any stealther is going to want it as a generally acceptable alternative to again, literally using shadow magic. HiPs should have something added to it to make it more unique.
- Shadow Daze is a bit of a waste. With an extremely low DC (12?) it seems at best a bullying tool versus low levels or maybe small animals. Replacing Shadow Daze with either the skill bonuses listed above (skill bonuses to perform would be pretty nice too...just saying!) or perhaps a free Urban Stealth would be more interesting. Alternatively, a free Darkness one-per-day isn't too much to ask?

Just figured I'd add my two cents!

I agree with pretty much everything in this post in theory, though maybe not specifically in terms of how to fix HiPS.  I wish the class overall was a bit more mechanically pleasing. 

Shrouded Dance definitely isn't as appealing as it used to be though, in my opinion.  I never take it now with the new prereqs.



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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2020, 05:05:35 PM »
I'd like to add to this, something that is perhaps not widely known by those who see Shrouded Dance as being 'too powerful' or have had not the opportunity to use the feat themselves. With HiPS you stealth and you're gone. So fast, in fact, you can prevent any attack on your character if your stealth is high enough. And you can do this as many times as needed.

Shrouded Dance, on the other hand is actually casted. Not a free action. Your character stops doing whatever it is doing, lifts up both hands in the air and dances the macarena for a few seconds to attempt to disappear vs a DC of 30. On top of the pre-requisite feats and skills. Useable once.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2020, 06:04:15 PM by Crowl »
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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2020, 05:10:27 PM »
Didn't realise Shrouded Dance used not to have prerequisites! One of my PCs leans on it heavily for atmospheric RP, as something spooky, ambiguously magical, a little wondrous but vaguely disquieting, eschewing any attempt to explain it concretely as anything other than "magic!". I love the fact that it's required so much feat investment as to have been very much not worth it in terms of an "optimized build", since anything that makes it rarer increases that mystique. And I do confess I would be a little sad if it were definitively explained as being one thing or another (ie. it's definitely proto-shadow magic, it's definitely mundane etc.)

And +1 to Crowl's comment on that macarena dance!
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APorg

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2020, 05:20:22 PM »
Are we really going to necro a thread and then argue points raised before the change?
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Hathor

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2020, 07:23:03 PM »
Are we really going to necro a thread and then argue points raised before the change?

For those of us who are not familiar with what is different or what is wrong, could you point it out? My own post, which necro'd the thread, had nothing to do with Shrouded Dance.

APorg

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2020, 07:35:02 PM »
I'd like to add to this, something that is perhaps not widely known by those who see Shrouded Dance as being 'too powerful'

^

I mean this. Shrouded Dance was too powerful, it got nerfed; comparisons between Shadow Dancer and Shrouded Dance should be done with the new prerequirements in mind.
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