Author Topic: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread  (Read 1718 times)

aprogressivist

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2019, 04:54:23 PM »
Thirded. This whole topic is a demonstration of power-creep.
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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2019, 04:55:14 PM »
Remove Shrouded Dance.

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Erebus

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2019, 05:08:21 PM »
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature. 

zDark Shadowz

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2019, 05:34:51 PM »
Some servers make use of Shadowdancer only shortcuts between dark areas. Saves travel time, doesn't give any OP/abusive abilities.
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Hypatia

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2019, 05:56:33 PM »
I think I have to concur, while the Shrouded Dance feat is probably balanced, it steals the best thing a shadow dancer can get. People have to put a lot of thought and RP to get HiPs, and it should be unique and special to them.

When feats are added that steal all the thunder from other classes, its terrible for party dynamics. D&D works best when every class has something about it that sets it apart from all others so that you need to form groups and rely on other people for what you lack.  In NWN2 they added some ridiculous feat for bards that made them a better healer than a dedicated healer; an aura that casts mass heal & harm.. every round for a long time, and bards could do it like 20+ time per day. Instantly makes healers obsolete and useless. Thus, I quite playing NWN2. So I can see why giving any stealthy character the ability that ONLY a shadow dancer should be able have would ruffle feathers big time for the people who put in the RP and application to have this.

I think there would be more reasonable justification for this feat if the "perform" prereq was jacked waaaay the hell up. This seems like a pretty advanced dance move. You could literally get 5 ranks at level 1, and that seems more on par with someone who can do the centipede without getting hurt and can do the macarena without blundering into their neighbor when everyone shuffles to the left... Michael Jackson wasn't pulling off the moon-walk at no level 1 with 5 ranks in perform. No way... he had to take his perform skill way up there before he was gliding backwards across the stage like that. I'd say at least 10 ranks for the moonwalk. To vanish entirely while doing an action that actually draws MORE attention to you such as dancing around like a crazy-person in the middle of a fight?!? 15 ranks MINIMUM. Also, if you need like 15 ranks in perform, than you'd have a VALID Rp justification for being able to pull off this kind of move and the feat wouldn't be something you grab without planning, like a pack of gum at the grocery store check out. Its something that would require a serious investment in perform and stealth and no one could be able to give you crap for a once-a-day HiPs because of that.

So in short.. the perform requirment needs to be much higher in order to justify why someone can bust out moves so amazing, that you actually loose sight of them.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:11:45 PM by Hypatia »

PlatointheCave

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2019, 06:35:17 PM »
I have changed my mind. Shrouded Dance encourages rogues to drop their stealth advantage to roleplay without having to feel like they've made themselves very vulnerable to do it. The value in allowing more antagonistic rogues to engage in scenes that'd otherwise be too risky outweighs the hit to SD mystique.

They still get to zip in and out of the shadows actively in battle and, frankly, stealthier classes needed a buff.
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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2019, 06:38:50 PM »
I have changed my mind. Shrouded Dance encourages rogues to drop their stealth advantage to roleplay without having to feel like they've made themselves very vulnerable to do it. The value in allowing more antagonistic rogues to engage in scenes that'd otherwise be too risky outweighs the hit to SD mystique.

They still get to zip in and out of the shadows actively in battle and, frankly, stealthier classes needed a buff.

carry a bottled black instead of having a one-button win like the rest of us boomers used to do
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:45:28 PM by Pav »
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herkles

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2019, 06:40:34 PM »
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature.

that would be neat and fitting for a shadow dancer. I wonder how the Shadow Jump would be implemented though.

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2019, 06:42:55 PM »
I'd love to see some more class features for Shadowdancer that play into the 'trickster' archetype the PrC is built around.

In pen-and-paper Shadowdancers have two class features not replicated in nwn: Shadow Illusion, which functions as the silent image spell, and Shadow Jump, which functions as a short-range teleport a-la Dimension Door. In Pathfinder, they also get access to bonus Rogue feats and Shadow Conjuration/Greater Shadow Conjuration

I think some of these features could be implemented here. Shadow Conjuration as a spell-like ability with scaling uses/day with levels should be accomplishable, and would add a little flair and utility to the class.

Shadow Illusion, whilst potentially very neat and useful in pnp, can't really be replicated in nwn outside of DMed events.

Shadow Jump would be an excellent addition to the class, and give Shadowdancers something really unique and commanding, but also befitting their mystical nature.

that would be neat and fitting for a shadow dancer. I wonder how the Shadow Jump would be implemented though.

Been done by non-Sinfar coded servers, no reason it can't be done here.
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foxtale

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2019, 06:43:15 PM »
I think it is fine to have a variety of stealth characters that can do very similar things, just like it is fine that both Barbarians and fighters - if we look under the bottom of the line - are just good at making enemies dead with mundane tools. They can coexist and I agree with PlatointheCave's point that Shrouded Dance helped add to server atmosphere by empowering antagonists to play more prominent roles, thus letting others react more prominently as well.

I believe shadow dancers themselves should gain their flair and prestige from something more than the stealth mechanics. As I take it, a very big deal about them is that they are mystical and not just good at hiding, so this should be reflected in the game mechanics in a way that is a little more... flashy than HipS.

I support the people that suggested to give them more abilities like darkness casts and other trickster tools.
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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2019, 06:45:32 PM »
I agree with PlatointheCave's point that Shrouded Dance helped add to server atmosphere by empowering antagonists to play more prominent roles, thus letting others react more prominently as well.

carry a bottled black instead of having a one-button win like the rest of us boomers used to do

/s

To harp on some points I mentioned elsewhere before, and to post them publicly:

  • Shrouded Dance is currently the Rogue equivalent of G-Sanc. Like G-Sanc, it has only one or two counterplays and is essentially a one-button win / escape, and it is being abused.
  • Shrouded Dance takes away from the mystique of a Shadowdancer by making the act of disappearing into stealth something commonplace.
  • People very often forget that alternatives exist to one-button wins, in methods of escape. Valid alternatives that have some thought into them are usually preferable, to ones that are simply better without par, in terms of balance and flavor for encounters. It gets old seeing someone get out of a sticky situation without making a small sacrifice or without playing smart.
  • The counter-argument that HiPS does the same thing is null and void when we look at the sacrifices made between them. 5 ending levels of an otherwise mechanically impotent class, less skillpoints, less total BAB, less damage (via loss of sneak attacks) is a fair price to pay in comparison to 5 spent skillpoints and a feat.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 07:19:25 PM by Pav »
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zDark Shadowz

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2019, 08:43:45 PM »
Unless you're pure ranger and get HiPS on top of 17 levels of ranger awesome. HiPS available outside of Shadowdancer is pretty meh.

There was a thread before on this where I was an advocate of shadowdancers getting 1/day Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 ability.

I hate stealth in general so I speak from bias and non-logical opinion when I say stealth needs a hard counter, there's not enough Spot short of an elven/halfling zen archery druid who brews insight/clairaudience/clairvoyance/true seeing, using Cat's Vision + Hawkvision & acquiring all Spot items they can use (can't use the eyes of eagle helmet because bronze) and prebuffing everywhere and at any time before seeing someone and so could be accused of meta-gaming when they do drink potions against someone they can't otherwise 'see'.

Even then that's not enough for some stealth builds & gear combinations. Simply because 50point skill cap + modifiers + feats + weather penalties + additional modifiers from distance, directional & objects in between (though at least the last 3 are on the actual positioning skill of the stealthed to acquire those.)

This all detracts from Shadowdancer feedback. Playing as a Shadowdancer on another server, the only feedback I can give is HiPS overshadows many other feats anyone could put acquire elsewhere. It's pretty damn awesome... But it's also why it needs a hard counter like true seeing actually working like true seeing, even if it was only possible through a Shapechange lvl 9 spell into a dragon that cant fit through narrow corridors and all Barovians would run screaming from.
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Pav

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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2019, 08:49:04 PM »
There was a thread before on this where I was an advocate of shadowdancers getting 1/day Shadow Shield as a lvl 10 ability.

I hate stealth in general so I speak from bias and non-logical opinion when I say stealth needs a hard counter, there's not enough Spot short of an elven/halfling zen archery druid who brews insight/clairaudience/clairvoyance/true seeing, using Cat's Vision + Hawkvision & acquiring all Spot items they can use (can't use the eyes of eagle helmet because bronze) and prebuffing everywhere and at any time before seeing someone and so could be accused of meta-gaming when they do drink potions against someone they can't otherwise 'see'.

Even then that's not enough for some stealth builds & gear combinations. Simply because 50point skill cap + modifiers + feats + weather penalties + additional modifiers from distance, directional & objects in between (though at least the last 3 are on the actual positioning skill of the stealthed to acquire those.)

This all detracts from Shadowdancer feedback. Playing as a Shadowdancer on another server, the only feedback I can give is HiPS overshadows many other feats anyone could put acquire elsewhere. It's pretty damn awesome... But it's also why it needs a hard counter like true seeing actually working like true seeing, even if it was only possible through a Shapechange lvl 9 spell into a dragon that cant fit through narrow corridors and all Barovians would run screaming from.

Let me answer your points as they go.

  • This is the very same thread, and I would agree with that addition and support it if it was made, though I'd prefer to see other things that fit the class better.
  • Inaccurate. Fully geared and fully buffed detection beats out fully geared and fully buffed stealth at similar level ranges.
  • Shadowdancers on most other servers have a slew of other unique abilities that HiPS definitely does not overshadow because detecting them is relatively easy. Countering it is the same counter as to stealth - don't neglect your detection skill. Also, dragonshape was nerfed here to not afford you actual true seeing.
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Re: Shadowdancer Feedback Thread
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2019, 08:33:10 PM »
I've split off the general stealth discussion to another thread. Please keep this thread contained more specifically to the intended discussion on Shadowdancers.