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Author Topic: Artifact System: Legendary Items  (Read 2525 times)

Anthaxious

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Artifact System: Legendary Items
« on: April 20, 2018, 08:14:25 PM »
What am I talking about?
Would be neat to have a system like I've seen on other Roleplaying Servers, where you in the loot tables in high level areas, you can find pieces of an artifact.

What is an artifact?
I'm glad you asked, it's a unique item that there is only ONE of in the whole entire server. These items have greatly improved stats and typically have some kind of legendary lore surrounding them. For example, the "Club of Detonation" or the holy avenger greatsword "Carsomyr".


How would this work in Ravenloft?
Well, I would assume that the loot tables in select areas, or perhaps on specific creatures/bosses would be updated to include artifact portions.

Claiming an Artifact:
When a character has acquired all pieces of the artifact, they can have it repaired and re-crafted by a smith of legendary skill. While I think characters should be able to do this on their own, there should also be an NPC to do it.



When an artifact is crafted, it is claimed and thereby removing the ability for anyone else to craft it while it exists on the character. The artifact would be blood bonded to the person whom claimed it. If another person would attempt to wield the item (pick it up at any point) then it would shatter, and thus free up the possibility of another one being crafted. This allows for interesting conflicts to take place, where one person could seek out another to be able to claim the artifact for their own.



There's more!
Finally, there would be upgrades available to the artifacts with minor and major upgrade tokens. These would be the most rare of items to be found in any loot table, the occurrence being less than a lightning striking in the same place twice.

Upgrade Tokens:
With minor and major upgrade tokens, there would be a list to choose from to add item properties to the artifact. This list could be curated by the developers, to best suite the Ravenloft module.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 08:21:10 AM by Anthaxious »

Philos

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2018, 08:40:19 PM »
As this would be a pretty major change, you might want to suggest it in the EE update thread.

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48192.msg596529#msg596529

Nemesis 24

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2018, 09:46:59 PM »
If I can put my own thoughts down, there are a couple of things and systems already in place that would preclude this from taking place.

For a start, we have enchanting, which drastically increases the power of crafted equipment to be of a higher tier than anything that is possible to be looted.  These would take the place of what is acceptable as an 'artifact' weapon.

Secondly, artifact items that are lore intensive 'do' exist in game, but they are not found or looted, they are the result of DM quests and plotlines, handed out for specific purposes.  The powers are secret, but for the most part, these powers are roleplay based, and the items 'do' exist only one at a time in game - and under heavy secrecy usually!

Thirdly, this system feels a fair bit too much like an MMO's mechanics.  Sure, the one in play system is a thing, but grinding out to get a powerful item feels like a reward for constant grinding rather than DM story, and that's somewhat off the mark for the reason for getting such things.

Anthaxious

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2018, 10:45:35 PM »
For a start, we have enchanting, which drastically increases the power of crafted equipment to be of a higher tier than anything that is possible to be looted.  These would take the place of what is acceptable as an 'artifact' weapon.

I'm not suggesting removal of enchanting. The artifacts I'm suggesting would be much harder to obtain than enchanting, and would be more powerful at that. Considering there would only ever be one existing item, the concepts are not really the same.

Secondly, artifact items that are lore intensive 'do' exist in game, but they are not found or looted, they are the result of DM quests and plotlines, handed out for specific purposes.  The powers are secret, but for the most part, these powers are roleplay based, and the items 'do' exist only one at a time in game - and under heavy secrecy usually!

That is great, and I hope I'll get to see one at some point. The problem with relying on DM quests and plotlines to acquire such items is that for a multitude of reasons, this is not likely to happen for many players. Whether it be that they are not online when DM's are, or that they don't really fit the DM quest plot, or they are just not favoured by that DM in any way.

Once again, I'm not saying DM's couldn't still do this if the system was in place, the two could easily coexist.

Thirdly, this system feels a fair bit too much like an MMO's mechanics.  Sure, the one in play system is a thing, but grinding out to get a powerful item feels like a reward for constant grinding rather than DM story, and that's somewhat off the mark for the reason for getting such things.

This is where you lose me entirely. I have never seen an MMO with artifacts, finding pieces of something to build an item already exists in Ravenloft, so if you're afraid of that mechanic I'm afraid you're too late to stop it from being part of the module.

Whether or not constant grinding is something that would happen is another story. I don't really think that has ever been a problem, and given that the nature of where these items would likely be found, I doubt that it would be done so easily.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2018, 01:20:47 AM »
Its the more powerful part which is a very good reason against it.  Enchanted equipment is the absolute upper echelon of power for equipment.  Something beyond that, even limited to one at a time (which would go to players who play characters that endure for very long times simply due to time spent = automatic reward in this instance) is going to throw balancing askew.

The DM's using such things very, very rarely is extremely deliberate, it is heavily controlled and proscribed for many reasons which are not open for discussion, and best learned by experience in game.  Something beyond that power - or approaching them, mechanically or RP wise - to be found in game without DM oversight and limitation is very much against the server ethos of how the overall server story works.  Simply put, not everyone is -supposed- to encounter these items in their entire career here.  I know of people who've been here for years and years and never encountered one of the 'story' artifact items, it's just how it works out.


Lastly, in regards to the MMO mechanics.  There is a significant difference between mining iron and copper, and cutting down trees, to make equipment and items, to killing a boss in a dungeon for a random drop chance of a fragment of say the Sunsword.  The first is natural crafting requirements.  The latter sounds like running a dungeon in WoW to get the components of an extremely rare and powerful item.  Hence the MMO statement.

ViktorYouFool

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2018, 04:00:00 AM »
While I like the idea in theory, this sounds like another one of those things that would just go to the handful of people who can already afford the best things in the module. If the artifact dropped at such a rate that it was rare enough to fulfill the concept, then the pieces thereof would just become another piece of 100k-500k+ gear that gets thrown around among the people who can afford to pay top dollar for such things.



Nemesis 24

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2018, 04:17:33 AM »
Actually strongly agree with Viktor on this point too.  The best thing about the plot relevant artifacts is not gold, level, grinding or anything like that, but simply plot relevance.  That's where this sort of thing belongs.

Anthaxious

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 08:28:16 AM »
Each artifact designed would come with an expressed plot relevance. The idea's are not mutually exclusive, and I've not really defined any specific artifact's here so the actualized item's could be anything at this point. As I mentioned in my original post, the items would be legendary, and would have both lore relevance and plot relevance.

As towards the idea of selling pieces of the artifacts... If the pieces were to be sold, of course they would go for a hefty price. I don't see that as a negative, and I'm not sure why anyone else would.

The player-to-player market system is something this server encourages, so I'm not sure why offering yet more things to be traded and sold would be seen as something bad.

Enchanted Equipment is nice and all, but it's not really unique. I'm suggesting something that goes a little further than that.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 09:08:03 AM »
For how things work - plotwise on the server, especially in the major meta - they 'are' mutually exclusive.  The items you are speaking about are not, and never will be handed out arbitrarily to the players, they require strict DM oversight to be entered into the game.  They are also not for trading around.  These are items that if it was widely known a PC had them, they would be killed for them, not just by players but by the dark lords themselves, who absolutely would kill them for such things, and everyone who even knows about such things existing.  These items are storytelling items, and are NOT - and never will be - a mechanical reward.  It works in World of Warcraft, it just doesn't work here, its not that sort of setting or system, and I don't see it changing.

Also if these items are designed to be more powerful than the current enchanted items, I don't know how to say this, but it just would never ever happen.  Considering just how incredibly strong enchanted gear is already, you're talking about epic level items, post level 20, which don't belong here.

Frankly I'm surprised someone of authority hasn't come in yet on this topic.  It's just so far out of the server dynamic, and I get that you don't see that, but given time I hope that you do.

ttt4tt

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 09:19:49 AM »
While I like the idea in theory, this sounds like another one of those things that would just go to the handful of people who can already afford the best things in the module. If the artifact dropped at such a rate that it was rare enough to fulfill the concept, then the pieces thereof would just become another piece of 100k-500k+ gear that gets thrown around among the people who can afford to pay top dollar for such things.


If you’re afraid of disturbing the balance, your rationale seems to indicate that  there is already an unbalance with adventurers that are seen as more powerful. For a server that has been around for over a decade, there are no doubt players that have the ability and the funds to obtain most anything in game. While this may be a valid concern for artifact items, it isn’t necessarily true. In fact this kind of implimentation could very well increase interest for new adventurers for those who haven’t yet found a reason to explore dungeons and also rejuvenate interests for those who have already explored much of the mist. The very nature of said system would certainly expand on player character interactions and increase role play narratives, even potentially providing an incentive for certain factions or classes.

The argument being made here is that the most powerful would become more powerful. While that isn’t out of the realm of possibilities, it shouldn’t be the deciding factor. In my opinion legendary items already exist, when you consider the fact that DM’s hand out rare plot items and only certain characters have access to, some items are even being sold in trade markets to the highest bidder, the characters whom can afford them.

What makes this an exciting proposition, is the fact that everyone would have an equal opppourtunity to explore the world and find pieces to an artifact, potentially earning something substantial for their efforts. Any artifact would involve lots of consideration, but with the attention of developers could be implemented during the Enhanced Edition release.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 11:43:17 AM »
Rare items are enchanted items are still worlds and worlds apart in power and raw price.  Base item price alone of an adamantium enchanted greatsword is several million gold, whereas most items don't go much higher than six thousand at most.  Going further than that is just crazy.  And this system of grinding out for the best, legendary gear as plot relevant items is just... its an MMO thing.  Its grind.  Its not RP.  It's just time equals reward, this is not World of Warcraft, it doesn't work like this. 

Anthaxious

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2018, 11:53:23 AM »
Rare items are enchanted items are still worlds and worlds apart in power and raw price.  Base item price alone of an adamantium enchanted greatsword is several million gold, whereas most items don't go much higher than six thousand at most.  Going further than that is just crazy.  And this system of grinding out for the best, legendary gear as plot relevant items is just... its an MMO thing.  Its grind.  Its not RP. 

I don't get why you keep trying to liken this to an MMO thing, it's in no way similar.

It's just time equals reward, this is not World of Warcraft, it doesn't work like this.

That is already the status of the server. By your own admission, enchanted items are quite powerful, and these are just a time sink, as it requires a certain level, and time spent to find the ingredients. The new system I'm proposing follows this same logic, but with a more unique feel to it, that would encourage more roleplay and inter-community conflicts and many other roleplaying opportunities.

Lion El'Jonson

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2018, 11:53:28 AM »
As a long time player of World of Warcraft, I think this would be a terrible idea. Artifacts stay away.

Edit: To be a bit more constructive, I think plot items should only be found by DM volition. Sure, they aren't going to happen to a lot of players, but these kinds of items are at that level of rarity.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 11:55:47 AM by Dale »

MAB77

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2018, 12:47:47 PM »
Even in pen and papers game, artefacts are handled very carefully. And all Ravenloft artefacts have special side effects requiring DM supervision.

Something that is being seriously considered though, is for special crafting materials that may be looted to craft special items. Things on par with standard crafted gear, but with unique abilities. And definitively less than enchanted ones in power. Enchanted items is the highest reward for high level PCs that can be obtained without DM intervention and that is there to stay (* that and some epic loot of course). Again. The key word here is balance and that is difficult to achieve. Even more powerful items is certainly not something this server needs (that is my personnal opinion).

Of a more important and immediate concern to us, and I dare say most players, is the quality of the loot drops. And as to that, Dread is spearheading a massive attempt to improve that by rebalancing the treasuries.

But artefact level items, earn them through roleplay. There will never be another way.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 12:54:40 PM by MAB77 »
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ttt4tt

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #14 on: April 21, 2018, 01:40:01 PM »
As a long time player of World of Warcraft, I think this would be a terrible idea. Artifacts stay away.

Edit: To be a bit more constructive, I think plot items should only be found by DM volition. Sure, they aren't going to happen to a lot of players, but these kinds of items are at that level of rarity.

With all due respect, as a long time player of Neverwinter Nights, I think this would be a terrific idea. Artifacts improve gameplay.

Any artifact items should carry significant lore and would be seen as be plot items. The role play opportunities are dynamic, especially if these were faction based. Expressed concerns with imbalance, yet as been mentioned, this already exists. One could argue that this sort of system could help improve any perceived imbalance and promote more plots, more interactions, and increased community involvement.

The nature of an artifact means not every player can obtain the item, however that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be considered. To say it’s not in the spirit of role play or claim in doesn’t follow the ethos of this persistent world is disingenuous. In reality, artifacts are being considered but are DM only items. I think giving more characters opportunities at this achievement beyond DM quest role play should be encouraged. A natural fit for a DM-lite server. 
To suggest it shouldn’t be considered simply because of negative experiences with a completely different game, is a bit close-minded...

Instead of undermining the intent and interests of others by claiming the idea is bad and more inline with an MMO,  let’s constructively discuss the positive aspects of said artifact implementation.

In my opinion, the lore involved and potential for influence would add an additional aspect to the dynamics of the server. This might be a welcomed opportunity to create a lasting impression. It would certainly offer an alternative for those that aren’t part of the strategic “exit” plan.

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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2018, 02:27:57 PM »
While I like the idea in theory, this sounds like another one of those things that would just go to the handful of people who can already afford the best things in the module. If the artifact dropped at such a rate that it was rare enough to fulfill the concept, then the pieces thereof would just become another piece of 100k-500k+ gear that gets thrown around among the people who can afford to pay top dollar for such things.


If you’re afraid of disturbing the balance, your rationale seems to indicate that  there is already an unbalance with adventurers that are seen as more powerful. For a server that has been around for over a decade, there are no doubt players that have the ability and the funds to obtain most anything in game. While this may be a valid concern for artifact items, it isn’t necessarily true. In fact this kind of implimentation could very well increase interest for new adventurers for those who haven’t yet found a reason to explore dungeons and also rejuvenate interests for those who have already explored much of the mist. The very nature of said system would certainly expand on player character interactions and increase role play narratives, even potentially providing an incentive for certain factions or classes.

The argument being made here is that the most powerful would become more powerful. While that isn’t out of the realm of possibilities, it shouldn’t be the deciding factor. In my opinion legendary items already exist, when you consider the fact that DM’s hand out rare plot items and only certain characters have access to, some items are even being sold in trade markets to the highest bidder, the characters whom can afford them.
No. My argument was that there are already crazy good items that have a one-in-a-million drop rate and they already only ever end up in the hands of a handful of people who can afford to buy them at auction. With your proposed system, either:
1) These artifacts have a similar or lower drop rate, in which case all we've done is add another piece of ridiculously expensive rare stuff that winds up in the hands of the same people, which benefits no one
2) or the drop rate is substantially greater, in which case the first people who bother to grind for them will end up getting them. But even then, if you're going to have a ridiculously powerful artifact, the pieces will almost certainly drop in the same high-end areas of the game that are already mostly only run by the same people above.

I just don't see what this adds to the server as a whole. If anything, the nature of the thing will just mean it just benefits the same people who already have the best gear or the cash to afford it. Balance has nothing to do with my objection. 

What makes this an exciting proposition, is the fact that everyone would have an equal opppourtunity to explore the world and find pieces to an artifact, potentially earning something substantial for their efforts. Any artifact would involve lots of consideration, but with the attention of developers could be implemented during the Enhanced Edition release.
Everyone has an "equal opportunity" to explore the world and find rare drops now. In theory, this is true in the sense that anyone can attempt to grind to 20, find enough friends to make a properly structured party, and then grind the crap out of sithicus or whatever. In practice, this isn't the case at all. There's only a very small subset of the population who have the levels, resources, and groups necessary to actually run the areas of content where such a thing would drop, and that's knowing the existing good loot that drops in places like that. Adding extra good loot wouldn't allow more people to explore high-end content.

And, honestly. The people who will acquire all the artifact pieces are almost certainly going to be the ninja looters who dont' actually require any of the above, just sufficient stealth and invis pots or whatever.

Even in pen and papers game, artefacts are handled very carefully. And all Ravenloft artefacts have special side effects requiring DM supervision.

Something that is being seriously considered though, is for special crafting materials that may be looted to craft special items. Things on par with standard crafted gear, but with unique abilities. And definitively less than enchanted ones in power. Enchanted items is the highest reward for high level PCs that can be obtained without DM intervention and that is there to stay (* that and some epic loot of course). Again. The key word here is balance and that is difficult to achieve. Even more powerful items is certainly not something this server needs (that is my personnal opinion).

Of a more important and immediate concern to us, and I dare say most players, is the quality of the loot drops. And as to that, Dread is spearheading a massive attempt to improve that by rebalancing the treasuries.

But artefact level items, earn them through roleplay. There will never be another way.

Now This is something that I'm very interested in. I've always thought it would be neat if they could really expand what enchanted gear can do. I have a bunch of thoughts on that, but they seem fitting for a different thread rather than clogging up this one.



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Re: Artifact System: Legendary Items
« Reply #16 on: April 21, 2018, 03:17:26 PM »
Adding to what MAB already said.

Those artefact would pretty rare according to what you're saying, so they would only benefit a very few people. More over, since they'd be hard to get, only a few amount of people would ever have a chance to get those. Also considering this would require quite a bit of work for something that would benefit only a small number of players, it's not worth it I think.

This is also supposed to be a low magic setting, I don't think something that makes artefact something casual has its place here.

While I do not think the idea is bad, it doesn't have its place in a setting like this one and artefact should not be carelessly be handed out like that either.
Speaking for myself, I'm 100% against a system like that.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 03:20:24 PM by Iluvatar »
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