Author Topic: Of Paladins and Poisons  (Read 2170 times)

Nemesis 24

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2018, 09:09:30 PM »
Actually its the 'undue suffering' part which makes it a no-no.  Also poison won't affect undead.  There 'was' a caveat made in Exalted Deeds for a thing called 'Ravages' which were designed to affect those of fiendish or truly evil nature.  They're a bit odd though, frankly.

derkotushka

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2018, 12:36:46 AM »
I am thinking what question about using varnishes(and alchemy in general) it is more about styles of paladins and how they like to fight with evil.
Does Sir Paladinson accepts modern view on alchemy/magic and accepts spells from wizard and uses alchemic varnishes?
Or Sir Paladinson can trust only and only to cleric of good and respectful deity to enchant his weapon?
Also it is need to add what I witnessed many times when paladins was refusing using negative energy varnishes.
Though varnishes is oil for weapon just like poison. I think if there was varnishes with bleeding/draining/poisoning effects, then they was not accepteble by paladins. But right now because they serve as cheap replacement of spells - I think this can be fairly used.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 12:38:19 AM by derkotushka »
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MAB77

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2018, 08:01:40 AM »
I wonder if the move to NWN:EE would enable us to have the alternate paladin classes from Unearthed Arcane (Where there is version for each extreme alignment; Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny, and Slaughter).

No. Unearthed Arcana is for a D&D 5e setting. It is a different set of rules. It is not required anyway with 3.5e rules as we have the Blackguard prestige class to fill that niche. And the Divine Champion class for any desired alignment.
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RedwizardD

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2018, 09:25:35 AM »
I wonder if the move to NWN:EE would enable us to have the alternate paladin classes from Unearthed Arcane (Where there is version for each extreme alignment; Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny, and Slaughter).

No. Unearthed Arcana is for a D&D 5e setting. It is a different set of rules. It is not required anyway with 3.5e rules as we have the Blackguard prestige class to fill that niche. And the Divine Champion class for any desired alignment.

No? No. That's not correct. There is an edition of Unearthed Arcana from 3.5 (which is the book I am refering to).


« Last Edit: April 17, 2018, 09:35:32 AM by RedwizardD »

Nemesis 24

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2018, 10:09:54 AM »
I thought you were referring to the 3.5 edition.  Honestly though the 'any alignment' paladin is a horrific box of crappy worms.  UA has some rather nonsense stuff in it tbh.

A minor Glamour

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2018, 11:12:19 AM »
PHB is a core book and such books take precedence over other books unless explicitly contradicted. As such, since itís indicated in the PHB, using poison would go against a paladinís code and would cause a fall. Thereís no subjectivity involved. A paladin is held to a higher morale/standard than the culture they come from.

Edit: Since itís part of the paladinís code, a paladin using poison would technically warrant a powers check, same as if they were lying or cheating. Not because itís necessarily evil but because they are breaking their code.

BOOM! PWNED, OWNED, thanks very much, and goodnight everyone. Question answered without the need for all this wishy washy perspective nonsense, can we all go back to smiting evil dragons, and not using poisons with our paladins and have some fun.

MAB77

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #31 on: April 17, 2018, 01:49:49 PM »
Heh... I forgot the existence of that forgetable book. I will review it again see if I find anything of interest to add for the mod. But we are most unlikely to change restrictions on paladin's alignments.
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Tycat

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #32 on: April 17, 2018, 05:53:25 PM »
I am not even sure why the poison topic is being debated. Paladins do not accept or condone the use of poison, it's an evil act - period.
PHB is a core book and such books take precedence over other books unless explicitly contradicted. As such, since itís indicated in the PHB, using poison would go against a paladinís code and would cause a fall. Thereís no subjectivity involved. A paladin is held to a higher morale/standard than the culture they come from.

Edit: Since itís part of the paladinís code, a paladin using poison would technically warrant a powers check, same as if they were lying or cheating. Not because itís necessarily evil but because they are breaking their code.

BOOM! PWNED, OWNED, thanks very much, and goodnight everyone. Question answered without the need for all this wishy washy perspective nonsense, can we all go back to smiting evil dragons, and not using poisons with our paladins and have some fun.

Now moving away from poisons, the question in the OP was about varnishes. This warrants a discussion in perspective and religion, and I think varies from Paladin to Paladin.

While I am sure if I had a paladin of Tyr who would embrace any advantage in warfare to serve the 'greater good', I have a paladin of the Creator who does not believe in the greater good, and whose faith and personal opinion finds the use of brains, hearts, guts, flesh, bones, and other body parts once belonging to a living creature abhorrent and evil. He has, since coming to ravenloft, made logical concessions to use varnishes made from non organ reagents - such as dust, ash, residue, and stone parts - But this is a tough angle to take, because you have to suspend FR paladins and the concept of the greater good, and realize that a man who believes power and purity is derived of all of creation is going to find alchemy evil or at the very least, iffy.

The greater good is a concept that suggests that it's OK to do something dark or evil if it serves the forces of good (like using body parts in a magical ointment on your weapon, or killing all the Jedi children in order to join the dark side and protect your wife and babies or whatever Vader's contrived reason was). however, if you believe there is never a free pass to do something dark or evil for the sake of good, and that there is a wrong path and a right path and you have to make hard choices (this is why you're a paladin and not a Divine Champion), then you're probably not going to use varnishes either if the very practice of using brains and guts blasphemies creation.

This is an example of how a culture or a religion can cause someone to view Alchemy like they view poisons. Like I started out, a paladin of Tyr would not agree at all. Being a paladin is not easy, and you have to make hard choices even if they are against your advantage in order to stay true to your paladin's unshakable faith.

Anthaxious

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #33 on: April 17, 2018, 07:56:19 PM »
Everyone is open to their own interpretation I suppose.

I would argue that poison use is not 'inherently evil' but in most cases it is underhanded and given the right circumstance would certainly be 'evil'.

I'm not sure why using a poison, announcing it, and the usage being focused on something like an evil dragon, or some other evil creature, would somehow end up being constituted as an evil act.

Whether or not it's honorable, is an argument that could be made, but I don't know if honor and pragmatism are completely exclusive.

Regardless, varnishes are by no way underhanded, and certainly have no inherent alignment usage. If you use good holy magic to kill innocents, it's still evil. Similarly, if you use 'negative' varnishes to kill evil beasts, it could not be in any way considered 'evil'.


Iridni Ren

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2018, 08:25:15 PM »
Regardless, varnishes are by no way underhanded, and certainly have no inherent alignment usage. If you use good holy magic to kill innocents, it's still evil. Similarly, if you use 'negative' varnishes to kill evil beasts, it could not be in any way considered 'evil'.

This argument is a non sequitur because the proper treatment of innocent (good) creatures is distinct from the proper treatment of evil creatures. For example, torturing good creatures is evil; torturing evil creatures is also evil.

Freeing a falsely accused innocent from jail is good, yet imprisoning an evildoer on a false charge is still bad.

That starving a good person is wrong does not make either feeding or starving an evil person good.

From these and countless other examples, it's clear that one can't treat the two cases as some kind of mathematical inverse function.

If a substance or action is evil, using it against an evil beast does not then make it good. Negative energy, like necromancy, is in D&D terms associated with death and the undead--pretty dark stuff for a paladin (who turns undead and channels positive energy).

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A minor Glamour

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2018, 03:43:17 AM »
Everyone is open to their own interpretation I suppose.

I would argue that poison use is not 'inherently evil' but in most cases it is underhanded and given the right circumstance would certainly be 'evil'.

I'm not sure why using a poison, announcing it, and the usage being focused on something like an evil dragon, or some other evil creature, would somehow end up being constituted as an evil act.

Whether or not it's honorable, is an argument that could be made, but I don't know if honor and pragmatism are completely exclusive.

Regardless, varnishes are by no way underhanded, and certainly have no inherent alignment usage. If you use good holy magic to kill innocents, it's still evil. Similarly, if you use 'negative' varnishes to kill evil beasts, it could not be in any way considered 'evil'.

I don't think given everything I've read in the Book of Vile Deeds, or any core rule book, that using a negative energy varnish is inherently evil, in the same way that casting negative energy ray is not automatically an evil act, but what is important is not to confuse actions that require a dark powers check, and doing evil. You can still take actions that require a dark powers check in Ravenloft without doing evil, this is the slippery slope that all spellcaster have to be wary of. For example in Ravenloft casting necromancy spells still requires a dark powers check regardless of why your doing it, so a neutral wizard can cast negative energy ray on a goblin, according to the variant rule it would trigger a dark power check, but it's not evil, if your just dispatching a goblin with that particular spell, because it's a spell that's available to you. So I see no distinction between using a negative energy spell and using a negative energy varnish.

However I don't have any reason to think that using the varnish requires a dark powers check either, even if it is negative energy, that's important to state, but certainly things associated with negative energy for anyone who isn't a wizard or a sorcerer would be considered very taboo, since none spellcasters typically see little difference between spells of any kind without rigorous learning and the many years of study arcane magic (certainly for wizards) requires to comprehend and to learn.

ASymphony

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2018, 12:12:13 PM »
Regardless, varnishes are by no way underhanded, and certainly have no inherent alignment usage. If you use good holy magic to kill innocents, it's still evil. Similarly, if you use 'negative' varnishes to kill evil beasts, it could not be in any way considered 'evil'.


Freeing a falsely accused innocent from jail is good, yet imprisoning an evildoer on a false charge is still bad.



That would be lawful vs chaotic

Iridni Ren

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2018, 01:24:23 PM »
Regardless, varnishes are by no way underhanded, and certainly have no inherent alignment usage. If you use good holy magic to kill innocents, it's still evil. Similarly, if you use 'negative' varnishes to kill evil beasts, it could not be in any way considered 'evil'.


Freeing a falsely accused innocent from jail is good, yet imprisoning an evildoer on a false charge is still bad.


That would be lawful vs chaotic

I think knowingly punishing someone for a crime she didn't commit is evil, regardless of whether the defendant is a nice person or not. Would your position be the same if the punishment were execution, rather than imprisonment?

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ASymphony

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2018, 01:34:46 PM »
Doesn't have much to do with my personal opinion on things, but simply the way it goes in D&D. Getting someone you know has murdered people but you can't (for whatever reason) get nailed for that imprisoned for something else would be a chaotic act, not an evil one per D&D alignment.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2018, 02:09:28 PM »
Quote
Doesn't have much to do with my personal opinion on things, but simply the way it goes in D&D. Getting someone you know has murdered people but you can't (for whatever reason) get nailed for that imprisoned for something else would be a chaotic act, not an evil one per D&D alignment.

Cite?

In any case, nowhere was it stipulated the person in question had committed any murder.

The person is assumed only to be of evil alignment.

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Anthaxious

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2018, 07:09:46 PM »
This argument is a non sequitur because the proper treatment of innocent (good) creatures is distinct from the proper treatment of evil creatures. For example, torturing good creatures is evil; torturing evil creatures is also evil.
I was not attempting to propose that all violent or harmful actions against evil creatures are good, and it is not really non-sequitor, it follows completely what we're talking about.

Usage of negative energy is not inherently evil, there really isn't any debate around that, it's just simply using the energy. My point follows concisely, that it matters how it is being used, or why it is being used, not what is being used.

Of course, I agree that for the layman Paladin, or goodly Cleric, they would probably assume negative energy is 'wrong-bad-thing' and never use it. That doesn't mean using it is actually evil, but that there is a connotation, or general assumption that it is 'evil'.


Freeing a falsely accused innocent from jail is good, yet imprisoning an evildoer on a false charge is still bad.

That starving a good person is wrong does not make either feeding or starving an evil person good.

From these and countless other examples, it's clear that one can't treat the two cases as some kind of mathematical inverse function.


I agree with all of these points, with the exception of pointing out that some of these examples are ambiguous, given that you did not mention whether the people knowingly wrongfully accuse, or starve a person.

If a substance or action is evil, using it against an evil beast does not then make it good. Negative energy, like necromancy, is in D&D terms associated with death and the undead--pretty dark stuff for a paladin (who turns undead and channels positive energy).

I have to completely disagree with you here, as I've previously stated it has very little to do with what is being used, but how and why. Of course, in a roleplay perspective there is nothing wrong with characters thinking "Negative is bad!" and "Holy is good!" but in reality, these do not in any way directly translate to the actual alignments. I reiterate again, it's about why and how it is being used.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 07:14:00 PM by Anthaxious »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2018, 02:36:08 AM »
What was a non sequitur was seeming to use treatment of a good or innocent person as being deterministic (or relevant) for judging how to treat an evil person:

Quote
If you use good holy magic to kill innocents, it's still evil. Similarly...

The two are disjoint, not similar.

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ethinos

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Re: Of Paladins and Poisons
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2018, 01:04:36 PM »
I could easily see a paladin using a fire varnish. Fire is often seen as a cleansing agent. Negative energy, no, for obvious reasons. Acid also seems cruel by nature and thus a no as well.
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