Author Topic: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)  (Read 4697 times)

BadStrref

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2018, 06:31:35 PM »
Flintlocks are already a valid target for weapon buffs (Gmw, keen, banebow etc) however the script that they function off of will only take certain effects consideration. For ab, gmw, true strike, banebow all increase your bonus to hit. The effect that is used, however, does not take eb/ab bonuses into consideration for the purpose of bypassing DR. Perhaps with EE new effects could be considered for flintlocks to replace the one we have now but I'll hazard to say it's unlikely.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2018, 07:41:43 PM »
Although there is no upcoming hak update any time soon (most likely while/after we move to EE), here's a list of upcoming feats:


It's been some time since then. It's a legitimate question, so don't be a dick. I did have other questions in that post, you know. Nah you're just gonna ignore all that because you saw an opportunity to be both pedantic and unhelpful at the same time.

Actually, it's been less than two weeks. As the rest of your questions are speculative, most of us probably can't answer them for you.

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2018, 02:49:04 AM »
Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a free action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


So can we talk about the implications of giving any class with hide as a class skill HiPS?

I agree, I think this should be discussed.

While I definitely think that rogues (and other mundane classes) are in need of some love, this feat seems like a PvP feat for the most part. DC 30 is something that a player would have difficulty reaching without gear unless they have spot/listen as a class skill, but I don't really see many mobs failing the hide check.

To my knowledge, rogues and other stealthy classes are already spectacular in PvP situations - giving all of them access to free HiPS seems excessive, especially considering how easily HiPS can be abused.

If feats like this are going to be added, then there need to be sufficient countermeasures to check them.
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aprogressivist

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 09:16:09 AM »
Well -- HIPS once per rest period can't be abused. That's not the problem with Shrouded Dance. The issue is that the pre-requisites are ridiculously cheap -- any Hide pre-req is a gimme since Stealthers are gonna max out Hide anyway -- so the only pre-req that matters is the Perform 5 one; which is very cheap.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 01:31:34 PM by aprogressivist »
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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2018, 03:10:18 PM »
-Added Extra Wild Shape/Extra Rage feats

Quote
While I definitely think that rogues (and other mundane classes) are in need of some love, this feat seems like a PvP feat for the most part. DC 30 is something that a player would have difficulty reaching without gear unless they have spot/listen as a class skill, but I don't really see many mobs failing the hide check.

The 30 Hide check is for the character using it. A stealther needs to beat a DC 30 check for the feat to work. Though keep in mind it's essentially a one-shot HiPS so you can't abuse it like HiPS to go in and out constantly. Also, as usual the best counter for Hide/MS is Spot/Listen. A character who could normally spot the character will still be able to do it.

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #30 on: April 29, 2018, 04:30:31 PM »
-Added Extra Wild Shape/Extra Rage feats

Will Extra Rage affect the spell resistance for Mystic Rage the way most other Rage feats do?

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2018, 04:39:38 PM »
-Added Extra Wild Shape/Extra Rage feats

Will Extra Rage affect the spell resistance for Mystic Rage the way most other Rage feats do?

Yes.

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #32 on: April 30, 2018, 10:50:41 AM »
The issue in what makes hips dangerous is its use for easy escape. Spamming it is fun but its really not needed. Basically all stealth classes just now have a once per 20 minutes hips use. I think the feat is to much all together. The crit immunity from pale master already got cannibalized into a druid feat. I feel like all the focused prestige classes with specific one bonus good things are getting torn up to hand out. Shadow Dancers have to jump through hoops of red tape and rp to get it. They lose thier sneak attack progression if they are a rogue. Lose spellcaster lvls and other things if they are a ranger etc.  Now we are cutting up Shadow Dancer. Why even be a shadow dancer other than the lil bit of rp you can do. If I was a shadow dancer I would just end up remaking to get rid of the otherwise useless class. Rp with your shadow anyway. At least you dont have to deal with it popping in on your death to rip your party apart. Now its more trouble than its worth.

I thought hips was supposed to be super difficult to get through shadow dancer apps just because of how dangerous it is. Not because battle use. But because the easy escape features to be used in rp situations. While I'd like to see it removed maybe put it as a lvl 20 rogue lock ability since I doubt it will be taken out.. (then you have rogue and ranger stealth classes with an ability they shouldnt have... *facepalms*) I dont think its needed. Heck I thought the rangers getting it was silly in itself as shadow dancers are put under a hot iron to rp their own hips more appropriately. Whats next up?  A feat that allows you to shapechange into an animal of your choice even if your not a druid. only need 5 points animal handling? Or perhaps feats that allow you to tear out fire breath from RDD. Or perhaps we can cannibalize arcane archer and give their fireball arrow to regular archers.

These abilities made rp choice app directions for your character feel special. If everyone can use hips that can stealth it is no longer a special ability and hips use to be high rung something that you just didnt see and it was an accomplishment for someone who had them. Now ppl will look at shadow dancers like.... why? Why take the class? There is a feat dude. This goes the same with the rest. Base classes were just ment to be that. BASE classes. Common base classes. Prestige classes on the other hand are suppose to be PRESTIGIOUS. Now you dont even have to deal with the red tape of an app anymore.

Edit to add:

Think of the situation where the garda are walking down a path. 5 characters all with this feat. maybe a monk. a ranger. a rogue etc etc some multi class ones. the garda want to grab them. they are right on top of them. they dont have to run anymore. they all hit thier hips ability and ninja away
fun?
realistic in our gritty attempt at a gothic setting?
everyone gets to be a ninja apparently

Can you imagine the difficulties now had with hunting anyone down? You spent all day hanging out in the seldom populated Village of Barovia. You see who your hunting and plan to take them in for thier various crimes or whatever... You get ready. You jump! They go into hips and...simply walk away. No running needed. This is the true power of a shadow dancer
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 11:06:38 AM by Fearghas »

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #33 on: April 30, 2018, 11:05:46 AM »
I would disagree that the real power of HIPS is making an escape. Itís a huge tool for combat scenarios.

The ability to drop in and out of stealth during combat is huge. When you attack something that canít detect you, you catch them flat footed and gain sneak attack if the class has that. Iíve also used it to disrupt spellcasting when being targeted with offensive spells. I think putting the timer on was a great move, because even with it - you can do some damage that wouldnít otherwise be possible (like seeing a kobold fight 5 pit fiends at once! :3) This is still going to be something you can only really do with a class that has HIPS as a bonus.

If anything, I think having the feat will be more usable for a one-off escape plan. Still very powerful, but you arenít going to wreck the server with it.

haifisch021

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #34 on: April 30, 2018, 06:09:19 PM »
Complete Scoundrel, p.89: Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
You can seem to be where you aren't.
 Prerequisite: Hide 8 ranks, Perform (dance) 5 ranks.
 Benefit: As a move action, you can attempt a DC 20 Hide check. If you succeed, you have concealment until the start of your next turn.


Changes from PnP to NWN:
  • +10 to Hide check DC.
  • +5 to Hide rank requirement.
  • Shrouded Dance is now a free action.

The most significant difference I see between the PnP and the NWN versions of Shrouded Dance is the type of action the feat is. Free actions rarely invoke an attack of opportunity, but free actions often do. If I were to propose a solution to balance this feat while remaining true to the source material, I would propose the following:
  • Do not make Shrouded Dance a free action; that is, have the feat operate via the action queue.
  • Make Shrouded Dance invoke an attack of opportunity and, upon a successful blow, a concentration check.

These changes make logical sense. A "dance" or similar series of movements would require some sort of wind-up or tell, and if this tell is read then an opponent would be able to react accordingly. Additionally, these changes differentiate this feat from a Shadow Dancer's HiPS. A Shadow Dancer's HiPS stems from their unique attunement to shadow (and is typically a magical property), so it would make sense that their HiPS would be a free action. Shrouded Dance's form of HiPS, however, is essentially a feint. Adequately differentiating the two forms allows for a genuinely cool and interesting mechanic to be given to those who choose to invest in the feat while simultaneously maintaining the prestige and special qualities of the hard-earned Shadow Dancer.

For further reading, I will direct you to Pav's Shadow Dancer Feedback thread: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=48338.0;topicseen
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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #35 on: April 30, 2018, 10:06:05 PM »
Quote
These changes make logical sense. A "dance" or similar series of movements would require some sort of wind-up or tell, and if this tell is read then an opponent would be able to react accordingly. Additionally, these changes differentiate this feat from a Shadow Dancer's HiPS. A Shadow Dancer's HiPS stems from their unique attunement to shadow (and is typically a magical property), so it would make sense that their HiPS would be a free action. Shrouded Dance's form of HiPS, however, is essentially a feint. Adequately differentiating the two forms allows for a genuinely cool and interesting mechanic to be given to those who choose to invest in the feat while simultaneously maintaining the prestige and special qualities of the hard-earned Shadow Dancer.

Good point about it being a Move action which triggers AoO. I'll set it up to be a quick action.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #36 on: May 01, 2018, 02:52:01 AM »
+1

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2018, 02:43:25 PM »
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Personally with how much stealth gear is out there this ability  causes any person with any kind of stealth gear to be a shadow dancer. It is a cheap and lazy feat  that should never have been brought up not even SDs get concealment from their hips. If.. And IF such a feat should exist the requierments should be higher towards 15+ hide.. of point put into it. At least.  That is at least 13 levels of. OR put in a requirement of class levels of 9 or more rogue levels..

Or possibly just make it a rogue feat only. Since if I recall rangers got hips  But you have to be pure ranger right?

I'm not against change, I often welcome change but this won't go well without it restricted or treated with the kind of strictness as the SD app...

If it was a rogue only special feat I can see that better then it being just allowed fir all since there are folks out there with a ridiculous hide that can easily meet the dc hitting over 70+ hide without breaking a sweat but my SD can only hit 50s on a roll if I'm lucky?...

Playing with the shadow is a dangerous thing and it is not something to toy with... such a power I fear well be miss used by some that don't take the time to go through the app for SD.. I humbly ask the developers to reconsider either removing it or making it a rogue special ability feat

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2018, 07:47:10 PM »
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.
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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2018, 08:56:29 PM »
 
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.

Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a quick action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


This feat encompasses the exact manner that my and Syl's shadowdancers utilize hips. For the past 11 months this has 'dance' has been how I have RPed my characters ability to HiPS. I can't explain to you how much I agree with Syl on the fact that this feat is a complete slap in the face. Any one can be a Shadowdancer now in my eyes. The only thing you would want to take the PRC for is if you want to abuse HiPS. For proof here is a screenshot from 11 months ago. Before this feat was even an idea.



The training I did and the hours I put in to obtain the SD class have turned into something I regret now with this feat.

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2018, 10:32:04 PM »
Wow, I don't know about you guys but I'm super excited to take Healing Hands. Maybe as an added bonus, you could use those hands to try and count the number of situations in which this feat is useful.

aprogressivist

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2018, 10:52:59 PM »
I'm perplexed that Shrouded Dance's prerequisites haven't been raised. It is utterly overpowered with a mere Performance 5 gate.
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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2018, 11:54:33 PM »
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.

Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a quick action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


This feat encompasses the exact manner that my and Syl's shadowdancers utilize hips. For the past 11 months this has 'dance' has been how I have RPed my characters ability to HiPS. I can't explain to you how much I agree with Syl on the fact that this feat is a complete slap in the face. Any one can be a Shadowdancer now in my eyes. The only thing you would want to take the PRC for is if you want to abuse HiPS. For proof here is a screenshot from 11 months ago. Before this feat was even an idea.



The training I did and the hours I put in to obtain the SD class have turned into something I regret now with this feat.

I mean, I've also got a Shadowdancer (as well as a Shifter, who can also use HiPS) and I'm not terribly concerned about any of this. I took the class because the story led me there, not because I wanted a fancy ability trophy to lord over others.

Mechanically, Shrouded Dance can only be used once a rest. That's not that big of a deal to me.

Lore-wise, Shadowdancers' Hide in Plain Sight is a Supernatural ability, whereas all of these others (Shrouded Dance, Ranger HiPS, Grimetrekker HiPS, Kobold HiPS) are not. Shrouded Dance in particular is a bit like throwing a blanket up and then dashing out of a room before it falls, giving the illusion that you've disappeared. That's something people should be taking into account while roleplaying these abilities.
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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2018, 03:44:38 AM »
I took the class because the story led me there, not because I wanted a fancy ability trophy to lord over others.

Nice drive by insult.

-

Only ever got to play a SD for a short period, but the class itself has a high prerequisite for application. It does seem strange that its main strength, its true strength can be easily replicated without application for a small investment.

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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2018, 11:32:54 AM »
I do want to voice a complaint about the shadow feat.. though I haven't been on as active due to rl reasons, I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

If this is a technique I'm sure this would of been thwarted by true dancers if it was found out since the dance is part of their ability. And I doubt they would share such teachings willingly..

Shrouded Dance has nothing to do with the forces that Shadowdancers utilize. Shrouded Dance is considered Manipulation and a Skill Trick, and falls more in line with Rangers and Grimetrekkers using camouflage to blend into their surroundings. Shadowdancers are the only ones with a supernatural form of HiPS, and mechanically it's still the one with the least limitations on usage, by far.

Shrouded Dance
Spoiler: show
Quote
Type of Feat: General
Prerequisite: Hide 12 ranks, Perform 5 ranks.
Benefit: The character can seem to be where he isn't. Once per day, as a quick action, he can attempt a DC 30 Hide check. If he succeeds, the character gains 50% concealment for one round and instantly hides in plain sight as if he had the feat.
Use: Selected.


This feat encompasses the exact manner that my and Syl's shadowdancers utilize hips. For the past 11 months this has 'dance' has been how I have RPed my characters ability to HiPS. I can't explain to you how much I agree with Syl on the fact that this feat is a complete slap in the face. Any one can be a Shadowdancer now in my eyes. The only thing you would want to take the PRC for is if you want to abuse HiPS. For proof here is a screenshot from 11 months ago. Before this feat was even an idea.



The training I did and the hours I put in to obtain the SD class have turned into something I regret now with this feat.

So, would you feel better if the word dance weren't in the feat's name?

This is far removed from what a shadowdancer does both mechanically and from a rp perspective. It's also significantly less powerful.
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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2018, 12:51:48 PM »
I find this feat truely and utterly a slap in the face for people taking the shadow dancer prc.

That depends. If you took SD for the mechanics, yeah, it's a slap in the face. If you took SD for the RP flavor, this skill does not concern you at all. In fact, the upcoming HAK update will be giving you more SD flavor in the form of a cooler shadow summon feat.

Personally with how much stealth gear is out there this ability  causes any person with any kind of stealth gear to be a shadow dancer.

No, it requires perform, so it's still restricted to rogues and bards. Also, being a shadowdancer is a lot more than just having HiPS.

I often welcome change but this won't go well without it restricted or treated with the kind of strictness as the SD app...

This is actually what I like most about the change. For years, shadowdancer has been considered the hardest PrC to get. The Community Council, with good reason, has had the concern that many of the people who apply for shadowdancer do so for the sole reason of getting a mechanical advantage through HiPS. Now that the goose is loose, we can expect two things to happen:

- First: The players that apply for Shadowdancer will do so mainly for the RP flavor of the class and because their storyline led them there. Mechanical advantages will be secondary at best.

- Second: The CC won't be as concerned about the PrC being taken for the wrong reasons, allowing the class to be more accessible to all players who really want it, as long as they learn the lore and have had the proper IC interactions leading to the PrC.

Both things are positive in my book.

If it was a rogue only special feat I can see that better then it being just allowed fir all since there are folks out there with a ridiculous hide that can easily meet the dc hitting over 70+ hide without breaking a sweat but my SD can only hit 50s on a roll if I'm lucky?...

Class is mostly irrelevant when it comes to Hide/MS, except some minor bonuses that rangers get in the wilderness. If they are outstealthing you, is because they have feats/gear that you also have access to. They have no real advantage over you stealth-wise.
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Re: Detailed list of new feats - Hak update (3)
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2018, 01:34:52 PM »
For years, shadowdancer has been considered the hardest PrC to get. The Community Council, with good reason, has had the concern that many of the people who apply for shadowdancer do so for the sole reason of getting a mechanical advantage through HiPS. Now that the goose is loose, we can expect two things to happen:

- First: The players that apply for Shadowdancer will do so mainly for the RP flavor of the class and because their storyline led them there. Mechanical advantages will be secondary at best.

- Second: The CC won't be as concerned about the PrC being taken for the wrong reasons, allowing the class to be more accessible to all players who really want it, as long as they learn the lore and have had the proper IC interactions leading to the PrC.

There's one big problem, however, with this thinking in that while individual parts of it may seem very reasonable, taken in its entirety I don't understand why the feat would be added.

FlyingLotus says the new feat is very mechanically different. Without addressing that, I will say instead it is either very mechanically different or it is not. Either you or he can be right, but you both cannot be because your own two points are predicated on there being little mechanical difference between the two.

If you are right, though, then the feat would seem to be saying, "Here is the mechanical advantage of the SD class without the need for the RP burden." It seems to me that this removes the incentive basis for applying for a Prestige Class (i.e., the reward for putting effort into all that RP).

Yes, virtue can be its own reward, and so can good RP, but it's pretty idealistic to think that desired behavior occurs without any reward for doing so, either in a game or a community. Why has the feat been denied for so long behind an application, if not because the mechanical advantage has been considered so significant?

Here is from the RP resources description of the class:

Quote
What people are getting tired of is otherwise seemingly normal people, suddenly disappearing and reappearing in plain sight in broad daylight without the slightest hint of how they did it - no mention of a shadows, no emotes, no facination with the dark, shadows - no thought at all into why they have taken this class. In other words, what people in general seem to loathe is the ''HiPs'ing spamin'. These are peeves going beyond one's opinion, but are subject of discussion in every single PW forums  some come across; its important to be aware of them.

Misconceptions and clarifications: Being a Shadowdancer has nothing to do with being a rogue - often believed or played as such,  any class can become a SD-  some are just much better at it than others. Rogues, rangers, and bards are the best at it, but a palemaster could become one pretty easily too, and likewise wizards/sorcerers could as well. Classes totally uninvolved with stealth could spend those cross-class skill points and become one.  A Shadow Dancer is not just someone with the supernatural ability of Hide in Plain Sight - he/she has a certain attachment to shadows - basically that's where their power comes from.

I'm not mechanically inclined enough to argue how significantly different this new feat is, but I have empathy why those in the prestige class would be upset that their signature move is being handed out to anyone who wants it--at a time when it's also being argued how to make the class stronger. Finally, if the ability was once considered so strong that it had to be very limited in who could get it, then why open it up like this?

If the app process was too restrictive (your second point), this removes not only the app process but the need to take any SD levels at all.

My windows cracked, but they can be replaced.
Your arm will tire throwing stones my way.