Author Topic: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System  (Read 4853 times)

ViktorYouFool

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Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« on: March 29, 2018, 05:09:47 AM »
This is a break-away from the ferry discussion, because the more I thought on it the more it bugged me.

The comment has already been made that the instant-travel ferries will be replaced with vardo caravan-style boat rooms so there will be more of an impact on travel time. This is great. I am all for that. What I'd love to see, though, is a carriage that would take you from Vallaki to the crossroads between VoB and the Tser pool.

"Wait wait wait, we don't want more fast travel!"
I hear you say. GOOD. I'm not suggesting fast travel. I'm suggesting slow travel. In fact, feel free to make it the same wait-time as running the same distance. Feel free to make it slower even. The speed is not the point.

Instead, what I'd love to see is a vardo-style carriage ride that will take you from one point to the other, during the day, for a fee.

"For what purpose?"
I do a ton of travel on J'qarr. For DM plots, various factions, meeting people in different places for RP, exploring different content, and so on. The road between Vallaki and the Tser pool might have been interesting to explore and tinker with the first little while.. but at this point I don't even see it when I run it anymore. My brain is on autopilot, zoning out while I repeat the motion for the thousandth time. It's not an adventure anymore, it's just a hassle. Tedious and exhausting. The blind sprint across the distance adds nothing to the player experience as a solo venture.

The primary reason, however, is that this situation is far worse when you're traveling with other players. Even if you're choosing to walk the entire distance, walking while talking is a pain in the butt. If you actually want to traverse the distance in a reasonable amount of time, you're running the whole way instead. In almost every group with which I've ever made the trip, once you get out of vallaki people just stop RPing until they make it to the Tser Pool or VoB. They'll trade a quip or two as they go, but most people are just waiting to get to wherever so they can go back to the actual conversation they wanted to have.

A vardo-like carriage ride between the two would allow players to use the travel time to more easily RP the travel, as well as serving as another minor gold sink. And if people wanted to get there faster, they could always do what most people do now anyway - expeditious retreat and sprint the whole way.

"Wouldn't this bypass the dangers on the road?"
Let's be real here for a moment. During the day, there's nothing on the route that's going to pose a problem to anyone who is paying attention. I've had level 2 characters who have made the run to the Tser Pool and back. The wolf spawns can be avoided and the Ogres can be sprinted past. You'll get away before their AI finishes the buffing routine. The only place that poses any real threat is that one bit just before midway of which I forget the name. The ruined tower in the narrow pass with bandits/ogres/hob goblins. Even that can usually be sprinted past in most situations, though the bandit archers can be nasty.

At night, it's a different story. That route can be nasty at night.. But that's fine. The carriage doesn't need to run at night. The ferries don't run at night either. Good Barovians are at home with their doors locked and garlic lining every possible crack of the structure. Eating their turnips, or whatever they do.

As a weird side-effect, this would actually mean that the spawns along that road were visited less often. Thus, when someone did want to take an adventure cross-country, they'd be more likely to face actual danger. Win win for everyone.

I want to reiterate again. It's not about making travel faster or easier. My main is a sorcerer. I can invis and extended haste the entire way on a single rest cycle. I already have it about as easy-mode as I can get. What I would want is to be able to have the kind of travel-RP I get out of the short caravan trips through the mists on the long-road I find myself crossing the most frequently.



BraveSirRobin

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2018, 05:16:02 AM »
+1 to everything.

ViktorYouFool

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2018, 05:21:18 AM »
..Plus. You already built a bus stop at the crossroads.



MAB77

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2018, 07:43:17 AM »
(NOT speaking for the Dev team here, just my personal opinion)

A big problem to me is that regardless of the speed, be it fast or slow, any traveling system eases up the possibility of High level characters to return easily to Vallaki. Something we are hard pressed to find a solution to. We wish for high level characters to quit Vallaki at some point and not return (not too often anyway).

Granted this is an issue that goes beyond the traveling system, I'm quite realist that a more complete solution lies in adding content for high level characters that will entice them to stay afar. But linking Vallaki and VoB clearly defeats that purpose. It makes it too easy. Regardless of the time it takes, one could just hop in a wagon, take a break from the game and return, no real hassle, no reason to stay abroad. I'm not advocating removing the caravans, but we need deterrents to that type of travel. I much prefer when players have to work for it to get there and the distance serves as an effective deterrent. I'd move access to the Mist Camp from the Tser Pool to Edrigan, with the Tser Pool caravan taking you only to the Port. This would likely increase the likelyhood of Dementlieu as the High Level hub precisely because traveling back to Vallaki becomes less interesting. The only other deterrent I can think of is to make the price prohibitive.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 07:59:19 AM by MAB77 »
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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2018, 08:10:29 AM »
Someone in the NWN:EE thread remarked that horses were fixed. If true maybe a more interesting way of travel would be to rent horses between Vallaki and VoB. Faster travel but still having to work for it.
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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2018, 08:16:40 AM »
I'm quite realist that a more complete solution lies in adding content for high level characters that will entice them to stay afar.

While I agree with you that the VoB should remain isolated, I think you have it the wrong way around. You don't need to entice high levels away; there's plenty of good reasons to leave (mostly for big money and XP). But there's even bigger reasons to come back periodically -- and I'm not even including Factions in this assessment.

One issue is, the server Crafting economy is based mostly around Vallaki. If I want to practice herbalism, I go back to Vallaki to buy low levels' herbs. If I want to practice smithing, well, I can practice it in other domains, but I'll only find a steady market for my steel goods in Vallaki (if at all). If I want to buy in bulk and sell in bulk, I go to Vallaki.

The irony is, in isolating Vallaki from the rest of the server, the server's also isolated the bulk (in both senses of the word) of player Crafting economy in Vallaki. It means there's a marked dichotomy between the setting and the IG reality experienced by players; the western Old Svalich road is meant to be a trade road but for players, it's mostly a dead end.

You can't really design your way out of that; to try to segregate the player economy based on levels will only further exacerbate the artificiality of the situation. Just look at what you're proposing -- moving the Mist Camp access to Edrigan makes sense on an OOC level, but on an IC level, why would the Tser Pool lead to Port beyond strange magical Vistani reasons? And if you make it harder or more expensive for high levels to come back, you're also incentivising them to stay in Vallaki until they need to leave.

(I mean if we're going to start redesigning routes, I already suggested a more logical way of travelling about the Core.)

There is a solution to all of this, but one that the dev team considers anathema -- the introduction of NPC middlemen to buy/transport goods. "No, no, no, such work is precisely what PC merchants and couriers are for," some will doubtless say. If they say this in the same breath as trying to brainstorm more obstacles for PCs to travel or further incentivise PCs from staying away the main Crafting hub, I don't know how better to illustrate the corner we're painting ourselves into.

The reality is this: either goods will travel, or PCs will travel. If you don't want PCs to go to the goods, then you must allow the goods to go to PCs.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 08:20:37 AM by aprogressivist »
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MAB77

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2018, 08:27:55 AM »
All you say regarding crafting is true. We can act on this though.

Already, herbalism will soon get a huge upgrade that will certainly entice players to get non-barovian herbs. This might help.

I will tackle Tailoring next. Sprinkling craft components accross domains (not only the base resources), so that the best tailored items will be easier made outside Barovia.
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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2018, 08:32:42 AM »
Already, herbalism will soon get a huge upgrade that will certainly entice players to get non-barovian herbs. This might help.

It will only stimulate a herbalism economy outside of Vallaki if there are players there to pick the herbs; but the isolation of Vallaki means low levels can't pick them, while high levels have better things to do than go around herb picking.

Don't get me wrong, I think it will help a bit, but it doesn't address the underlying root causes of player footfall and movement of PCs/goods. Vallaki is the only place where my herbalist can buy herbs by the dozens of bags/boxes.
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SanneJ

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2018, 09:20:57 AM »
Doesn't a caravan make the lets say the ogres between midway and the castle, and the danger of traveling at night sort of point less? I don't know about everyone else, but as a low lvl (that doesn't know the server that well) it's a real danger.


Also, if the horses are fixed I would love for gnomes/halflings to be able to ride goats!! XD
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RedwizardD

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2018, 09:32:02 AM »
I think think the attempts to force IC behavior with OOC mechanics is really not a good idea. Sure you can spread the crafting of items out or insist on travel being long time consuming and tedious. But that's really not going to deter someone who has to do it anyway, who might have rp reason to be there. Monsters discourage low levels, not high-levels. I don't think having a cart travel system is going to result a sudden influx of high level characters either. In fact. I would wager it makes them more willing to leave for extended periods.

But this digresses from the topic. Having a cart you can ride in and rp in sounds like a fantastic idea. There is good rp to be had in such a scenario. If it had the same limitations as Vistani travel (one cart outgoing/incoming) it would also limit how rapidly the travel can occur. If the return trips are the issue, you could always put a delay in between how often carriages return to Vallaki.

I also don't understand on the insistence in VoB being separated so much from the rest of the domain when it is usually dead empty anyway. Perhaps the arrival/departing hub for the 'slow travel' system could be in VoB? It would add some traffic through the village and could encourage traders to gather there (perhaps in the map with the farms?) as a middle grounds between vallaki and the rest of the server. It might even help encourage players to 'spread out' since travel would be less prohibitive. during NCW you can just disable the carriage services temporarily.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 09:33:40 AM by RedwizardD »

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2018, 09:57:58 AM »
Too often I see this perception the way to "fix" something is to make things more difficult (re-firing traps *cough*), when difficulty will always impact low levels more than high. For example, the ferry costs are a minor nuisance to high levels, but low levels can actually find them kind of prohibitive.

If you had asked me why OOCly the travel from the Mist Camp to Vallaki was so long and arduous, I would have guessed the intent was to discourage newbies from moving out of Vallaki too quickly, rather than discourage high levels from returning :D

Because, yeah, it does make it just as likely high levels won't want to travel away as that they will hesitate to return.

FWIW, I don't care that much about revamping all of this as I'm pretty used to it. I do like the idea of a wrap-around system of some sort similar to the one aprog proposed a while back to make Edrigan connect to Krezk. *That* might actually help cut down on high levels in Vallaki because Vallaki would be less of a necessary crossroads in travelling from one end of the server to the other.

As far as making the journey as interesting as the destination...

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My brain is on autopilot, zoning out while I repeat the motion for the thousandth time.

...I think this is key. Perhaps with EE there will be greater opportunity to add randomness to many elements of this persistent world. Uncertainty would also increase the fear level of the server--especially if the occasional spawn keyed on the level of the PC triggering it.

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ViktorYouFool

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2018, 03:54:33 PM »
(NOT speaking for the Dev team here, just my personal opinion)

A big problem to me is that regardless of the speed, be it fast or slow, any traveling system eases up the possibility of High level characters to return easily to Vallaki. Something we are hard pressed to find a solution to. We wish for high level characters to quit Vallaki at some point and not return (not too often anyway).

Granted this is an issue that goes beyond the traveling system, I'm quite realist that a more complete solution lies in adding content for high level characters that will entice them to stay afar. But linking Vallaki and VoB clearly defeats that purpose. It makes it too easy. Regardless of the time it takes, one could just hop in a wagon, take a break from the game and return, no real hassle, no reason to stay abroad. I'm not advocating removing the caravans, but we need deterrents to that type of travel. I much prefer when players have to work for it to get there and the distance serves as an effective deterrent. I'd move access to the Mist Camp from the Tser Pool to Edrigan, with the Tser Pool caravan taking you only to the Port. This would likely increase the likelyhood of Dementlieu as the High Level hub precisely because traveling back to Vallaki becomes less interesting. The only other deterrent I can think of is to make the price prohibitive.

It's already easy for a high level character to do it, and they are already going to do it regardless. Again, I make a trip from Kburg to Ramulai or Muhar multiple times a day, some days. Certainly a half-dozen times a week, at the least. I've been doing that since level 4. Making the trip an OOC annoyance doesn't discourage anyone, it just means there's another part of the server that is not fun.  Worse, it actively discourages role-play along the trip because of the reality of trying to type while walking/running in NWN.

As long as the outskirts is the defacto hub and marketplace, people are going to run back and forth from other parts of the server to vallaki. The only difference is whether that trip will be an OOC barrier, or something that can actually enhance the role-play on the server. I'd have thought the priority would be on the latter.



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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2018, 04:07:39 PM »
(NOT speaking for the Dev team here, just my personal opinion)

A big problem to me is that regardless of the speed, be it fast or slow, any traveling system eases up the possibility of High level characters to return easily to Vallaki. Something we are hard pressed to find a solution to. We wish for high level characters to quit Vallaki at some point and not return (not too often anyway).

Granted this is an issue that goes beyond the traveling system, I'm quite realist that a more complete solution lies in adding content for high level characters that will entice them to stay afar. But linking Vallaki and VoB clearly defeats that purpose. It makes it too easy. Regardless of the time it takes, one could just hop in a wagon, take a break from the game and return, no real hassle, no reason to stay abroad. I'm not advocating removing the caravans, but we need deterrents to that type of travel. I much prefer when players have to work for it to get there and the distance serves as an effective deterrent. I'd move access to the Mist Camp from the Tser Pool to Edrigan, with the Tser Pool caravan taking you only to the Port. This would likely increase the likelyhood of Dementlieu as the High Level hub precisely because traveling back to Vallaki becomes less interesting. The only other deterrent I can think of is to make the price prohibitive.


I think Aprogressivist and ViktorYouFool have both touched up on two major points as to why that doesn't prohibit High Levels from going to Vallaki. It never realistically has and it never realistically will. Because Vallaki is treated as the center of attention for the server, for individuals who have invested a large amount of time into their character, it is the only real place to go without artificially inhibiting the amount of interaction you receive on the server. I leave my character in Port-a-Lucine for the majority of his time because it makes sense, and sometimes I leave to the Mist Camps to try to find something. But it isn't very fun, and there isn't a whole lot of incentive for me to stay out that way. Even if I was five levels higher than I am now. There's a deathly lack of traffic, there aren't many interesting thing going on except maybe a DM Event, or two, on occasion. There are no real motivators out that way except mechanical and monetary gains, which is the opposite of the goal hoped to be achieved.

Let me give you an example: In Barovia, there are roughly.. What? There's been seven or eight AMPCs running around Barovia since I returned to PoTM about five or six months ago. Many, many of those just in this last month. Whenever Suzy B gets mauled by a Wight, or Mary James gets dominated and/or abused by a Vampire, you immediately invite every Higher-Leveled character from around the server who has a vested interest in that individual to arrive and protect them. Especially Paladins and Clerics that have absolutely no business sitting around in Vallaki because they can easily destroy any AMPC. But, because they may have a vested interest in these individuals, they are forced to see it dealt with because it is the only genuine conflict they have without 'pretending' to have others. It just doesn't make sense that your.. Level 18 Paladin with fully enchanted gear, custom items, and grandfathered basketballs' girlfriend, or friend of a girlfriend, or character that has some relation to them, becomes victimized in one of many recent ways in Barovia, and you just sit abroad and say, "Sorry, I'm uh. Staring at this wall, because this is where I belong."

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, there is a lot more conflict and interest going on in Barovia right now, than just about anywhere else short of DM-based Life Support, so making it difficult to RP while travelling isn't deterring anyone and it never has. What it is doing is discouraging RP instead of encouraging it to flourish in an environment that could more easily support it.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 04:09:37 PM by BraveSirRobin »

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2018, 04:16:32 PM »
(NOT speaking for the Dev team here, just my personal opinion)

A big problem to me is that regardless of the speed, be it fast or slow, any traveling system eases up the possibility of High level characters to return easily to Vallaki. Something we are hard pressed to find a solution to. We wish for high level characters to quit Vallaki at some point and not return (not too often anyway).

Granted this is an issue that goes beyond the traveling system, I'm quite realist that a more complete solution lies in adding content for high level characters that will entice them to stay afar. But linking Vallaki and VoB clearly defeats that purpose. It makes it too easy. Regardless of the time it takes, one could just hop in a wagon, take a break from the game and return, no real hassle, no reason to stay abroad. I'm not advocating removing the caravans, but we need deterrents to that type of travel. I much prefer when players have to work for it to get there and the distance serves as an effective deterrent. I'd move access to the Mist Camp from the Tser Pool to Edrigan, with the Tser Pool caravan taking you only to the Port. This would likely increase the likelyhood of Dementlieu as the High Level hub precisely because traveling back to Vallaki becomes less interesting. The only other deterrent I can think of is to make the price prohibitive.


I think Aprogressivist and ViktorYouFool have both touched up on two major points as to why that doesn't prohibit High Levels from going to Vallaki. It never realistically has and it never realistically will. Because Vallaki is treated as the center of attention for the server, for individuals who have invested a large amount of time into their character, it is the only real place to go without artificially inhibiting the amount of interaction you receive on the server. I leave my character in Port-a-Lucine for the majority of his time because it makes sense, and sometimes I leave to the Mist Camps to try to find something. But it isn't very fun, and there isn't a whole lot of incentive for me to stay out that way. Even if I was five levels higher than I am now. There's a deathly lack of traffic, there aren't many interesting thing going on except maybe a DM Event, or two, on occasion. There are no real motivators out that way except mechanical and monetary gains, which is the opposite of the goal hoped to be achieved.

Let me give you an example: In Barovia, there are roughly.. What? There's been seven or eight AMPCs running around Barovia since I returned to PoTM about five or six months ago. Many, many of those just in this last month. Whenever Suzy B gets mauled by a Wight, or Mary James gets dominated and/or abused by a Vampire, you immediately invite every Higher-Leveled character from around the server who has a vested interest in that individual to arrive and protect them. Especially Paladins and Clerics that have absolutely no business sitting around in Vallaki because they can easily destroy any AMPC. But, because they may have a vested interest in these individuals, they are forced to see it dealt with because it is the only genuine conflict they have without 'pretending' to have others. It just doesn't make sense that your.. Level 18 Paladin with fully enchanted gear, custom items, and grandfathered basketballs' girlfriend, or friend of a girlfriend, or character that has some relation to them, becomes victimized in one of many recent ways in Barovia, and you just sit abroad and say, "Sorry, I'm uh. Staring at this wall, because this is where I belong."

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, there is a lot more conflict and interest going on in Barovia right now, than just about anywhere else short of DM-based Life Support, so making it difficult to RP while travelling isn't deterring anyone and it never has. What it is doing is discouraging RP instead of encouraging it to flourish in an environment that could more easily support it.

This is an interesting point as well. The concentration of players in vallaki means the concentration of MPCs will be there (and barovia as a whole is massive compared to our other domains in game, meaning they have more possible haunts (in theory)). Which in turn means more players are around gawking at the monsters. This is both overwhelming for newer characters (I personally have seen times where there are anywhere from zero to six mpcs in the same tiny stretch of land around vallaki) and undercuts the value of each individual monster.

If we're trying to force things to spread out more, Maybe we should have a mandate on how many mpcs can be in a given place too.

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2018, 06:10:21 PM »
I know for a few years now we've been trying to kick the high levels away from the outskirts hub. My oppinion might be kinda uneducated but...

The server has way too many areas for its population and trying to force spreading them to different areas or alt-jumping to find people to rp is not necessarily the best idea.

Isn't it alot more difficult to try to sustain role play in areas you hope someone logs on instead of knowing people will be there? I think that's why everyone eventually returns to the hub: it's usually lonely away from it unless you are into alt-ing.

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2018, 08:37:10 PM »
Being so reliant on Vallaki does make getting banished or exiled from it pretty sucktastic but... Well... I think if you want higher levels out of there a better way to do that would be have the full complement of crafting stations in some of the other domains which are currently lacking.

There is a way to make less safe travel if you have a mechanic where caravans get held up by bandits every so often probability wise which would add to the uncertainty, maybe but the transition during travel is kind of a nice pause and losing the interlude would make role play kind of... Just... Meh...

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2018, 02:28:22 AM »
I'll second any notion that makes traveling between VoB and Vallaki less of a chore. Wasting twenty minutes taking a caravan, running across the world, and eventually ending up in turnip town is one of the things I dread most playing this game — and it's not related to level range, because having to go the opposite direction for any reason is equally dreadful. Level 2 to go do some evil roleplay in Hazlan, level 6 to go visit a perfume seller in Dementlieuse, level 14 to go gather Fey Leaves in the spring, you name it.

I also agree with the notion that it is strange to consider the journey a barrier to high level characters rather than low level ones. A third-level wizard will make the entire trip either way without fear while half-asleep, barring walking ghost stags' fear aura.  A tenth-level character of any class will either invisibly run through hasted, or left-click their way across the landscape while the world poses them no real danger. Increasing the threat on the road just continues to tie low-levels to Vallaki, which will continue to cause high-levels to gravitate to it because most faction roleplay happens there, and crafting is built upon that realm with inadequate support in others.

Lack of any way to circumvent this run will not stop people from moving place to place to do roleplay. It currently doesn't. In fact, when I want to get back to Vallaki to do roleplay I'll often go straight through the mists because it's faster than waiting for a caravan.

Take a player like ViktorYouFool who has to make this run 3-4 times a day due to faction roleplay being split across locales. I don't think anyone's experience is being added to by having him spend an hour — of his real life, non-refundable time — running back and forth between Vallaki and the Tser Pool. And I say an hour rather than an hour and a half because that character knows haste. This doesn't contribute to anyone's immersion.

There is a way to make less safe travel if you have a mechanic where caravans get held up by bandits every so often probability wise which would add to the uncertainty...

In regards to this, this would make little immersive sense because caravan rides are currently through the Mistways, and bandits won't stalk those roads.

Perhaps with EE there will be greater opportunity to add randomness to many elements of this persistent world. Uncertainty would also increase the fear level of the server--especially if the occasional spawn keyed on the level of the PC triggering it.

Also not very immersive, given Barovia is a classically level 1-10 realm in a PnP perspective and nothing in that level range will challenge a high level character — and shouldn't, there are other realms for that.

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2018, 09:14:23 AM »
Increasing the threat on the road just continues to tie low-levels to Vallaki, which will continue to cause high-levels to gravitate to it because most faction roleplay happens there, and crafting is built upon that realm with inadequate support in others.

This. I think this is actually, realistically, the root cause of everyone always being in vallaki. You are pinned in place, made to put down roots and invest here.. and then told rather arbitrarily 'you're too tall now, get out'. Characters who are rooted in OTHER domains on a more permanent basis? I think they often end up in those domains at lower levels when they become invested there.

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2018, 12:26:51 PM »
I would rather see the current ferry system expanded to be more like the wagon ride. Since that system is already in place, it should be very easy to implement.

For some of the other things brought up I agree whole heartily! there is way too much mindless auto-pilot areas throughout Barovia, Dementileu, and Hazlan, that could use a major change/upgrade.

For what Mab said, about deterring high levels from going back to Vallaki areas-
1st: upgrade the other domains to be viable base PC locations. That means crafting resource as well as dungeons. For instance Hazlan has 2 major dungeons, a forest rebel base, and a few woodland spawns. In contrast, Vallaki areas have- at least 8 major dungeons, a bunch of smaller ones, as well as extra villages and surrounding woods, mountains, farmlands, and roadways.
2nd: Place a level check on the Vistani that sells the elixir to get through the choking fog conversation that will only allow the elixir to be sold to level 8 and under PCs. Make the elixir non-drop/non-transferable. Now this make the VOB the high level/low level interaction point in Barovia. I know several players won't like this idea, but high-levels tend to make Vallaki very non-threatening for low levels. This will also make the Vallaki side of the pass a on-going new character event.

3rd. Open the lord of domain areas, like castle Ravenloft, for 19-20th level characters to try for their ending-perm death event. Make traveling through the mist at those levels a possibility that you end up in one of those locations.


3rd. 

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2018, 01:13:43 PM »
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Also not very immersive, given Barovia is a classically level 1-10 realm in a PnP perspective and nothing in that level range will challenge a high level character — and shouldn't, there are other realms for that.

My suggestion was to deal with the monotony of the travel ViktorYouFool described, because these places are actually areas in the module that everyone sees as simply something to traverse as quickly as possible. If a chance existed for danger--including XP and treasure--we would view them as no more monotonous than any other area on the server. (Conversely, if everyone is going to use fast travel to avoid them, why have them at all?)

Would you argue that a DM should not drop a high-level monster there because it would be immersion-breaking? Or an MPC such as the current mummy can't be in the Outskirts for the same reason? DMs have, in fact, rattled the Western Outskirts in the past even, so as to drive high levels inside.

Moreover, monsters don't have to be as high level to be a danger when players don't know ahead of time they will be there. The spawn of greater worgs and their packmates in the Rolling Hills is dangerous enough that most PCs go around it, rather than take the time to buff and fight it because fighting it unbuffed will certainly maul most. I suspect the alpha pack leaders or whatever they're called near Krezk (also in Barovia) are similar meat grinders.

In any case, predictability and lack of challenge is what makes these areas uninteresting and something to blow through. If EE allows developers more ability to create randomness, *all* the areas on the server can be made more challenging and difficult, even to experienced players.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 01:16:13 PM by Iridni Ren »

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ViktorYouFool

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2018, 01:51:49 PM »
Quote
Also not very immersive, given Barovia is a classically level 1-10 realm in a PnP perspective and nothing in that level range will challenge a high level character — and shouldn't, there are other realms for that.

My suggestion was to deal with the monotony of the travel ViktorYouFool described, because these places are actually areas in the module that everyone sees as simply something to traverse as quickly as possible. If a chance existed for danger--including XP and treasure--we would view them as no more monotonous than any other area on the server. (Conversely, if everyone is going to use fast travel to avoid them, why have them at all?)

Would you argue that a DM should not drop a high-level monster there because it would be immersion-breaking? Or an MPC such as the current mummy can't be in the Outskirts for the same reason? DMs have, in fact, rattled the Western Outskirts in the past even, so as to drive high levels inside.

Moreover, monsters don't have to be as high level to be a danger when players don't know ahead of time they will be there. The spawn of greater worgs and their packmates in the Rolling Hills is dangerous enough that most PCs go around it, rather than take the time to buff and fight it because fighting it unbuffed will certainly maul most. I suspect the alpha pack leaders or whatever they're called near Krezk (also in Barovia) are similar meat grinders.

In any case, predictability and lack of challenge is what makes these areas uninteresting and something to blow through. If EE allows developers more ability to create randomness, *all* the areas on the server can be made more challenging and difficult, even to experienced players.

Unless you're going to make the creatures between have see-invis _and_ run fast enough to catch hasted characters, characters like mine still aren't going to care and the primary reason we won't care is because we aren't on the road to see the sights. We're making the trip because the nature of the server is that no matter what else we might try to go do, vallaki is still the primary hub of role-play and commerce. Thus, our options are:
A) Never leave vallaki no matter how high level we are
B) Resign ourselves to some other portion of the server and then just simply not play when no one is around to play with in our neck of the woods
C) Regularly make that run, ignoring the content between regardless of what it is because that's not why we're taking the bloody road for the thousandth time.

I haven't asked for more to do, or area upgrades. I haven't asked for a faster way to travel or to bypass the need to travel. The only bit that I've suggested is that if I'm already consigning myself to spending a fifteen minute trip every time I need to cross Barovia that I be able to do so in a way that is more conducive to actually role-playing with the people with whom I'm making that trip. Trying to carry on a conversation while running across however many map transitions is awful enough that most people don't try it. By contrast, caravan RP happens all the time.

Making the trip more OOC obnoxious and less easy to role-play enhances the experience for no one.



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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2018, 02:21:23 PM »
RP at the end of the day is the actually important thing on the server. Please implement features to better facilitate that aspect for the majority of players. Like the op's suggested caravan.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2018, 02:23:04 PM »
Making the trip more OOC obnoxious and less easy to role-play enhances the experience for no one.

I have not suggested anything OOC.

In point of fact it is OOC that the areas remain static and that people know OOC from previous journeys (and in many cases previous PCs) exactly where spawn triggers are.

Your PC sounds atypical in that he spends more time running back and forth than others, but I don't think you should universalize that. It would certainly enhance the experience for me, at least, if these areas resembled other areas in the server that we would call "interesting." Note what you first said (and what I was responding to):

Quote
The road between Vallaki and the Tser pool might have been interesting to explore and tinker with the first little while...

Why isn't it "interesting to explore and tinker" with now? Because it's so predictable.

I'm not arguing against you at all. I'm saying that there are three ways to go forward:

1) Do nothing.

2) Create ways to bypass these uninteresting areas.

3) Make these areas more interesting.

If most everyone wants to skip these places, then why have them in the module at all?

For PCs like yours that care only about the destination and the journey is a tedium, the bypass works. But there is nothing wrong, either, with making the areas more interesting, challenging, and rewarding to traverse. I'm suggesting a way of doing that, as opposed to offering a way that PCs can ignore them entirely.

ETA: My response is also influenced by MAB's argument as to the purpose these areas are supposed to serve.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2018, 02:26:04 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2018, 03:34:48 PM »
Your PC sounds atypical in that he spends more time running back and forth than others, but I don't think you should universalize that. It would certainly enhance the experience for me, at least, if these areas resembled other areas in the server that we would call "interesting."

The abnormality is high level characters that don't run back and forth often, not the opposite, sorry.

1) Do nothing.

2) Create ways to bypass these uninteresting areas.

3) Make these areas more interesting.

I think that 2 needs to come, and then 3. It's a swathe of mostly unused real estate and otherwise wasted server resources at the moment. The less the server has to load all the animals on these maps as people rush from transition to transition, the better.

That said, 3 has a great amount of potential due to this same unused real estate, so 2 can serve as a foundation for 3. If there were a way to slowly bypass this terrain, most players would, because most of the interesting activity lies west of Vallaki and east of the Village of Barovia, and nowhere inbetween.

When I visit the random caves, the haunted house, the ogre cave, etc... they are invariably max spawn, which is great for my pockets but a sign of general disinterest for the environment here. I would bet gold that 60% of the players on this server don't even know that there's dungeons in the farmland East of Vallaki...

Quote
Would you argue that a DM should not drop a high-level monster there because it would be immersion-breaking? Or an MPC such as the current mummy can't be in the Outskirts for the same reason? DMs have, in fact, rattled the Western Outskirts in the past even, so as to drive high levels inside.

I actually would; carpet bombing the outskirts with instant death poison, causing earthquakes, or spawning mega alpha werewolf lords to send high level characters indoors also isn't immersive, because Barovia simply shouldn't be a domain sundered by such great powers. Strahd's glorious +2 sword would have issue with such a werewolf. Perhaps I'm in the minority on this regard, but expecting I agree with this sentiment wasn't accurate.

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Re: Suggestion: Vallaki-VoB SLOW Travel System
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2018, 04:03:54 PM »
Most of the time I have seen DM’s spawn in things, it is not due to the presence of high level characters, but because everyone is standing outside at night having a party. Last time I remember someone doing this, the outskirts were swallowed in Mist and Elder Mist Elementals attacked. And you know what? It killed everyone except my Wizard, who went invisible, buffed, never went inside and then proceeded to retrieve everyone. I remember at one point I had Kazir making the trip from Dementlieu to Vallaki three times a day. Cost was not the prohibitive factor, but just for me to take care of all of his plot-related, player-driven RP? I had to invest a significant amount of my personal time in just running back and forth mass-hasting my bodyguards and not role playing.