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Author Topic: Necromancy feats worth?  (Read 8917 times)

Nemesis 24

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #50 on: December 14, 2019, 05:59:53 PM »
Also they 'are' useful for the time they are used for.  Ten rounds of combat, more if you extend.  The trouble is here they are not useful how people 'want' them to be; as a device to make an already solo capable class 'more' solo capable.  In their intended use, with their intended design, they are excellent feats.  People simply want both that and the previous summons capabilities to make summons of insane over-utility. 

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #51 on: December 14, 2019, 08:02:27 PM »
The cognitive dissonance isn't about making the class 'stronger,' because there's already a meta way to do things. The class's power level is already set at that bar -- Whether or not you open opportunities for them to be similarly mechanically successful beyond pursuing the meta is wholly dependent on the cognitive dissonance you're associating how 'overpowered' a class would be. Wizards are supposed to be able to pursue different disciplines. It's part of their roleplay.

There's no reason for a Necromancer to want to do skeletons, whereas there's a reason for a cannibal to consume dead bodies, and a pretty compelling reason, too. There's no reason for you to waste spell slots, when dealing with the meta, when you could be using other, more powerful spells -- And there are people who will call you out IC and OOC for wasting your magic when you're supposed to be enabling the party. So since you can't justify it, like before, nobody will use a summon or the like outside of Roleplay. There are already numerous ways, for numerous classes to circumvent the need for certain other classes, and a caster using summons wouldn't replace, anybody. It would just open a difference discipline for them to pursue that isn't just buffing. Truth is, if you have two Wizards in a party, one of them is pretty useless except for a short battery they might use for one or two spawns. You could always group and Misted Magic + Choking Fog + Evard's some spawns, and that works much better than per se, the traditional MAGIC MISSILE, MAGIC MISSILE, FIREBALL!

Either way, it's apparent this isn't the desire of the administration to pursue per EO's post, so I'm going to let it rest.


Nemesis 24

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2019, 08:13:21 PM »
Eh, my view of this whole thread has been the following-

Wizards and other summoner classes:  Ugh its so BORING doing solo content with misted magic and AOE spells and such, it'd be so much EASIER if I had summons to help out and especially at those lower levels to make it so much simpler.  This is so unfair!  I -deserve- to do all this stuff on my own!

Literally every mundane class, fighter, rogue, barbarian, monk, and even spell capable such as paladin, ranger, etc:  Uh huh.  Sure it is.   :?

BraveSirRobin

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2019, 09:10:05 PM »
Eh, my view of this whole thread has been the following-

Wizards and other summoner classes:  Ugh its so BORING doing solo content with misted magic and AOE spells and such, it'd be so much EASIER if I had summons to help out and especially at those lower levels to make it so much simpler.  This is so unfair!  I -deserve- to do all this stuff on my own!

Literally every mundane class, fighter, rogue, barbarian, monk, and even spell capable such as paladin, ranger, etc:  Uh huh.  Sure it is.   :?

I'm not even arguing that they need to be able to solo things with a summon; I'm not even saying they should extend the durations. But the summons aren't able to perform reasonably when engaging content at their level-appropriate range, which, if you're engaging content at your level-appropriate range, you're electing to forgoe one of 1-3 spell slots (in that tier) to summon a creature, that could otherwise be used to give your party powerful buffs. It's very boring to be a wizard whose only ability to contribute to a party is to be able to buff other characters. It's why I don't like to play them, personally. Sure, they can PvP, and sure, they can with some effort solo specific areas and loot them; But ultimately, you're giving up your class abilities to other characters, so they can shine -- And it's so heavily expected of you that there is a stigma otherwise. I've greatly enjoyed Bard, Paladin, and even Ranger for that reason. They aren't under such pressure, and they either have more interactive rolls within a party, or the flexibility to do multiple rolls. Wizards, do not, even if they can cheese it a bit to gas out rooms.

The Summon isn't replacing a party member. It's just a surrogate to allow the Wizard/Sorcerer to do DPS alongside more or less every other class in the game, instead of being a glorified buffing battery.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2019, 09:30:12 PM »
The Summon isn't replacing a party member. It's just a surrogate to allow the Wizard/Sorcerer to do DPS alongside more or less every other class in the game, instead of being a glorified buffing battery.

Umm...the definition of surrogate is "one put in place of another."

Perhaps rogues should be buffed so they can DPS alongside frontliners, instead of being glorified trap handlers and lock pickers.

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Kamfrenchie

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #55 on: December 15, 2019, 06:59:44 AM »
Well rogue can do dps, just not against most foes present in this server due to sneak attacks immunity of undeads in this edition. The amount of skill points and skills available, inculding umd, gives them some more options at the cost of coins.

I feel the wizard , clerics and druid problem is that there are so many buffs, and you want almost all of them all the time, so you indeed go buffbot.

As for the summons.... well, unless you get DP points quickly, i can see it being a problem if they are too weak  or short duration, considering that necromancy is supposed to be stronger, and that it will make you a target once people know.

It s a bit like becoming a mpc with none of the stat benefits i guess.

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #56 on: December 15, 2019, 08:35:30 AM »
My argument, BSR made for me. Necromancers aren't gonna use necromancy spells because they're too weak to do anything other than paint a big ol' target on them saying 'look at me, I'm a necromancer'. Which shuts down an insanely popular evil rp route that is supposed to thrive in the Demiplane of Dread.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2019, 08:46:42 AM »
I'd argue they're not going to use them wastefully or foolishly, rather than simply not use them, which 'is' in fact entirely appropriate for the demiplane of dread, where the commonplace hates and loathes because of outright fear of it and all it does.

If you mean they cannot use them openly, blatantly, and strutting around the local population with a cadre of empowered undead summons, then yes.  They're not.  Unless they're a dark lord.  Which players aren't.

LivingWasteland

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2019, 08:49:37 AM »
They aren't going to use them, period. There is zero reason to paint a massive PVP target on your back while using a feat that screams 'Hey, I'm mechanically weak because I took this flavor feat'.

Alan Hunter

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2019, 10:27:34 AM »
Does anyone wish to argue that caster classes are insufficiently strong?

Because making summons stronger makes caster classes stronger. Full stop.

Summons are available for those who want to use them to flavor their PCs or otherwise employ them for RP. If they aren't that powerful for combat, casting classes have plenty of other tools in their toolkit.

Cheer up: Mundanes think Antagonize needs buffing too :D

Seems only the constant, popular, veteran, and council members seem to have retorts in these suggestion posts that are mundane. I mean its a thread for suggestions.  What's the point of offering a suggestion thread if immediately 80% of the replies are deconstructive comments often with no singular constructive criticism arguement in attempt to help the OP in the first place. In hindsight most these people who post don't have the experience or knowldge as some do. Even on occasion the Wiki of POTM is vague with out mechanical understanding which I know is to avoid certain meta circumstances but not many grasp that. Hence people make these suggestions in a hopes to offer or ask for a quality of improvement for the game they enjoy. Is that wrong? I am not saying everybody be care bears and hug but lets recall that for those who been here long you were new once too.
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Kamfrenchie

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #60 on: December 15, 2019, 10:31:37 AM »
I'd argue they're not going to use them wastefully or foolishly, rather than simply not use them, which 'is' in fact entirely appropriate for the demiplane of dread, where the commonplace hates and loathes because of outright fear of it and all it does.

If you mean they cannot use them openly, blatantly, and strutting around the local population with a cadre of empowered undead summons, then yes.  They're not.  Unless they're a dark lord.  Which players aren't.

In what kind of situation would they use them ? You cant say for sure that other player wont go red is dead as soon as they see the necromancer. So summoning one if you re confronted wont be much use compared to any offensive spells. So the only point to have these summons would be to reveal the necromancer as what he is, or play the ampc without being one.

Werewolves and vampires can show up as what they are because of their advantages...

Nemesis 24

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #61 on: December 15, 2019, 10:50:56 AM »
I'd argue they're not going to use them wastefully or foolishly, rather than simply not use them, which 'is' in fact entirely appropriate for the demiplane of dread, where the commonplace hates and loathes because of outright fear of it and all it does.

If you mean they cannot use them openly, blatantly, and strutting around the local population with a cadre of empowered undead summons, then yes.  They're not.  Unless they're a dark lord.  Which players aren't.

In what kind of situation would they use them ? You cant say for sure that other player wont go red is dead as soon as they see the necromancer. So summoning one if you re confronted wont be much use compared to any offensive spells. So the only point to have these summons would be to reveal the necromancer as what he is, or play the ampc without being one.

Werewolves and vampires can show up as what they are because of their advantages...


Simply put, the same as absolutely everyone else engaging in high stakes, high risk roleplay.  Same as every assassin, as every murderer or thief, every rebel, ever person who wants to be an antagonist to the rest of the server as a necromancer should realistically expect themselves to be.  Amongst trusted allies.  See - the Red Academy, and the students of necromancy which while there were players involved completely thrived.   It was a school of magic and necromancy and was able to operate practically unimpeded because the people doing so were, to put it bluntly, not stupid about it.

If a person playing a necromancy -doesn't- want to be an antagonist to much of the server, I can simply say, bad luck?  Not going to fly, if you want every other person to change how they play their character and how they choose to react to it, I have some really earth shattering news - you can't do that, and they can react any way they please.  In other words, just like every other bad guy (and you are, end of story, no subjective arguments) you need to play smart or be dead.

EDIT:  If you want to be a necromancer, if you want to pursue it, be smart about it.  Work out of the drain, consider the red academy, play it careful.  You can get there if you try, even if you have to create something yourself.  Just understand that people will try and kill you and eventually, if you are not smart and/or lucky all the time, they will.

As for this comment

Does anyone wish to argue that caster classes are insufficiently strong?

Because making summons stronger makes caster classes stronger. Full stop.

Summons are available for those who want to use them to flavor their PCs or otherwise employ them for RP. If they aren't that powerful for combat, casting classes have plenty of other tools in their toolkit.

Cheer up: Mundanes think Antagonize needs buffing too :D

Seems only the constant, popular, veteran, and council members seem to have retorts in these suggestion posts that are mundane. I mean its a thread for suggestions.  What's the point of offering a suggestion thread if immediately 80% of the replies are deconstructive comments often with no singular constructive criticism arguement in attempt to help the OP in the first place. In hindsight most these people who post don't have the experience or knowldge as some do. Even on occasion the Wiki of POTM is vague with out mechanical understanding which I know is to avoid certain meta circumstances but not many grasp that. Hence people make these suggestions in a hopes to offer or ask for a quality of improvement for the game they enjoy. Is that wrong? I am not saying everybody be care bears and hug but lets recall that for those who been here long you were new once too.

The people who are disagreeing and denying are the people who, unlike those you speak of, -do- grasp the mechanical, meta, and other intricacies of what is being asked for and that is why they're saying no.  Those no's might be blunt, but if they are emphatic it is because of a very good reason.  There is in quite a few instances no real wiggle room without upsetting balances that are already extremely precarious.   Personally?  I've found many requests for power boosts outright disingenuous grabbing for more mechanical power, seemingly deliberately ignoring the imbalance issues they would create and trying to sell only the positives which frankly, are personal gain most of the time.  I was in sales for a very long time, I know when someone is trying to sell something that they know isn't quite right.  I admit I might be wrong about that, because this 'is' a typed medium, and if so I do apologise.  But the backhanded attack on server veterans aside and the clear resentment of them ignored for now, if you want to suggest changes and balances, suggest things that work to affect players in a party or as a whole, and target actually agreed upon weaker classes and issues, rather than trying to push for already overpowered things to be made even more so.  Its just unreasonable.

Look instead at how fighters could be diversified, to support a group.  Look at how they could be made stronger as an individual, without invalidating other classes.  Consider the full repertoire of the server on offer, of multiclassing, of potions and crafting, of alchemy.  The full flexibility of a class, what its strengths are, what its weaknesses are, what already exists to overcome them.  There is a staggering repertoire of these things that have been implemented for the server, for this exact purpose.  If you are not familiar with them, rest assured the people who are disapproving of your suggestions are, and understand what such suggestions would in fact actually create.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 10:52:59 AM by Nemesis 24 »

Alan Hunter

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #62 on: December 15, 2019, 11:23:38 AM »
I'd argue they're not going to use them wastefully or foolishly, rather than simply not use them, which 'is' in fact entirely appropriate for the demiplane of dread, where the commonplace hates and loathes because of outright fear of it and all it does.

If you mean they cannot use them openly, blatantly, and strutting around the local population with a cadre of empowered undead summons, then yes.  They're not.  Unless they're a dark lord.  Which players aren't.

In what kind of situation would they use them ? You cant say for sure that other player wont go red is dead as soon as they see the necromancer. So summoning one if you re confronted wont be much use compared to any offensive spells. So the only point to have these summons would be to reveal the necromancer as what he is, or play the ampc without being one.

Werewolves and vampires can show up as what they are because of their advantages...


Simply put, the same as absolutely everyone else engaging in high stakes, high risk roleplay.  Same as every assassin, as every murderer or thief, every rebel, ever person who wants to be an antagonist to the rest of the server as a necromancer should realistically expect themselves to be.  Amongst trusted allies.  See - the Red Academy, and the students of necromancy which while there were players involved completely thrived.   It was a school of magic and necromancy and was able to operate practically unimpeded because the people doing so were, to put it bluntly, not stupid about it.

If a person playing a necromancy -doesn't- want to be an antagonist to much of the server, I can simply say, bad luck?  Not going to fly, if you want every other person to change how they play their character and how they choose to react to it, I have some really earth shattering news - you can't do that, and they can react any way they please.  In other words, just like every other bad guy (and you are, end of story, no subjective arguments) you need to play smart or be dead.

EDIT:  If you want to be a necromancer, if you want to pursue it, be smart about it.  Work out of the drain, consider the red academy, play it careful.  You can get there if you try, even if you have to create something yourself.  Just understand that people will try and kill you and eventually, if you are not smart and/or lucky all the time, they will.

As for this comment

Does anyone wish to argue that caster classes are insufficiently strong?

Because making summons stronger makes caster classes stronger. Full stop.

Summons are available for those who want to use them to flavor their PCs or otherwise employ them for RP. If they aren't that powerful for combat, casting classes have plenty of other tools in their toolkit.

Cheer up: Mundanes think Antagonize needs buffing too :D

Seems only the constant, popular, veteran, and council members seem to have retorts in these suggestion posts that are mundane. I mean its a thread for suggestions.  What's the point of offering a suggestion thread if immediately 80% of the replies are deconstructive comments often with no singular constructive criticism arguement in attempt to help the OP in the first place. In hindsight most these people who post don't have the experience or knowldge as some do. Even on occasion the Wiki of POTM is vague with out mechanical understanding which I know is to avoid certain meta circumstances but not many grasp that. Hence people make these suggestions in a hopes to offer or ask for a quality of improvement for the game they enjoy. Is that wrong? I am not saying everybody be care bears and hug but lets recall that for those who been here long you were new once too.

The people who are disagreeing and denying are the people who, unlike those you speak of, -do- grasp the mechanical, meta, and other intricacies of what is being asked for and that is why they're saying no.  Those no's might be blunt, but if they are emphatic it is because of a very good reason.  There is in quite a few instances no real wiggle room without upsetting balances that are already extremely precarious.   Personally?  I've found many requests for power boosts outright disingenuous grabbing for more mechanical power, seemingly deliberately ignoring the imbalance issues they would create and trying to sell only the positives which frankly, are personal gain most of the time.  I was in sales for a very long time, I know when someone is trying to sell something that they know isn't quite right.  I admit I might be wrong about that, because this 'is' a typed medium, and if so I do apologise.  But the backhanded attack on server veterans aside and the clear resentment of them ignored for now, if you want to suggest changes and balances, suggest things that work to affect players in a party or as a whole, and target actually agreed upon weaker classes and issues, rather than trying to push for already overpowered things to be made even more so.  Its just unreasonable.

Look instead at how fighters could be diversified, to support a group.  Look at how they could be made stronger as an individual, without invalidating other classes.  Consider the full repertoire of the server on offer, of multiclassing, of potions and crafting, of alchemy.  The full flexibility of a class, what its strengths are, what its weaknesses are, what already exists to overcome them.  There is a staggering repertoire of these things that have been implemented for the server, for this exact purpose.  If you are not familiar with them, rest assured the people who are disapproving of your suggestions are, and understand what such suggestions would in fact actually create.

If they grasp so well why the need for such deconstructive opinions? I mean clearly if they are so experienced they could have offered the right experience to the suggestion. Then in their "No" why couldn't they have explain as you just had now? Having been in sales myself I understand that precarious view to avoid a hustle. But, I also know when to listen to a customer and offer a solution in a good way even if they may not agree its to their ends.

Apologies if you feel my gesture is a backhand to veterans I mean I'm one myself in a way though I'm  not seen as one.

So how do you know there unreasonable requests? What justifies you to believe or consider them unreasonable requests? Are you staff or developer? What validates these people you are defending as validly knowledgable to the server and your suggestions? How would the common player know that? Its not unreasonable to make a suggestion sure its hard when the individual is unknowledgable but its not unreasonable its actually quite human.

I find it warming your last paragraph this is knowledge most common folk do not know. Nor most common posters would considered. These are things that should be said and done to further value the quality od our community.

Lastly to clarify. If you or others feel targeted by my statement restassured it was not an attempt to baclhand or show resentment. Its not my behavior to give resentment its a wasted tging for me for those only deserving. Not just some people on a forum bored I hardly know.

I don't consider myaelf a veteran jor do some but I've been here awhile. Not as long as some  longer than some.

Unlike those you speak of some people generally wish to make improvement for the game I don't think everyone is out to do so themselves. But, overall thank you for your input and for ignoring my backhand and resentment it wasn't my intent. I would add something constructive to the topic but your earlier quote was adequate in explainig.
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Kamfrenchie

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #63 on: December 15, 2019, 12:01:00 PM »
Nemesis, i think we all understand that necromancers need to be smart about it. We're arguing they have a terrible tool. If you want to assassinate someone as any class, you can follow them invisible or camoflaged, ward and attack them when they're isolated, and that is fairly straightforward, with a decent chance of success with good preparation. All of the classes have somethingthat work in it, and being a necromancer doesn't really help

In fact it doesn't offer up anything that helps more.



"Be smart about it" can honestly be applied to any situation even if that's not the point.
Let's say i gave everyone a permanent minus 10 on AB, and then when people complained about it, and asked how they were supposed to progress. I could also say "be smart about it"


If you're only ever using undeads in hidden places where no one good will see or object to it, then the spell doesn't have much use in any other situation, and is rather pointless.


We're very much arguing that undead summons are way to weak to justify ever using them in any scenario that could involve fighting or even tension.. and in that case, are they only ever meant as atmospheric spells ?







Iridni Ren

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #64 on: December 15, 2019, 01:17:45 PM »
We're very much arguing that undead summons are way to weak to justify ever using them in any scenario that could involve fighting or even tension.. and in that case, are they only ever meant as atmospheric spells ?

Guess so.

Clerics have a 9th level summons spell, and I've never used it either.

If people want to use summons for RP reasons, they can. They last, what, 24 hours, outside of combat? That's plenty of time to do all the conjuration or necromancer RP you want with a summon. In combat though, they have a short duration, which is fine, because they shouldn't replace a party member.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 01:19:50 PM by Iridni Ren »

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BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #65 on: December 16, 2019, 02:35:28 PM »
I'd like to point out, as a necromancy enthusiast, that the vast majority of the undead summons on the server are hot garbage if you're a wizard/palemaster. Animate Dead is pretty okay after the Tyrantfog Zombie.

Create Undead, an 8th circle wizard/sorc spell, will create a spectre with 18 AC and 55 hp, +7 ab and a 1d8+2 creature weapon. In essence, you are spending a valuable 8th circle spell to create a level 4 fighter with a longsword.

A level 10 palemaster (Level 15+ wizard/palemaster) will get access to the Vampire Rogue, which isn't bad but is also pretty much only a staple of the Terg Ruins. 21 AC, 80 hp, +10/+5 ab, 1d6 weapon.  The big bonus is that vampires are durable, but the duration makes that feature kinda pointless. I think the scaling on the server was changed a while back to give palemasters access to higher level summons than that, but strangely they get worse as your level improves. The next ones are the Greater Bodak (17 AC, 71 hp, +8 ab, 1d10+2 creature weapon) and the Ghoul King (16 AC, 140 HP, +8/+3 ab, d4, d6, d10 creature weapons).

Compare all of the above with the Helmed Horror that Mordenkainen's Sword summons as a 7th circle spell:

24 AC, 104 hp, +19/+14/+9 AB, 2d6+10 slashing + 5 fire damage (+2 weapon).

Create Greater Undead is only available to Clerics, and is actually pretty decent, but nobody's ever worried about clerics soloing everything, just wizards for some reason.

I think, in regards to Undead summons at least, the team should get rid of the durations on them. The summons themselves are largely useless and will require both feats and a massive spell investment to make them viable, and anyone seen walking around with a ghoul or a spectre is immediately going to make themselves a target for the good guys to beat up.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 02:43:37 PM by BahamutZ3RO »
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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #66 on: December 16, 2019, 03:13:58 PM »
If the undead summons are going to be that weak, they should be summoned in groups.

 I don't remember if I've posted here or not, but I think necromancers who have hordes of undead minions are way more interesting than guys who go around melting peoples' faces off with red beams of energy. You can do that already with blue beams of energy as a completely normal wizard without ever touching a black grimoire.
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tylernwn

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #67 on: December 19, 2019, 12:03:40 PM »
Suggestion: Buff end game necromancy summons a little

I would say that the duration of summons is not the issue here. Sure it means that buffing them is not super useful, but they work fine as one shots. I understand the choice to implement summons like this, and honestly its fine and works.

The main problem is that the undead summons from the higher level summoning spells are very weak. The summons created by Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are not very useful even at the level they are unlocked. I think buffing all the summons that appear in these two spells would help a lot.

Here are two simple suggestions. For all the summons in Create Undeand and Create Greater Undead, modify them with:

1. +2 hit dice.  So increase their class level by 2.
or
2. +2 con +2 str +2 dex. So Increase their attributes a little.

I can't imagine this breaking anything, but it would make these creatures incrementally more usefull. I advocate the first suggestion more since I think it fits the bill better. A lot of these higher level summons have very low HD, for example the specter.

Edit:
Yes I know about corpse crafter. I am talking about a modification on top of everything that we already available.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 12:59:11 PM by tylernwn1991 »

Iridni Ren

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #68 on: December 19, 2019, 12:52:56 PM »
Suggestion: Buff end game necromancy summons a little

I would say that the duration of summons is not the issue here. Sure it means that buffing them is not super useful, but they work fine as one shots. I understand the choice to implement summons like this, and honestly its fine and works.

The main problem is that the undead summons from the higher level summoning spells are very weak. The summons created by Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are not very useful even at the level they are unlocked. I think buffing all the summons that appear in these two spells would help a lot.

Here are two simple suggestions. For all the summons in Create Undeand and Create Greater Undead, modify them with:

1. +2 hit dice.  So increase their class level by 2.
or
2. +2 con +2 str +2 dex. So Increase their attributes a little.

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Corpsecrafter


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tylernwn

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2019, 12:56:02 PM »
Suggestion: Buff end game necromancy summons a little

I would say that the duration of summons is not the issue here. Sure it means that buffing them is not super useful, but they work fine as one shots. I understand the choice to implement summons like this, and honestly its fine and works.

The main problem is that the undead summons from the higher level summoning spells are very weak. The summons created by Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are not very useful even at the level they are unlocked. I think buffing all the summons that appear in these two spells would help a lot.

Here are two simple suggestions. For all the summons in Create Undeand and Create Greater Undead, modify them with:

1. +2 hit dice.  So increase their class level by 2.
or
2. +2 con +2 str +2 dex. So Increase their attributes a little.

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Corpsecrafter

I already know about this feat.

I am advocating a modification in addition to everything that we already have. And only for the summons appearing in these two spells.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 12:57:56 PM by tylernwn1991 »

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2019, 01:03:14 PM »
Spoiler: show
Suggestion: Buff end game necromancy summons a little

I would say that the duration of summons is not the issue here. Sure it means that buffing them is not super useful, but they work fine as one shots. I understand the choice to implement summons like this, and honestly its fine and works.

The main problem is that the undead summons from the higher level summoning spells are very weak. The summons created by Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are not very useful even at the level they are unlocked. I think buffing all the summons that appear in these two spells would help a lot.

Here are two simple suggestions. For all the summons in Create Undeand and Create Greater Undead, modify them with:

1. +2 hit dice.  So increase their class level by 2.
or
2. +2 con +2 str +2 dex. So Increase their attributes a little.

https://nwnravenloft.fandom.com/wiki/Corpsecrafter


I already know about this feat.

I am advocating a modification in addition to everything that we already have. So a +2 buff all around, AND you can take Corpse Crafter to further improve the summons if you want.

Understood. But then as I have said before, what you are asking for is a buff to casters.

If someone wants to RP a hardcore, summons-based Necromancer for RP purposes, the feats exist to allow the Summons to be boosted and made more powerful. It requires the caster, however, to forego some other options.

Casting classes are *not* weak, regardless of whether some spells are not as strong as others.

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2019, 03:25:10 PM »
Not once has anyone said 'Oh, casters are weak. We should buff them.' I don't know why you keep repeating that they aren't when nobody says they are.

What we're saying is anyone that is directly focused on the act of necromancy and raising corpses *is* weak, because the necromancy feats weaken the character in question. And given that being found out as a necromancer has immediately become a PvP target, there are far better feats a caster that may be engaged in pvp could and should take.

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2019, 05:03:10 PM »
So reading all this... I tried to avoid my two cents. Maybe tossing in a quarter here. But in a Gothic Survival Horror surrounded by the mythos of evil, dead, dread, and fear why is Necromancy considered a theme of roleplay than a character choice like paladins which is also themed in roleplay but has powers balancing it due to its limitation of roleplay? Couldn't there be something similarly done to say improve the choice of Necromancy making it as powerful as a class say..... wait I'm looking for D&D books here.... gimme a second you guys love Core Book stuff.... Aha!!! *inserts drum roll*

Dread Necromancer Class found in the Heroes of Horror D&D adaptation base on the Ravenloft 3.5 Book Series. on Pg. 84

Since it's insisted upon that Necromancy is just a theme and the summons are only set to roleplay why not instead encourage an introductory class to all your Necromancy needs beyond the Pale Master with out demi-lichdom!

From the Pages: “Necromancy is not just one school of magic among many. It is an Art, one that requires the Artist’s entire devotion.” —Kazerabet, Angel of the Dark

A specialist wizard who calls himself a necromancer or a cleric with the Death domain has significant power over undead and the forces of negative energy, but a dread necromancer is their true master. A practitioner of vile and forbidden arts, the dread necromancer roots about in graveyards, searching out moldering components for her obscene spells. She calls upon restless, tormented spirits of the dead, seeking their arcane secrets. She might be a consummate villain, or perhaps a tortured hero whose obsession with death leads her along questionable moral paths.


CHAPTER 5 HEROES AND ANTIHEROES pg.85

MAKING A DREAD NECROMANCER A dread necromancer is similar to other arcane spellcasters such as wizards, sorcerers, bards, or war mages. She does not learn spells as quickly as wizards do, nor have access to such a great variety of spells, but she excels at her primary repertoire—necromantic, evil, and fear-related spells. She is a combat caster, with more resilience than a wizard or sorcerer and a definite emphasis on combat-oriented necromantic spells.

Abilities: Charisma determines how powerful a spell a dread necromancer can cast, how many spells she can cast per day, and how hard those spells are to resist. Like a sorcerer or wizard, a dread necromancer benefits from high Dexterity and Constitution scores.

Races: Of the standard races, humans are most likely to become dread necromancers. They seem by nature to be more preoccupied with death than longer-lived races, and hence more apt to drift into a necromantic career. Elf dread necromancers, while rare, are not unknown, and a few half-orcs inherit a morbid interest in death and gore from both sides of their lineage. Among other races, dread necromancers are most common among the githyanki and the drow. The githyanki actually hold dread necromancers in high esteem, while drow society shuns them—more because they dare to worship deities other than Lolth than because of any real revulsion toward them and their practices.

Alignment: Not all dread necromancers are evil, although the best of them could easily be described as evil-tolerant. No dread necromancer can have a good alignment. Performing evil acts is a basic feature of the class, but some dread necromancers manage to balance evil acts with good intentions, remaining solidly neutral (most PC dread necromancers fall into this category).

CLASS FEATURES
Spellcasting is your greatest strength, although your rate of spell acquisition is closer to that of a sorcerer than a wizard.
You make up for slower spellcasting progression with a wide array of special abilities, including a touch attack that uses negative energy to harm your foes. This attack increases in strength and gains additional effects as you gain levels. Because many of your abilities rely on your entering melee, you are proficient with light armor and have the ability to cast your spells while wearing light armor. You also gain a resilience to damage that wizards or sorcerers do not possess.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A dread necromancer is proficient with all simple weapons and with one martial weapon of her choice. Her choice of martial weapon is made when the character takes her first level of dread necromancer and cannot be changed. Dread necromancers are also proficient with light armor, but not with shields. The somatic components required for dread necromancer spells are simple, so members of this class can cast dread necromancer spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. She still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells derived from other classes. In addition, if a dread necromancer wears medium or heavy armor, or uses a shield, she incurs the same chance of arcane spell failure as any other arcane caster if the spell in question has a somatic component (and most do). 

Spellcasting: A dread necromancer casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the dread necromancer’s spell list (see page 87). Like a sorcerer, she can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. When a dread necromancer gains access to a new level of spells, she automatically knows all the spells for that level given on the dread necromancer’s spell list. Dread necromancers also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below).

https://kolidascope.fandom.com/wiki/Dread_Necromancer

Some or less of these are reflected in a Pale Master. However though the class itself does not extend the duration of Necromancy Summons it does empower them through the class than countless of feats with the player eventually at level 20 becoming a lich themselves throwing their mortality away to practically build themselves into an A/MPC. Which in my belief would encourage more Necromancy play.

Now I know a lot of these P&P things would need to change to fit or effectively be workable in the Ravenloft setting but the Dev's team work with the recent Prestige Classes was phenomenal. And much like Paladins Dread Necromancer role play would be very ingrained in their creation as well very fitting into the Ravenloft Gothic Horror Scheme. I personally believe adding more dread to a horror game is always a bonus. Though its just me it's food for thought and give something to those in suggestion for better Necromancy Summons to at least have a class focused upon Necromancy with suitable spells, summons improvement, and select Necromantic spells fitting for the theme of this suggested role play.

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #73 on: December 21, 2019, 07:07:23 PM »
True Necromancer from the same book as palemaster is a neat one too, very similar to the Hallowed Witch spell progression portrayed on this server.

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #74 on: December 24, 2019, 11:09:23 AM »
Not once has anyone said 'Oh, casters are weak. We should buff them.' I don't know why you keep repeating that they aren't when nobody says they are.

What we're saying is anyone that is directly focused on the act of necromancy and raising corpses *is* weak, because the necromancy feats weaken the character in question. And given that being found out as a necromancer has immediately become a PvP target, there are far better feats a caster that may be engaged in pvp could and should take.

Technically, according to our PvP rules, being found out as a necromancer isn't enough to be a PvP target. Anyone who attacks a PC -just- because they are a necromancer is breaking PvP rules.

In any case, the issue seems to be that undead summons are weak, something I tend to agree with. That being said, revising summons takes time and is a pain. If anyone volunteers to do it and sends me completed utc files for the summons I can revise (and that follow the source books), I'll be happy to look into them.