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Author Topic: Necromancy feats worth?  (Read 8922 times)

Bobotz

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Necromancy feats worth?
« on: March 16, 2018, 09:18:58 AM »
Hi! I am planning to invest in some feats that enhance the power of summoned undead...considered the limited duration of the summon do you think they are worth taking, speakibg of mechanics?

On rp side i like them a lot
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MAB77

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2018, 09:36:41 AM »
I invite you yo take them and test them by yourself. It is the best way to find out.

Feats not whitstanding, necromancers are fun to play. I highly doubt you would regret it. Be aware that others may engage you in PvP if you are not discreet in your necromantic spellcasting. Occupational hazard. The Red Wizards of Hazlan would definitively help you out in your researches. Seek them out ingame.
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Troukk

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2018, 09:39:35 AM »
The Red Wizards of Hazlan would definitively help you out in your researches. Seek them out ingame.

Or turn you into a test subject. Depends on the day.  :twisted:
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SanneJ

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2018, 12:22:57 PM »
"Oooh, sir wishes to learn something about necromancy? Just step into this circle here, this will only hur.. take a minute."
« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 09:05:32 PM by SanneJ »
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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2018, 12:40:32 PM »
To answer your original question, I will say this:  The new necromancy and summon feats are very cool, and I like that efforts were made to shore-up the weaker side of magic on this server.  They provide a lot of RP potential and if you want to take them, there's nothing wrong with that.

However, they're not the "optimal" path for casters and you're going to be worse off than casters who did not focus on the summon feats (in my own opinion).  The short duration of the summon means that you're using not only the summon spell, but many other "buff" spells, for something that just isn't going to last long.  In a dungeon, it's basically only useful as a distraction against equal-level content.  In PvP, I could see them being useful in the lower level ranges but only if you buffed them first and even then, probably only against non-fighter types.

For example, int he case of Animate dead:  It's not just casting a level 5 spell to summon a monster to attack something.  It's a level 5 spell, and then bulls, cats, bears, gmw, haste, flame weapon, iron bones, mage armor, shield.  That's 10 spells total for something that is lasting 1 Turn + 1 round/level.  So a companion that, as a level 10 wizard, will last you exactly 2 real life minutes.  Extended, that's 4 real life minutes.  So at level 10, extended, you're not even looking at a single ingame hour tick.  At level 20, extended, you're looking at exactly 1 ingame hour tick, and by level 20 the undead series of summons are pretty underpowered for anything you might want to do.  Now I understand that the counter philosophy is just "Well don't waste 9 buff spells on it, stupid" and obviously, that is an option if you want to try that or save spells.  But anyone who has tried to use the summons against equal level content knows why you need to buff it.

All that being said, I say go for what makes you happy RP-wise first and foremost.  If you want to be a necromancer who is often summoning undead, take the feats and try to keep your summons in flanking position where they won't get insta-killed by mobs.  If you want to only occasionally make use of undead companions, you could also consider  Control Undead (circle 6 for clerics, 7 for wiz/sorc) which is 1 turn/level by comparison.  That's plenty of time to buff something up and actually get use out of it, but you have to go out and find the enemy you want rather than summoning it which is the drawback.  If you're just doing it as a cool RP flavor thing, you could always build for something else but still summon the undead for scenes or intimidation or whatever the case may be.

peps

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2018, 01:59:44 PM »
Planned to iterate what Legion did, because that's the reality of it. Even on paper, it's a bad set up. Hard to imagine trying to account for the unexpected.

If possible, I say advocating for another feat to be added; most of the necromancy feats serve as prereqs to the new feat, which is undead summons will last the full 1hr + 1turn/lvl.

ViktorYouFool

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2018, 01:09:48 AM »
Planned to iterate what Legion did, because that's the reality of it. Even on paper, it's a bad set up. Hard to imagine trying to account for the unexpected.

If possible, I say advocating for another feat to be added; most of the necromancy feats serve as prereqs to the new feat, which is undead summons will last the full 1hr + 1turn/lvl.

Yep. This is my biggest thing. I really dig the summoning feats in concept.. but with the durations being so short it just doesn't seem worth it. It's a shame, as you'd think necromancy would be OP in the demiplane of dread.



APorg

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 01:14:47 AM »
TBH a Conjuration Summons wizard isn't really that viable, except that Conjuration includes some good assault spells...
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Skarain

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2018, 06:40:12 AM »
I got to agree with most people in here.

HOWEVER, you could always "summon" a more long-term undead by making some deals with the lovely ghouls/wights and other MPC's around the server.  :D

Just... avoid the church and everyplace with "LW,NG,CG" guys.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 06:42:10 AM by Skarain »
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MAB77

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2018, 02:19:06 PM »
Never listen to those claiming the summon durations are not long enough. That is just not true. My own experience with summons is that you can accomplish a lot within 1 turn + 1 round level, doubly so with the extended spell feat. Some summons can over time deal more damage than instant damaging spells of the same level and it is by that standard they should be judged.
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APorg

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2018, 02:38:17 PM »
Never listen to those claiming the summon durations are not long enough. That is just not true. My own experience with summons is that you can accomplish a lot within 1 turn + 1 round level, doubly so with the extended spell feat. Some summons can over time deal more damage than instant damaging spells of the same level and it is by that standard they should be judged.

I find your post both incredibly dismissive of others' opinions, and surprisingly defensive.
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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2018, 03:04:12 PM »
Mab, could you give an example of what you've done with create undead and the new feats? Or, if you're not referring to that, what summons have you used?

booksarefun666

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2018, 03:07:31 PM »
Never listen to those claiming the summon durations are not long enough. That is just not true. My own experience with summons is that you can accomplish a lot within 1 turn + 1 round level, doubly so with the extended spell feat. Some summons can over time deal more damage than instant damaging spells of the same level and it is by that standard they should be judged.

At later levels like 15 maybe, but that's a whole 1 - 15 gap of waiting for the duration to be substantial enough. Not to mention that summons can backfire and go hostile on you (barring create undead) that I rarely see it employed in dungeons and one spell in only one particular form - animate dead - as a skeletal chieftain - employed in select few situations. I think you're looking at how it looks 'on paper' and not seeing how it's playing out in the actual live server.

Remember:

1 turn = 10 rounds. (1 minute)

to get a 2 minute duration you need to be level 10.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 03:13:38 PM by booksarefun666 »

APorg

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2018, 03:11:30 PM »
It doesn't really get better at higher levels. In fact it probably gets worse, since most dungeons and PCs become so powerful that it's all about being sufficiently buffed to take on your enemy; it's like Legion said, it's not just the summon that's on a short duration, but each buff that the summon needs to make it competitive -- including potentially Mage Armour, Shield, Stoneskin, a Bull's and a GMW, and so on.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 03:13:13 PM by aprogressivist »
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booksarefun666

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2018, 03:14:43 PM »
It doesn't really get better at higher levels. In fact it probably gets worse, since most dungeons and PCs become so powerful that it's all about being sufficiently buffed to take on your enemy; it's like Legion said, it's not just the summon that's on a short duration, but each buff that the summon needs to make it competitive -- including potentially Mage Armour, Shield, Stoneskin, a Bull's and a GMW, and so on.

Getting into the actual stats of a summon would be something else entirely. The late, late ones are great but the summon duration is horrendous and they don't last long enough justifying buffing them.

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2018, 03:21:08 PM »
The only really useful application of summons on PoTM is as a distraction, and in that respect, a badger is just as useful as a skeleton chieftan.

So, I'd say no, they're definitely not worth it.
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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 03:22:42 PM »
Mab, could you give an example of what you've done with create undead and the new feats? Or, if you're not referring to that, what summons have you used?

No, of course he can't because he has no idea what he's saying.  I put of lot of effort into my post but why make a counter argument when you can just go "nah" and that's that?

Ask Mika, ask Chab, ask Pav, ask Aprog, ask Mayvind, ask me.  If any of us, on our casters, are doing a dungeon either solo or in a team, do you see us using summons?  Do you see us raising skeletons?  No, because we know what we're doing and it's a stupid choice like 99% of the time to blow a ton of feats and buff spells to try and shore-up the worst spell you get for that circle.  But no, let's forget all that.  Mab, how does BORVAL use summons?  Let us know how your dwarven defender has really kicked ass with those summon spells.  Or have you seen anyone else really doing work in dungeons with summons?  Let me know who they are because I seriously want to ask them what they've discovered that none of us managed to.

Seriously, if so many people with actual experience in this field are saying things are a certain way, why would you just throw that collective opinion in the trash?

To the guy who asked the original question, listen to me.  Do not take those feats if you want to be optimal.  Take them only if the RP flavor is worth it to you.  You can survive as a buffbot wizard even if you waste a ton of feats on summon related things, just don't expect your summons to be a welcome sight in dungeons at any level.  Anyone who tells you otherwise is just wrong, and I explained why in my previous post.  Do what you find fun, don't let your dreams be dreams, but don't let anyone tell you that path is "strong" compared to others you could take.


booksarefun666

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 03:24:16 PM »
please clap

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 03:28:24 PM »
Books the summon duration is less than that if you account for the time required to buff it, giving you less effective time to use it. Each buff takes 6 seconds, or 3 if you haste yourself to buff it. But then, that's a haste not being used on your summon. If you're not high level, it's a pretty large investment for something that will disappear fairly quickly. Like what would you use that sort of thing for? Not dungeons, it disappears before you'd make it terribly far. Those buffs would be far better served on a party member. At best, I keep a mord sword prepared in case things go wrong in a dungeon, or there's one monster in particular that needs focus fire. It comes with a better weapon than most summons, it doesn't need a lot of buffing.

Chaoshawk

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 03:31:53 PM »
Never listen to those claiming the summon durations are not long enough. That is just not true. My own experience with summons is that you can accomplish a lot within 1 turn + 1 round level, doubly so with the extended spell feat. Some summons can over time deal more damage than instant damaging spells of the same level and it is by that standard they should be judged.

Summon durations are too brief. The only necromancy/conjuration spell I found useful on my three wizard characters for using a 'summon' or creature to manipulate in that capacity over the years has been control undead because its duration is somewhat reasonable.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 03:34:40 PM by Chaos »
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MAB77

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 03:36:34 PM »
Wow. You guys read way too much into what was not said. It is the problem with texts. It does not convey tones really well. If you knew me at all you would know I am not dismissive of other's opinions. Granted I could have worded it better. I think I will just skip out this one. I did not meant to spark a debate.
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booksarefun666

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2018, 03:38:01 PM »
Wow. You guys read way too much into what was not said. It is the problem with texts. It does not convey tones really well. If you knew me at all you would know I am not dismissive of other's opinions. Granted I could have worded it better. I think I will just skip out this one. I did not meant to spark a debate.

If there's a takeaway from this please reconsider summon durations. I'm sure in your dev boards they say they're fine but they're not when you actually play a wizard or a sorc, to the point that they're seldom used and not at all appreciated when it's translate into the live version.

Making them 1 hour (6 minutes) + 1 turn (1 minute) / level would probably see them get use again. Plus you have to consider what spell slots  (or even worse, spells as a sorc) summons are completing with and why people take those over that.

We don't hate you MAB, but you get this strong reaction because it's something that is patently false. Summon durations aren't fine.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 03:44:28 PM by booksarefun666 »

MAB77

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2018, 04:12:41 PM »
I will bring up the question of summon durations at the next DEV meeting. That is Sunday. I will present all the facts you bring me, for or against, objectively. PM me your arguments.
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RedwizardD

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2018, 04:14:31 PM »
I understand that most summons were deliberately crippled with tiny durations to prevent casters from using them as tanks and thus discourage soloing. This had the sideeffect of making them worthless except as a brief diversion.

Edit:
It's a pity too because some of the summoned critters look cool.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 04:17:10 PM by RedwizardD »

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Necromancy feats worth?
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2018, 05:10:12 PM »
Alright, I know we're pretty intent on making sure that the server adheres to 3.0/3.5 rules, so my suggestion would be this:

Animate Dead, Create Undead, Create Greater Undead are all permanent under 3.0/3.5 rules. If we were to implement this I can't see it having much of a negative on the server, given Animate Undead isn't available until 5th circle for wizards/sorcs (though admittedly, clerics do get it earlier).

Create Undead and Create Greater Undead units, by the rules, don't actually materialize under the caster's control. They should be hostile upon summoning, and require the player to cast Control Undead to manipulate them.



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