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Author Topic: Port quest items  (Read 1036 times)

Iridni Ren

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Port quest items
« on: March 22, 2018, 11:31:55 AM »
Last night we found several quest items and turned them in to the Port merchant whose name escapes me. Reflecting on this, I find it sort of OOC and a strange mechanic. With the Vallaki items, they're listed on a board and everything is known to be wanted by the city via the Garda.

In Port, however, it's a merchant who happens to look for collectibles. How is it that everyone IC knows this and recognizes such an item when finding it? A PC can never have gone to Port ever but because of OOC knowledge, finds a strange item and heads directly to the shop to turn it in.

I don't know that there's a perfect solution, but this functionality would seem to be more applicable for a Vistani merchant. Or perhaps the Blaustein merchant now that he's been nerfed (which would give people a reason to go there again). It doesn't, in fact, have to be an either/or: all three places could accept quest items. The IC reason for Blaustein would be that as an island port full of pirates, it's known to traffic in rare items from diverse lands.

I can accept that there is something striking about these items so that players immediately recognize they are of special value from appearance. But it feels very odd for everyone to board a caravan, hike through a couple of districts to a little Port-a-Lucine shop, and watch an item be turned in because OOC we know that's how we get XP.

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wildflame

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2018, 11:52:02 AM »
Why fix something that's not broken?

Norture

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2018, 12:03:59 PM »
How did you find the dungeons if you didn't have prior IC knowledge of them being there?

Erebus

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2018, 12:19:32 PM »
Joseph Fogg is not a merchant. He's not even a collector. He's an antiques dealer, the person that sources antiquities and then sells them to collectors. This is made apparent through his dialog options. He keeps a public listing of wanted artefacts in a ledger in his shop, much like the Vallaki bounty board.

I presume Fogg was chosen as the turn-in point for the high-level bounties (as he existed before they did), because an antiques dealer looking for antiques was a natural choice.

No other bounties or deliveries have multiple turn-in points, so I don't see why the high-level ones should.

The high-level bounties are no more immersion-breaking than the Vallaki bounties or any of the deliveries. They are all concessions to this being a persistent game with dozens of players, not a finely-crafted 4-player adventure.
I chose to suspend my disbelief and not ask questions like 'Why does Krofburg need all this Passionflesh Fruit, where's it all going?', 'Why doesn't the Fishing Lodge deliver its barrels of fish to Vallaki by boat? - Wouldn't that be easier?', 'Why can only these 5 creatures make leather suitable for armour?' etc etc.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2018, 01:03:36 PM »
How did you find the dungeons if you didn't have prior IC knowledge of them being there?

Dungeons are quite frequently found by actually exploring. Or IC a bunch of people meet up and a first timer goes, "yeah, I want to go too!" This is especially true of my PC as there are still very, very many places on the server she has never been. For example, there was a recent advertisement of a venture to Perfidus.  And that's how she got there: by IC expressing interest and IC being at the right place at the right time.

I've never observed anyone RP these Port quest items in all the times I've been around when they've been found, even when I've been with very good RPers. Instead, they generate OOC interactions and Tells.

Joseph Fogg is not a merchant. He's not even a collector. He's an antiques dealer, the person that sources antiquities and then sells them to collectors. This is made apparent through his dialog options. He keeps a public listing of wanted artefacts in a ledger in his shop, much like the Vallaki bounty board.

I presume Fogg was chosen as the turn-in point for the high-level bounties (as he existed before they did), because an antiques dealer looking for antiques was a natural choice.

No other bounties or deliveries have multiple turn-in points, so I don't see why the high-level ones should.

The high-level bounties are no more immersion-breaking than the Vallaki bounties or any of the deliveries. They are all concessions to this being a persistent game with dozens of players, not a finely-crafted 4-player adventure.
I chose to suspend my disbelief and not ask questions like 'Why does Krofburg need all this Passionflesh Fruit, where's it all going?', 'Why doesn't the Fishing Lodge deliver its barrels of fish to Vallaki by boat? - Wouldn't that be easier?', 'Why can only these 5 creatures make leather suitable for armour?' etc etc.

Both yours and Norture's responses can be summarized as "there's a lot of immersion-breaking stuff on the server, so why bother fixing any of it?"

What you say about Fogg only reinforces my point, in fact. No one has to go check out his ledger ahead of time, or even be aware that it exists (I wasn't), or go through the dialogue options. Instead, five PCs pile on a caravan and traverse through Port purely to get the XP reward at the end. Is this IC? Then why do they sit in the Mist Camp chatting while the designated seller goes and sells all the other items to the Vistani? Because the latter doesn't reward XP that they need to be present for to receive. (I actually think it would be better for the XP to be awarded when the item is first picked up, if the only thing that's going to result is a tedious, out-of-character trip that many choose to forego even with the XP reward.)

Saying "B" is bad too may divert from the topic, but it's not a defense against the charge that "A" is bad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism) . At least in Barovia all the items have been lost within the Domain. In the Port situation, you have an odd shop that apparently everyone in the Core knows is the only place in all the Core where you can take "antiques" from all over the Core.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 01:10:03 PM by Iridni Ren »

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RedwizardD

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 01:08:52 PM »
I believe the general idea is not that people know he is actively looking for a specific item. But that (though gossip or the vistani or flyers or what not) It is known that there IS a wealthy curio collector in port'a'lucine. Adventurers travel. They find some culture or art piece and in true explorer fashion go "ooh. I bet this would fetch a high price to the right buyer." And the logical place to take it would be a curio collector.

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 01:14:10 PM »
I believe the general idea is not that people know he is actively looking for a specific item. But that (though gossip or the vistani or flyers or what not) It is known that there IS a wealthy curio collector in port'a'lucine. Adventurers travel. They find some culture or art piece and in true explorer fashion go "ooh. I bet this would fetch a high price to the right buyer." And the logical place to take it would be a curio collector.

This.

The ledger is strictly a mechanical limitation. There can only be so many items that the devs are willing to produce. If this was a true game of tabletop, parties could find items that look interesting then go to Fogg to appraise and sell them. That obviously cannot be the case in a persistent world with hundred of characters. Some things need automation.

Norture

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2018, 01:21:29 PM »
That's not my point Iridni. You find dungeons through exploring, or by other players showing you. Same goes for Joseph Fogg. I actually didn't know they added new bounties until other players showed me. I knew about the opium den well before that, because I went exploring. So let's say you find a bounty and don't know what to do with it. I mean, OOC maybe you can tell the item is special, it gave you a "marked for participating in a quest" thingy. You could go and ask other players, "Hey I found this thing, it's a lot more cool than the normal greenstones and glow jars I come across. Know anyone who might want it?", and you'll probably come across someone who can help you.

I'd agree that Joseph Fogg is tucked away and it might not be obvious to new players what you do with the things you find. I just think calling it immersion breaking is a bit of a stretch when there's plenty of IC ways you could find out.

Also wtf is that wiki stuff. You're doing the very same thing you're arguing I'm doing by derailing a thread with wiki links and arguing about my argument rather than its content. 

Erebus

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 01:25:43 PM »
No one has to go check out his ledger ahead of time, or even be aware that it exists (I wasn't), or go through the dialogue options.

I don't understand how that is a server design failing, and not your own.

SanneJ

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2018, 01:28:00 PM »
I have send at least three people that way IC, so people do ask/talk about it.

Maybe if you try and sell something like that there can be a message that this might be worth something to a collector (like the ones in Barovia being "someone might be looking for that"), that would bring rp and folks would get to Foggs that way.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2018, 03:17:44 PM »
No one has to go check out his ledger ahead of time, or even be aware that it exists (I wasn't), or go through the dialogue options.

I don't understand how that is a server design failing, and not your own.

*sigh*

I don't understand why you opt for words like "failure" to make a discussion unnecessarily pejorative.

To repeat and express it as simply as possible for you. I wrote:

Quote
How is it that everyone IC knows this and recognizes such an item when finding it? A PC can never have gone to Port.


You responded:

Quote
This is made apparent through his dialog options. He keeps a public listing of wanted artefacts in a ledger in his shop

When my point was you don't have to have ever been to Port before finding the item! Hence:

Quote
What you say about Fogg only reinforces my point, in fact. No one has to go check out his ledger ahead of time

How can you fail to follow that?

It is not a "failure" on a PC's part to visit a shop in Port before she goes to other domains.

Capiche?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 03:21:36 PM by Iridni Ren »

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peps

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2018, 03:41:17 PM »
I honestly am not sure what you're arguing here now. There is zero indication from the items that I've seen that suggests you go to Port and especially not Fogg.

Rephrase the issue you have with the system.

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2018, 03:52:34 PM »
I am fairly sure that it takes more than a single person's complaint to move the devs toward modifying a mechanic that has done the job for years.

Though if you feel that crossing half the world for xp that undermines your sense of immersion, you could also simply do without the xp reward.

Erebus

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2018, 05:02:10 PM »
Capiche?

Not really. I thought I gave a comprehensive answer that addressed all your points.

With the Vallaki items, they're listed on a board and everything is known to be wanted by the city via the Garda.

He keeps a public listing of wanted artefacts in a ledger in his shop, much like the Vallaki bounty board.

In Port, however, it's a merchant who happens to look for collectibles.

Joseph Fogg is not a merchant. He's not even a collector. He's an antiques dealer, the person that sources antiquities and then sells them to collectors. This is made apparent through his dialog options.

I don't know that there's a perfect solution, but this functionality would seem to be more applicable for a Vistani merchant. Or perhaps the Blaustein merchant now that he's been nerfed (which would give people a reason to go there again). It doesn't, in fact, have to be an either/or: all three places could accept quest items. The IC reason for Blaustein would be that as an island port full of pirates, it's known to traffic in rare items from diverse lands.
I presume Fogg was chosen as the turn-in point for the high-level bounties (as he existed before they did), because an antiques dealer looking for antiques was a natural choice.

But I guess not.

I just don't understand why this is an issue. Wouldn't a simple query like 'Hey fellow adventurers, why are we going to Port-a-Lucine with this strange idol?' have fixed this at the source? Why does this require a thread on the forums?

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2018, 06:26:53 PM »
I think Cosmic sums it up well enough. If you have a problem with something being dubiously in-character, voice that in-character, and receive an answer that may or may not be to your liking. In the end, it's a mechanic fit for a PW, which is not an all-encompassing immersive dreamscape by nature of the concessions that must be made in order to engineer replayability.

If you (not you, specifically) want full IC in all measures, then strive toward making it so on your own, or seek a different experience.
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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2018, 08:24:34 PM »
I think Cosmic sums it up well enough. If you have a problem with something being dubiously in-character, voice that in-character, and receive an answer that may or may not be to your liking. In the end, it's a mechanic fit for a PW, which is not an all-encompassing immersive dreamscape by nature of the concessions that must be made in order to engineer replayability.

If you (not you, specifically) want full IC in all measures, then strive toward making it so on your own, or seek a different experience.

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2018, 09:01:40 PM »
For me part of the fun was trying to figure out where his shop was and both IC and OOC asking other players and their characters who had been on the server longer than me about it.
Port is all about wandering around finding little hidden interesting areas and trying not to get caught out at night where very powerful gangs beat the crud out of a lone straggling adventurer... Or in the sewers where amped up slimes, ratmen and giant bipedal insects want to wreck your sh*t up.

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Re: Port quest items
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2018, 10:19:27 PM »
'Why doesn't the Fishing Lodge deliver its barrels of fish to Vallaki by boat? - Wouldn't that be easier?'

Hey, you need a full ferry boat load to justify sailing a boat across the lake -- three barrels, that's outlander work!
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