Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions

[Leezil]

I think it's (literally) ignoring one another to say on the one hand there is no legitimate reason for someone in Vallaki to want RP XP than for PvP and, likewise on the other hand, there is no good reason to encourage PCs to move away from Vallaki.

The Devs have built many areas on the server for us to explore; they've tried to design Barovia with the idea it will be the low level starting area, and that the other challenges will eventually attract many PCs away from it. They want to maintain the server's Gothic Horror setting that is presumably the reason we're here and not some other server. DMs want to be able to run events with a reasonable expectation of the level of PCs involved so as to make challenges appropriate. AMPCs want to be scary and tell a story rather than red equals dead.

Players, on the other hand, don't want to be punished arbitrarily for developing characters who have IC motivations for how they act, rather than just following a railroaded path created by OOC gameplay considerations.

To address all those concerns and interests, we need to avoid sweeping statements based on our own preferences and play style and think of solutions that promote a healthy, satisfied community, capable of supporting and even encouraging Devs, DMs, and players with diverse tastes. POTM needs all of them to flourish.

I agree with this immensely.

As a new player, it's been both a positive and a negative having high level characters around in the starting area. On the one hand, it's a great canvas for the RP I'm looking for and should have access to: the RP opportunities shouldn't be based on level, for new or old characters alike. My RP and experience has been HIGHLY positively impacted by many of the characters who are punished by the existing system staying in Vallaki despite it.

On the other hand, it does strain immersion to see so many be fearless at the night, jump to fight it, throw spells around, or brave danger in ways that feel meta and level based more than IC. There's no real mechanical fix for that, I think, except maybe more monster PCs?

At the same time, as has been well said above, no one should have to avoid doing something IC (like protecting a town, avoiding evil, etc) or feel shamed for acting IC.

A system of carrot rather than stick might help.

[BraveSirRobin]

Leveling up is crucial for the game's fun. Higher level characters are better able to embody character concepts.

That may be your preference, but it is not an objective fact, and indeed is a counterproductive attitude to bring into certain factions. Can you imagine a Vallaki Garda full of level 20s with enchanted gear? Sure, there were some very high level, powerful Garda for a while, but we didn't see the backstage IC politicking and stuff that went on that they had to endure to keep their place. They were the exception, not the rule. High levels and power will catch up with Barovian characters, to the point that the DMs will Faction switch them from the Commoners to the Outlanders if they feel it appropriate.

Now I'll put my hand up and admit that I don't know what extent this applies to all other DM-supported factions, but I think it's fair to say if your desires for your character's progression put you in conflict with the themes or the responsibilities required by that faction on an OOC level (rather than rolling with the punches on an IC level when conflict happens between your character's desires and those themes/responsibilities) then maybe that Faction is not for you.

To be fair, if you have a gang of level 20's who show up at the outskirts and play the PvP rules to the letter, they can get rid of the entire Garda faction, kill all the NPCs related to them if they fight back, kill off all of the level-appropriate characters and declare themselves the pauper kings of the area until a DM gets other level 20's involved, or decides to take out an NPC to squander the PC. There isn't any good reason, logically, why a Gendarme can be level 20, but a Garda can't, other than the domain has a restrictor plate attached to it with a lot of leaky holes. I think Vallaki shouldn't be designed to house level 20's, but I think if that's the case, level 20's need to be kept out of Vallaki more firmly to facilitate the low-level experience the server wants. This half and half approach is pretty useless.

[Khornite]

To be fair, if you have a gang of level 20's who show up at the outskirts and play the PvP rules to the letter, they can get rid of the entire Garda faction, kill all the NPCs related to them if they fight back, kill off all of the level-appropriate characters and declare themselves the pauper kings of the area until a DM gets other level 20's involved, or decides to take out an NPC to squander the PC. There isn't any good reason, logically, why a Gendarme can be level 20, but a Garda can't, other than the domain has a restrictor plate attached to it with a lot of leaky holes. I think Vallaki shouldn't be designed to house level 20's, but I think if that's the case, level 20's need to be kept out of Vallaki more firmly to facilitate the low-level experience the server wants. This half and half approach is pretty useless.

Let's be honest, a single level 15 wizard who is skilled at PvP can do this. A well equipped fighter can do this with the right potions. Don't even need a party of level 20s.

[Iridni Ren]

I'm not getting what the point of the hypothetical is?

[modderpunk]

system of carrot rather than stick might help.

Being able to gain rp xp outside the vallaki area might be the carrot....

[Cassius]

All right, I'm not going to participate in this long drawn out debate (that has come up regularly since the RP XP restrictions first came about, I might add) but I just want to point out one thing. I have played on quite a few RP servers over the years and the few that did have any kind of RP XP system were terrible in comparison to POTM's. Arelith's, for example felt very much like a question of favouritism and arbitrary at best. But, the real point I wanted to make is this: there are plenty of servers out there that don't even hand out any kind of RP XP at all. We should all be happy that, despite the fact that the devs felt it needed to be tweaked at bit, we still have RP XP at all.

You're forgetting that leveling on PotM is one heck of a grind, and that it can take a long time for some characters to even get at an optimal level.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm not getting what the point of the hypothetical is?

The point of the hypothetical is pointing out that the system really doesn't achieve what it's supposed to be achieving through anything but good will, and it consistently grates on those individuals who have shown the good will to abide by the system, by punishing them but not those individuals who venture beyond, and can return, and dominate the characters who remained behind.

If they want to close off the area to post-14's, sure. I'm totally behind that, let's level gate the area. But unless they can find a good way to keep characters above that point from returning after their dungeon runs, it's ... Just silly. And.. This debate repeats itself about every six months. It's clear there's discontent from it, but nobody has actually elected to abuse the very flaw in the system that everyone's pointing out. I don't think anything is going to change until it becomes an unfortunate, regrettable issue.

And to be clear my stance on the affair, I don't even RP in Barovia. I have no dog in this fight. I just think that it's a very fair point.

[APorg]

Yeah, there's fundamentally a conflict between the idea that Vallaki should be  low level area and giving high levels the freedom to return. The Dev team's approach right now is actually a soft touch. They can't make it any softer without abandoning the idea that Vallaki is  low level hub altogether.

And that would be a major server philosophy change.

[PlatointheCave]

[snip]

Astutely put. I'd like to echo my support for this sentiment and reasoning.

[Iridni Ren]

I'm not getting what the point of the hypothetical is?

The point of the hypothetical is pointing out that the system really doesn't achieve what it's supposed to be achieving through anything but good will, and it consistently grates on those individuals who have shown the good will to abide by the system, by punishing them but not those individuals who venture beyond, and can return, and dominate the characters who remained behind.

If they want to close off the area to post-14's, sure. I'm totally behind that, let's level gate the area. But unless they can find a good way to keep characters above that point from returning after their dungeon runs, it's ... Just silly. And.. This debate repeats itself about every six months. It's clear there's discontent from it, but nobody has actually elected to abuse the very flaw in the system that everyone's pointing out. I don't think anything is going to change until it becomes an unfortunate, regrettable issue.

And to be clear my stance on the affair, I don't even RP in Barovia. I have no dog in this fight. I just think that it's a very fair point.

Except the hypothetical doesn't happen.

And I actually do think you have a dog in the fight, but it would take us off topic

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm not getting what the point of the hypothetical is?

The point of the hypothetical is pointing out that the system really doesn't achieve what it's supposed to be achieving through anything but good will, and it consistently grates on those individuals who have shown the good will to abide by the system, by punishing them but not those individuals who venture beyond, and can return, and dominate the characters who remained behind.

If they want to close off the area to post-14's, sure. I'm totally behind that, let's level gate the area. But unless they can find a good way to keep characters above that point from returning after their dungeon runs, it's ... Just silly. And.. This debate repeats itself about every six months. It's clear there's discontent from it, but nobody has actually elected to abuse the very flaw in the system that everyone's pointing out. I don't think anything is going to change until it becomes an unfortunate, regrettable issue.

And to be clear my stance on the affair, I don't even RP in Barovia. I have no dog in this fight. I just think that it's a very fair point.

Except the hypothetical doesn't happen.

And I actually do think you have a dog in the fight, but it would take us off topic

I have no dog in the fight, but if your response is, 'The hypothetical doesn't happen,' would you like for a number of people to instead.. Endeavor to make this hypothetical happen, just to prove a point? Because it's very much sounding like that it's the only way to do so, and it would be entirely above-board, rules-wise.

[Iridni Ren]

Spoiler: show

I'm not getting what the point of the hypothetical is?

The point of the hypothetical is pointing out that the system really doesn't achieve what it's supposed to be achieving through anything but good will, and it consistently grates on those individuals who have shown the good will to abide by the system, by punishing them but not those individuals who venture beyond, and can return, and dominate the characters who remained behind.

If they want to close off the area to post-14's, sure. I'm totally behind that, let's level gate the area. But unless they can find a good way to keep characters above that point from returning after their dungeon runs, it's ... Just silly. And.. This debate repeats itself about every six months. It's clear there's discontent from it, but nobody has actually elected to abuse the very flaw in the system that everyone's pointing out. I don't think anything is going to change until it becomes an unfortunate, regrettable issue.

And to be clear my stance on the affair, I don't even RP in Barovia. I have no dog in this fight. I just think that it's a very fair point.

Except the hypothetical doesn't happen.

And I actually do think you have a dog in the fight, but it would take us off topic

I have no dog in the fight, but if your response is, 'The hypothetical doesn't happen,' would you like for a number of people to instead.. Endeavor to make this hypothetical happen, just to prove a point? Because it's very much sounding like that it's the only way to do so, and it would be entirely above-board, rules-wise.

I think Devs should spend their time addressing actual problems rather than made-up ones.

[BraveSirRobin]

I'm going to break this down in a manner very simple. Simple yes-no questions.

A) Are there PC's currently present in the Vallaki ecosystem that are above the level-restriction? Y/N
B) Are those PC's able to, without any recourse in the rules, engage level-appropriate PC's in PvP as according to the rules of engagement? Y/N
C) Are these PC's able to, without any recourse in the rules, corpsehide lower-level PC's for in any manner not doing every effort possible to diffuse and disengage from the PvP? Y/N
D) Could these PC's, if the players decided to, without any recourse in the rules, elect to override any lower-level PC's in the area, who have not left the domain to build factions? Y/N

Because all of these should be answered, 'Y,' and that is the problem with the level restrictions in the area. I don't understand what kind of issue you think persists that is more important than the quality of experience PC's experience in the very entry area to our server. I'm not going to resort to ad hominem, because if I have to attack you, or your motivations to defeat your argument, my argument is not one sound enough to stand on its own two legs.

Vallaki's level restriction is an exploitable system that punishes primarily those who remain there, and this forum posts continues to be resurrected over the years due to discontent with it. Every time, someone comes through and dismisses it as an invalid issue that requires no adjustment, and attacks -- In one measure or another -- The motivations of the individual who is speaking up for a sentiment that is spoken about widely, and disdained widely, by the vast majority of PoTM's veteran playerbase.

Now, you can either choose to ignore the civil conversation regarding it, and simply ignore the issue -- Causing it to fester into discontent and resentment. Or you can acknowledge it is an issue out of your hands and attempt to suggest a solution to this widespread discontent to resolve it, so that it we don't have to deal with this kind of post again. Because it's never going to go away, unless it outright becomes illegal to speak of it or someone changes the system.

[FellowMan]

Being able to gain rp xp outside the vallaki area might be the carrot....

But I would like to have the carrot