Suggestion: Remove Roleplay Experience Restrictions

[Lion El'Jonson]

I understand that the Vallaki area is meant to be lower level, but the server simply doesn't have the population to actively support more domains outside of it. A majority of the roleplay seems to be in the Vallaki area, which makes it a bummer that the RP experience is throttled after a certain point.

[peps]

Has anyone noticed a significant change since it's been implemented? That's what I wish to know first.

[derkotushka]

Roleplay experience restrictions based on average level of characters which visited areas with time as far as I know.
Not sure if that will be changed since it is made to move mid-high level characters in other areas.
Though this roleplay experience is a bit tricky thing.
Once you will find rare visited area in Vallaki(after last reset/crash) - you can move your main time of RP in such places. In recent past Gapping Wound was good place. Some characters sticking around Broken Bell and of course Blue Water.
Other examples of good place for RP and rarely visited: Fishing Lodge and Watcher areas. And more different areas far or not very. All depends from your imagination.

[Iridni Ren]

I understand that the Vallaki area is meant to be lower level, but the server simply doesn't have the population to actively support more domains outside of it. A majority of the roleplay seems to be in the Vallaki area, which makes it a bummer that the RP experience is throttled after a certain point.

Iridni gets her RP XP throttled in the Western Outskirts most of the time, inside the ML Temple, too. But otherwise, she typically receives the unmodified message.

In the WO, it's hard to balance AMPCs, for example, if high levels just hover there all the time. Plus, as you say, the majority of RP occurs there as is. Without this incentive to go elsewhere, it would be even more of a monopoly. That is, its intent is to help cultivate RP elsewhere--not punish high levels for RPing.

As someone whose main is affected by it, I don't find it onerous.

[ladylena]

If I recall, it was added as a way to encourage higher level characters to explore the server more and lurk less in the outskirts.

[peps]

If I recall, it was added as a way to encourage higher level characters to explore the server more and lurk less in the outskirts.

While I'm not against the concept of throttling RP experience in newbie areas, that idea only works in theory in my experience.

What you now find is the issue of RP circles is enhanced even more. Without players congregating to inherently interesting areas (which the Mist camp is not outside it being a traveling hub), people will simply only log in when 1) Their friends are on, or 2) When there's a public, planned DM event. Without these good hubs, players won't have the chance to interact with one another.

Anyways, good concept if the server was 100+ players, but not so great for a server our size.

[A minor Glamour]

We actually have a large player base, it's just at times, it gets quiet due to time zones. Something has to be done to encourage people to move on from the outskirts though, or at least stop using it as an impenetrable fortress against NPC's and AMPC's, and I think a good idea would be for the NPC clerics to stop providing healing to mid to high level characters, and to stop giving potions in exchange for skeleton knuckles to them as well. This would stop the temple being used as a free instant power healing base of operations. IC the justification is that the clerics can only make a finite number of healing potions per day, seeing as there is no representation of their ability to even craft anything at all, and their own healing powers are not infinite.

[RedwizardD]

I have found the majority of high levels in the area seem to be there for entirely RP reasons. (For instance, the wayfarers have a base nearby. There are multiple churchs and chapels in the region..and a lot of newer or weaker players spend their time there.)

[ASymphony]

There are a number of reasons why Vallaki is the only major hub. The Mist Camp is just not interesting as an RP location, hence why most of the time its deserted. There just isn't anything there. Port-rp is rather specific for the most part and therefore also only draws players who like this particular RP.
In consequence, I suspect most PCs will end up rather suffering through the reduced rp xp then go somewhere they don't like to be. If the system is supposed to do its job, there would need to be some other place PCs actually want to go to, to a large enough degree to support active rp there. As long as that is the case, the system will not work and high level PCs will keep staying in Barovia.

As I have been informed however, there won't be anything else made as long as Dementlieu around and it appears it is the opinion of the Dev-team that it is supposed to remain this way, however I do not believe the majority of  higher level PCs will ever move to Port, or the Mist Camp on any consistent basis.

[RedwizardD]

Maybe we could make a new middle ground hub somewhere like Mordent.

[peps]

Even if we did, I feel like there's also a decent amount of mid-level (lv. 10+) dungeons around Barovia. I can think of 5 off the top of my head. Though, I can't fault the suggestion; we definitely need to entice higher level players to stop helping newbie players so consistently from AMPC's and MPC's.

[herkles]

Maybe we could make a new middle ground hub somewhere like Mordent.

The problem is IMO that a new Hub like that would require a developer to make it. Not to mention to many hubs split the playerbase too much. and we are not that large to have 5 different hubs.

[ASymphony]

I mean, as it stands right now we only have a single hub, which is Barovia. So I do not exactly think the danger is there really.

[Tycat]

I have found places in Vallaki that Lexington gets XP in. Hint: It is not in the outskirts! Maybe that's for the best, because that means I am in the town and not a win button sitting idle in the outskirts, and encourages others to come join me and others in areas inside the town, giving it life.

[PrimetheGrime]

We can't expect the Roleplay XP in the outskirts to not be restricted when there is  level 17+'s in the outskirts waiting for those poor AMPC sods to show up and nuke em. It's frankly sad to see good roleplay get destroyed by higher levels needing to flex. Honestly I think the restriction could stay as long as this is the case, and maybe there is a way for everyone of a level 10+ to agree upon hanging around VoB or even port? Dunno, just my two cents.

[lakhena]

Perhaps some tweaks to Hara'kir could make it a secondary RP hub, given that a lot of mid to high levels go there for adventuring purposes already.  Some outdoor cafe or marketplace near the caravan for people to congregate and maybe some ongoing story / event that would keep people in the area? 

[Iridni Ren]

We can't expect the Roleplay XP in the outskirts to not be restricted when there is  level 17+'s in the outskirts waiting for those poor AMPC sods to show up and nuke em. It's frankly sad to see good roleplay get destroyed by higher levels needing to flex. Honestly I think the restriction could stay as long as this is the case, and maybe there is a way for everyone of a level 10+ to agree upon hanging around VoB or even port? Dunno, just my two cents.

I generally think it's bad for OOC considerations to dictate IC behavior. Although in a way the RP XP throttle is an OOC mechanism for pushing IC behavior, I rationalize it as an experienced person isn't going to learn as much by hanging around with inexperienced people all the time.

If, however, the PC has motivations for being in the Outskirts--and a motivation could be she likes to watch over it and protect it from things that go bump in the night--then it would be OOC to make her move.

As aprog said about closures, some practices need to be cultural, rather than rules based.

Iridni doesn't lurk in the Outskirts. She will go there to place Kinship recruitment posters or--once in a while--with another Kinship member to patrol because of an ongoing investigation. But she mostly stays in the Lodge when not involved directly with something.

Whatever the throttle is set to, it's unlikely to affect her behavior, but it does seem as though it is an IC-justifiable incentive for a PC whose sole drive is XP and power levellng to go elsewhere. Hence, I have no problem with it.

[Sinful Mystic]

Maybe a simpler solution would be for player Monsters to not hunt in the Outskirts? Vampires and the Greater Sanctuary club are pretty much unbeatable but it's ok for them to be there but not someone who can challenge them?

Is it good rp for a high level good character to ignore the presence of monsters? To ignore calls for help? Is their rp less important?

If there really was an alternative Hub this would not be an issue but Krofburg is the alternative Hub, also a low level area. The Port is an event and banking spot.

To create an alternative Hub you need a regular DM presence there and you need rp opportunities for everyone, not just a select few. There is no place on the server that meets that description.

 Most factions work out of Vallaki and a lot of merchants do to. Are Elves supposed to just abandon Deganwwy once they hit level 10 and live in the Mist Camp? ML priests and Wayfarers are supposed to just up and leave and be idle?

Saying that low level stories are more important than high level stories is not credible. Providing no valid alternative or incentive for high levels to be elsewhere means you are just arbitrarily punishing them because they are inconvenient for players who want to attack the outskirts. I do not see how anyone can think that is reasonable.

In theory the Ezrite and RVT factions have a place to "transfer" their high levels but sending them to an empty Port-au-Lucine hardly seems fair. It would be fairly easy to spark renewed interest in the Port but it will take a bit of initiative on both sides. Can I run an tavern in Port-au-Lucine like people do in Krofburg and Vallaki ? What happened to the theatre?

What might make more sense would be removing the Mist Camp entirely and making Port-au-Lucine the centre transit point. Empower some players to do things and have events that will draw a range of characters. If I am traveling from Port, selling in Port and I have rp options like a working theatre, a player run cafe you might see a gradual growth in that area. Then the Gendarme have someone to police, the Ezrites have a reason to be in the Church there, Vardo have people to sell to and so on.

I know lots of players that do not want to be in Vallaki overshadowing things going on there, but they also want more rp than what can be generated at the Mist Camp.

[Iridni Ren]

Sinful Mystic:

I find a lot of what you said very valid but was trying to say it more gently

Especially since it might seem as though I'm letting self-interest influence my objectivity. But honestly, I really do try to avoid stomping on lower-level RP. Although it's true that IC it's hard for me to justify not stopping an MPC should I pass through and one be terrorizing lowbies, that's why I try not to lurk: to minimize the chance that will happen.

When I first joined the server, the WO were scary to me, and I'd like to preserve that experience for low level PCs, especially those played by brand-new players.

(As an aside, the converse problem I run into is criticism that the Kinship can appear to be a do-nothing organization because we do stay sequestered in the Lodge so much.)

To stay on topic, however, I agree that few high levels linger in the Outskirts because of a "need to flex." They just want to be where the activity is (as do we all).

[Zwickelfaust]

I agree that high levels can pose an issue for emersion in low level areas. Having an MPC it can be frustrating to be in the middle of a scene only to get one shotted and laughed at by a high level character who only logged in a few minutes before to get bragging rights and log out. On the other spectrum, I've seen high levels that go out of their way to protect and usher the lower levels to safety. I love those players. That's from an MPC perspective. That being said, many factions have high levels in them that function as mentors or have leadership roles. Having had a character or two in that position, I can say that the rp cap didn't bother me none, and I suspect it doesn't bother others either. It doesn't really function well as a deterrent. People will still be in the outskirts all buffed out and ready to feel like a hero by being easily able to take on most things in the area, be it spawns, DM events, it MPCs. Even if you remove the xp tick completely, little will change from it.

[peps]

I agree that high levels can pose an issue for emersion in low level areas. Having an MPC it can be frustrating to be in the middle of a scene only to get one shotted and laughed at by a high level character who only logged in a few minutes before to get bragging rights and log out. On the other spectrum, I've seen high levels that go out of their way to protect and usher the lower levels to safety. I love those players. That's from an MPC perspective. That being said, many factions have high levels in them that function as mentors or have leadership roles. Having had a character or two in that position, I can say that the rp cap didn't bother me none, and I suspect it doesn't bother others either. It doesn't really function well as a deterrent. People will still be in the outskirts all buffed out and ready to feel like a hero by being easily able to take on most things in the area, be it spawns, DM events, it MPCs. Even if you remove the xp tick completely, little will change from it.

With that in mind, what we can do is place around more NPC's that can trigger a jump in OCR when spells are cast by them; put a grave keeper in the graveyard, a Drain dweller by the well, and an inn employee to mind the stock on the backside of the inn; all three disappear at night as they should. If we want to take another step forward, we can deal with the nonsense buffing IC by having the burgomaster crackdown on the Morninglordians for permitting spellcasting in "public".

[booksarefun666]

Maybe a simpler solution would be for player Monsters to not hunt in the Outskirts? Vampires and the Greater Sanctuary club are pretty much unbeatable but it's ok for them to be there but not someone who can challenge them?

Is it good rp for a high level good character to ignore the presence of monsters? To ignore calls for help? Is their rp less important?

If there really was an alternative Hub this would not be an issue but Krofburg is the alternative Hub, also a low level area. The Port is an event and banking spot.

To create an alternative Hub you need a regular DM presence there and you need rp opportunities for everyone, not just a select few. There is no place on the server that meets that description.

 Most factions work out of Vallaki and a lot of merchants do to. Are Elves supposed to just abandon Deganwwy once they hit level 10 and live in the Mist Camp? ML priests and Wayfarers are supposed to just up and leave and be idle?

Saying that low level stories are more important than high level stories is not credible. Providing no valid alternative or incentive for high levels to be elsewhere means you are just arbitrarily punishing them because they are inconvenient for players who want to attack the outskirts. I do not see how anyone can think that is reasonable.

In theory the Ezrite and RVT factions have a place to "transfer" their high levels but sending them to an empty Port-au-Lucine hardly seems fair. It would be fairly easy to spark renewed interest in the Port but it will take a bit of initiative on both sides. Can I run an tavern in Port-au-Lucine like people do in Krofburg and Vallaki ? What happened to the theatre?

What might make more sense would be removing the Mist Camp entirely and making Port-au-Lucine the centre transit point. Empower some players to do things and have events that will draw a range of characters. If I am traveling from Port, selling in Port and I have rp options like a working theatre, a player run cafe you might see a gradual growth in that area. Then the Gendarme have someone to police, the Ezrites have a reason to be in the Church there, Vardo have people to sell to and so on.

I know lots of players that do not want to be in Vallaki overshadowing things going on there, but they also want more rp than what can be generated at the Mist Camp.

It's not that high levels are less important they have the capability of being more detrimental towards other peoples' stories and if they do it enough, there just simply won't be any antagonists to keep things interesting unless a DM is on running a plot.

With that in mind, what we can do is place around more NPC's that can trigger a jump in OCR when spells are cast by them; put a grave keeper in the graveyard, a Drain dweller by the well, and an inn employee to mind the stock on the backside of the inn; all three disappear at night as they should. If we want to take another step forward, we can deal with the nonsense buffing IC by having the burgomaster crackdown on the Morninglordians for permitting spellcasting in "public".

People would just buff in the Morninglord crypts or buff in the charnel house, then. You would have to re-enable spellvfx to ever hope to stop the perpetual buffer.

[Iridni Ren]

This is a reason it's good to have a much lower-level alt that a player swaps to now and then.

It increases opportunities to be involved in different aspects of the server and see things from more perspectives.

[Zwickelfaust]

I just think that if high levels want to hang out in low level zones, it's fine. I just think they should take a more supportive roll instead of trying to muscle in on plot. When people do this, it takes the fun out of it for lower levels. Most people would enjoy a hard fought victory over a menace rather than see a high level roll in and take care it before the lower levels get a chance to do anything. It's better to be able to say "we" saved the day instead of "I" saved the day. But that's just my opinion.

[RedwizardD]

I suspect the problem is less about a character's level, but the attitude of the players behind it. Someone looking to gank someone 'because they can' are going to find a way to do so regardless of level 7 or level 17.

Likewise, If people are there for the RP. They will seek compromise and a solution that nets the best roleplay story. Oft times that means people on both ends of the alignment spectrum working to help those who are unfairly culled (mechanically) so the plot can return to its organic progression.

Sometimes the organic progression IS "these newcomers and peasants got sick of being attacked and called upon someone with the means to deal with it".

We as a community need to shift our attitudes when it comes to tact in terms of conflict and etiquette. It's not  'oh how dare the good guys'! or 'oooh! the bad guys!'. It's a matter of personal responsibility. The only people making it harder to have meaningful conflicts are the people who don't care in the first place and opt to use lethal force as their primary response. No mechanical limitations on RP are really going to impact people who weren't planning to RP to begin with.

That said..I have to agree with the suggestion to MPCs in general to diversify their stomping grounds. You may find people willing to move to other maps for a chance at a 'surprise' encounter. People out and about who are move willing to 'play ball' as it were. There are many who legitimately do love to put their characters in a vulnerable situation.

Years ago there was a "take back the old night!" and "people need to be more afraid!" movement. Which atleast by outside observation, only served to increase the number of people getting jumped and killed without warning and rp..and a whole lot of bitching when other people then stepped in to stop it.

Eventually that petered off into MPCs moving OUT of heavily congested areas to pick on loners or small groups in remote places. That at least seemed to lead to more quality interactions. Tales spreading of dangerous characters out there and about and their victims. Would-be monster hunters stretching their resources and ranks thin trying to catch these mysterious monsters lurking in the darkest corners.

Edit:
I should clarify. The use of "MPC" in my post in large part can represent any manner of antagonistic entity. (MPCs, cultists, serial killers, zealots, or other forces of an opposing nature). MPCs just are the most common variety of antagonist that initiates contact by 'getting the drop on someone'.