Bears are too passive

[Tycat]

I find nothing quite as jarring as the fact that you can approach and be around bears without them immediately becoming territorial and hostile to you. Mink, deer, squirrels, birds, crabs, and otters become far more territorial and hostile more often than Bears do. They are arguably the friendliest creatures in the forests and mountains and that just sets up a lot of failure.

For example - fighting them: Bears need to be hunted for pelts, grease, and why not, xp. But you have to engage them, and it's never the other way around. Defending yourself from bear attacks simply do not happen. It is at the point that I remember every time I have ever fought a bear (because I needed to) and got caught doing it I was called out for 'disturbing peaceful creatures' which lead to arguments good or evil. This isn't a single encounter - this was many. This is every time I have been caught fighting a bear. A BEAR!

In the real world, bears are terrifyingly vicious and will eat you unless you find a way to scare them off or repel them.

Spoiler: example from real life why bears and people can't be friends, feel free to skip. • show

When I was a child, we were barricaded in our home because there was a baby bear cub sleeping on our front porch and my father transformed into an all out Ninja to get the dog and cat inside and protect us from going outside where the mother was no doubt looming. We had to call and wait for rangers to come and locate the rest of the cub's family and remove them back into the deep woods. I realize this is hyperbole, situational, and maybe even oversharing but the point stands -

Bears, even babies, are trouble. Left alone, sure they are docile and beautiful beasts. But they do not mix well with humans - They really don't. Baloo was a liar. In reality, he's have ripped Mogly apart.

I believe bears should be quicker to hostility, maybe by adjusting their AI to react to things more sensatively - including magic. I imagine that bears would startle easily and become hostile just within sight of a person, especially a person using magic or chopping down a tree, or charging them with a weapon...

[Iridni Ren]

As someone who was recently criticized for wanting systems changed to fit my RP, I'll start by saying that the paladin argument isn't a strong one. If bears are docile and non-aggressive--and who is to say in Barovia a bear *has* to behave like its Earth counterpart?--then attacking one because you *need* to may well invite judgment by other PCs. That would be a moral dilemma, which is supposed to be part of the balance POTM sets against paladin perks. Those who play Outcasts have difficulties imposed on them as far as access to many needed resources, for example, because of the type of PC they're playing.

Now whether bears *should* be more aggressive in their AI, I don't know. IMO, however, most wild creatures would flee from bold displays of any kind of magic unless they had a strong reason not to (defending a cub, for example). Animals want to survive, and even injury IRL usually means death for a wild animal because of infection, making it more difficult to get food, and making it more vulnerable to enemies. If a behavior doesn't help an animal pass on its genes in some way, the animal is unlikely to exhibit it.

If Ravenloft animals are truly like their real-world counterparts. bears that attack those showing off their powerful magic or their shiny, glowing swords would tend to get removed from the gene pool. In general, therefore, some animals seem to me too aggressive in their preference of fight over flight.

ETA: I also think it's questionable that going into the territory of an animal that is by nature territorial and thus provoking it to attack is *that* much more moral than killing the animal for a resource anyway.

[ladylena]

Ignoring the paladin part and just going at the bear issue...

They are more docile than a mink. Like I've watched people walk beside a mink and that little bugger goes super hostile. Yet you walk beside a bear and that doesn't tend to happen. Maybe there is a way to increase the bear's aggression? Or a way to make certain areas the bears territory where if you enter it the bear rears up on its hind legs as a warning.

I've always kind of felt the animal AI to be a bit wonky. But yeah as Tycat pointed out, defending yourself from a bear attack just doesn't happen. I mean you can go inside a bears cave and usually you're safe. With the bear there. I do think it'd be neat if the bears were more frightening and intimidating.

[Iridni Ren]

In general I wouldn't want animals more hostile than they are. A bear is probably going to kill lowbies, who already have it rough. And most high levels I party with find animal attacks just annoying. You are going somewhere focused and buffed, the animal attacks, and you swat it, before moving on.

Assuming there is still a one- to two-bear spawn of Ancient Dire Bears on the way to the mountains from Vallaki, you might also make those deliveries much harder for new PCs.

[Bizarro]

I must say that as a fairly new player I was surprised by how friendly the bears are compared to smaller animals (the minks WILL kill us all one day, remember my words). I don't think we should make all the bears hostile creatures that charge you as soon as they see you but i think that it could be interesting to maybe have something like Rabid Bears, or bears that do charge at you for some reason, that could give a bit of diversity on the forest encounters, clearly it's not strongly needed but it could be something, having some bears that are neutral and having some others that seem neutral, but they are sick, or cursed or something and they are more likely to charge at humans, maybe theese aggressive bears could moove slower than the normal ones so to protect low level characters that try to run away. I don't know if this thing is doable but it could be interesting, I think that a "normal animal" that usually isn't aggressive turning hostile and trying to eat you, in certain situations could be scarier than a werewolf, who's a monster and you know it's going to attack you, everytime.


About the Paladin problems, i really don't see hunting for a bear as an evil act, of curse you aren't defending yourself and that means that you are actively killing a living beeing but it's not so far from butchering a cow to eat her. Yes, we don't usually eat bears but it shouldn't be different from killing a deer, that's another lifeloss that could be avoided, we could all be vegetarians. It's fair that some people seeing you killing the bear would get bothered, i'm thinking of some characters like: druids, rengers, some kind of natural worshipping cleric, elves who are strongly in contact with nature or someone who was rised by bears, for theese type of characters (and the likes) It's natural to be upset to see you killing a bear and could be reasonalbe for them to see the Paladin as evil, violent, or dangerous IC and i think it can lead to some interesting rping scenary where characters try to show others that they aren't as horrible or violent as they seem. Alignment wise bear hunting isn't enough to make someone evil or even neutral, i can figure out a character that's a full time bear hunter and who's good. Simply the fact of beeing a paladin doesn't make you also vegan.

[Tycat]

Right, my mistake for including myself in this example and I have edited my post so that this topic does not further derail from BEARS. This isn't a paladin issue or a how to role play issue. This is a bear issue. Bears should not be this nice, this was brought up a few years ago and I saw that the Dev team replied that the AI would be tweaked, but I still haven't noticed any difference from before. Bears need to be tougher or they need to be rethunk. There is nothing in the lore that says ravenloft bears are not as ferocious as a normal bear.

[King Pickle]

I think all animals could use a tweak but it's probably not a top priority.
My biggest strife is with bats who always block me from running away from werewolves in southern woods.
I guess it's because I'm a ranger but I wish we could just walk through small, non-hostile animals.

As for bears, real life tells me that brown bears tend to fuck off 20-40 meters away from you if you try to approach them. Then they wait until you leave and return to the same spot for their berry eating or whatever they were doing, so I wouldn't call them all that territorial. That said, you probably don't want to sneak up on them or act in a threatening manner.
Whether or not we want to implement that behavior in Ravenloft is another matter though.

[Iridni Ren]

Reading bear behavior

The link applies mostly to grizzly bears, which are generally considered more aggressive--and are certainly larger--than most bears.

[SingASongOfDeath]

Yes. Bears are just too passive. I agree. What I would really like to see is marauding bears, pillaging villages and eating babies. And what's more, I've noticed a further imbalance. Bears cannot equip weapons. This has bothered me since my first day on this server. Why can we, as players, equip weapons while the bears cannot? Also, I have not noticed any bears who are scripted to cast spells. This is probably an oversight from vanilla NWN, but I'm surprised it hasn't been corrected.

Spoiler: show

No I'm not serious. Passive, or aggressive, I'm fine with the bears either way.

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

Yes. Bears are just too passive. I agree. What I would really like to see is marauding bears, pillaging villages and eating babies. And what's more, I've noticed a further imbalance. Bears cannot equip weapons. This has bothered me since my first day on this server. Why can we, as players, equip weapons while the bears cannot? Also, I have not noticed any bears who are scripted to cast spells. This is probably an oversight from vanilla NWN, but I'm surprised it hasn't been corrected.

Spoiler: show

No I'm not serious. Passive, or aggressive, I'm fine with the bears either way.

You clearly havent been to the silver thread mines

[Tycat]

I really appreciate how this thread derailed and was taken completely out of context in every way it could be.

Really hits me in the warm and fuzzies. -_-

[Daboomer]

Glad to hear you appreciate it it's important to tell People when they do a Good job.

[Phantasia]

i can't bear this thread any longer

[Tycat]

i can't bear this thread any longer

That's because you're too passive. Start mauling.

[Tycat]

But seriously. I don't think turning up the aggression on their AI would be detrimental. They would still be manageable by a low level the way they are now. Currently a pack of boars can ruin your day even if you didn't see them right on up to level 10 ish depending on what you are, but I can stand within a foot of a bear and chop down a tree while it watches me like Winnie the Pooh chilling out with his human friend in the forest with all the other woodland creatures (and...non woodland creatures). When you see a bear in the wild, some of them do flee, this is true. But our bears don't. Most bears stand on their back legs and roar at you to tell you they mean business and that would be great too. I have seen that they are capable of that IG, but they don't do it very often.

Well anyway, if I am the only one bothered by this then I suppose that settles that.