Author Topic: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors  (Read 1334 times)

Lucadia

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2019, 04:51:10 PM »
..its not a good lock smith when they get to take 20 too. Its only fair that crowbars work the same so your not required to find a rogue. While a DM can disallow a take 20 and tell you to roll.  That makes the skills balanced, not rogues trumping >every other class over skill ranks with take 20.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2019, 04:56:43 PM »
Balance has to be looked at overall. Rogues should trump every other class in picking locks because they have big disadvantages in other aspects of the game.

FWIW, I use a crowbar. A lot.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 04:58:59 PM by Iridni Ren »

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immasturgeon

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2019, 05:01:52 PM »
It's not exactly trumping. Crowbar is five free ranks in open lock. That is either a two levels worth of skills or two feats.

13 lbs seems a small price to pay for that. I'm not terribly against it mind you, for anything past starting areas real skill investment is required. As it should be, I disagree with you there. I do think that rogues and skill investment should in fact trump in these cases. And it simply cuts down a huge time sink waiting on a million rolls for the 20.

But only in the scenarios mentioned above... No combat, no chests
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 05:08:28 PM by immasturgeon »

Hatsune

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2019, 05:04:44 PM »
Its not exactly "5 free ranks", Strength DCs are MUCH less then pick lock DCs.

I think take 20 on doors would be okay, but there is a 'critical failure' result for chests... so don't think chests should get them. Fail a pick lock, u just fail. fail a Strength by enough, you break something.
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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2019, 05:09:34 PM »
Balance has to be looked at overall. Rogues should trump every other class in picking locks because they have big disadvantages in other aspects of the game.

This is a common msiconception. Wizards and Trickery Clerics get Knock for a reason.

What those classes don't get are the rest of the complementary skills that Rogue get, e.g. Disable Device, Set Trap, Use Magical Device, and the Skill points to invest in Search.

Now bear in mind that this is there for a reason. The idea that one class should be indispensable for parties makes gathering such parties a pain. Hence why we've got two crafts that are mostly dedicated to providing the kind of buffs normally reserved for Wizards and Clerics, so that people who can't find a Wizard or a Cleric can at least operate with substitutes.

I just think the whole thing is inconsistent. I'll say what I said before: it would make sense that you can't take 20 when failure has a consequence. That's why it makes sense that you can't take 20 on bashing open chests: if you fail, you break something. Thus it would make sense that you can't take 20 when bashing doors if failure meant something. Otherwise, it's purely a waste of time; which is what the Take 20 rule exists to prevent.
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immasturgeon

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2019, 05:36:06 PM »
Yeah I agree with you there.

I wouldn't  mind an arbitrary upper limit on the DC it will work with. IDK, DC 26 or 28, something like that.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2019, 05:36:53 PM »
Balance has to be looked at overall. Rogues should trump every other class in picking locks because they have big disadvantages in other aspects of the game.

This is a common msiconception. Wizards and Trickery Clerics get Knock for a reason.


I'm not sure what the "this" refers to in my statement, but the first part is an opinion ("should"). You can disagree with my opinion, but I wasn't asserting it as fact. (The factual part--that rogues have disadvantages in certain parts of the game--I assume you agree with.)

Knock doesn't function on the server the way it does in vanilla NWN because of this same idea of overall balance: for example, that so many creatures are immune to sneak attacks.

Anyway, I was replying to Lucadia's implication that it is inherently unfair for rogues to reign supreme in this area over other classes, when I don't see it as unfair. Even though I play a cleric, I think making Knock obliterate the need for a rogue to deal with locks would be just as unfair as making easily obtainable potions to replace various cleric functions.

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I'll say what I said before: it would make sense that you can't take 20 when failure has a consequence.

I agree with you completely. But most of the time when I'm using a crowbar, failure does have consequences. My buffs are wearing out and sometimes I'm breaking things. Do I get frustrated? Yes...but I'm usually soloing when this happens, which I understand to be the intent. Crowbars let me sort of make do without a rogue, but not be quite as effective.

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2019, 07:10:48 PM »
[edit] didn't notice the NEXT page [/fin]

Chaoshawk

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2019, 12:04:31 AM »
I like the premise and support take 20 for a crowbar.
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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2019, 06:20:03 AM »
I like the premise and support take 20 for a crowbar.

+1

Philos

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2019, 12:36:30 PM »
I like the premise and support take 20 for a crowbar.

Without getting into Rogues and OL, I think take 20 on crowbarring open doors would be a welcome quality of life improvement. I wouldn't extend that ability to chests though.

Chaoshawk

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2019, 03:49:34 PM »
I did consider that after posting. It definitely should not on chests.
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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2019, 11:02:40 PM »
The title of the thread is as specific as it is for a reason, this was never meant to be about chests where the critical failure will destroy loot as a deserved compromise for not having a rogue.

I am not terribly invested in arguing minor QoL improvements forever on the internet - though I do feel the need to come back now that the spark is struck to get a scope of the priorities of fellow players when it comes to their enjoyment. I think you argued some fair cases in which crowbarring doors would have consequences, like this one:

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Am I the only one who instead of dungeons, is thinking of places like Vallaki gates and garda office, the jail, the wall entraces...

But when we argue that, we have to consider how often that really happens, how often it really happens to matter and whether that weights more than the waste of time we put ourselves through when using a tool that was really meant to make life on the server more bearable than the base game.

On top of that, rogues get to take 20 when they are chased and try to open a door as well, unless they have very recently been in combat stance. Given that they do not take 20 in combat, we can assume that they do not get to do this because they are just that skilled at opening locks, but because the NWN coders wanted to afford them some QoL as well when they were not under duress.

So what do we do with this? We have to admit that sometimes it just comes down to courtesy and respectful play. In DM events, the DM can ask the player to make a manual roll, in PvP we are expected to be respectful to begin with, even if that's not always the case in practice. And to add to that: Once the door is open there might be a transition behind it - and when it comes to running over a transition during a chase, some people have the chance to catch up or escape by virtue of their internet connection and speed of their hard drive. This is not a matter that will ever be consistent beyond the respect we have for each other and the setting. I have chosen to let many players escape my PvP by virtue of what would be more fun for everyone. Should I stop doing that and fine tune everything to the fake sense of fairness the engine brings us? I respect the engine. I am very glad it does the rough stuff for us, but I do not believe topics like this are worth splitting so many hairs over. Either the server wants it or not, by show of hands.
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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2019, 08:57:10 AM »
Sure, why not. We’ll add Take 20 support when using a crowbar outside combat.

Nemesis 24

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2019, 09:24:34 AM »
Sure, why not. We’ll add Take 20 support when using a crowbar outside combat.

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Re: Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2019, 09:51:15 PM »
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