Suggestions, Feedback & Bug Reports (OOC) > Module Feedback and Suggestions

Enable "take 20" Strength check when crowbarring doors

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When dungeoning recently and not having the luck to have a rogue available, my fellow player and I noticed it is quite dragging on the mood to crowbar at doors for longer periods of time, when you know it is possible for you to open them and no penalty given for failure. The topic has been discussed in the developement chat.

Noted contra arguments:

- promoting rogues
- consistency in take 20 rulings
- it serves as dungeon breaks for RP

My standing pro arguments:

- rogues should be promoted by them being fun, not by making alternative routes especially tedious
- it might be prudent to value enjoyment of our shared hobby over consistency. Enjoyment does not always mean fun, sad movies for example can be very enjoyable. Difficult, punishing games can be very enjoyable - I love them - without them always being being fun. I remain convinced, though, that mere waiting on chance to proceed is enjoyable for very few people
- it does not serve as a break for RP, as the crowbarring person has to tediously hit the crowbar quickslot and use it on the door in a set and exact pace. I did try to emote my characters frustration or how she attempts to solve each of the six, seven doors we had to pass, but I couldn't find time to type in the 6 second intervals. And while the mage of the group might find time for a potty break or whatever, the person solving the problem is stuck doing the chore. Dungeon breaks - in my opinion, should just be planned by the group. And dungeon RP should hopefully happen frequently, but by choice, not by force

Oh, and to be clear - only doors. With chest, there are apparant and important gameplay balance consequences for the use of random chance.

I do like the idea of a take 20 for crowbars, perhaps it could work something similar to traps and locks? If there is combat or what-have-you you can't take 20. Perhaps even adding a possibility to break something if your strength is waay too low compared to the dc

The Take 20 consistency point isn't really a contra-argument, actually; it's really an argument for change.

Because there's no down side to failing a crowbar on a door (unlike a chest), you ought to be able to Take 20. That's what the Take 20 rule exists for, to save you having to roll 20 times when there's no penalty for critical failure, and it's why Rogues are allowed to do so outside of combat.

So really, to be consistent, the system ought either be changed to allow Taking 20 for crowbars outside of combat, or some negative penalty upon critical failure (e.g. the crowbar breaks, or the user takes a point of STR damage, etc.)

I like this idea!

Yes, please.

I get the idea the rogues are... less fun on this server, due to the proclivity of sneak attack immune undead and constructs, but the way the systems have gone about promoting them is, how you say... poorly thought out.

At the moment, you really require a rogue to do anything past a relatively low-bar of character level. This is poorly thought out as it more or less holds everybody hostage if they want to adventure past a certain content point. "Nope, don't have that one guy, can't do anything other than sit around with our thumb up our bums today."

This is a bad idea, simply because NWN is a dying game that's playerbase is bleeding away. What are we going to do as that time "we can't adventure because not enough players for rogue population" steadily grows til it's near-impossible to get anything done past level 12 at any time on the clock? That is an eventuality, you know. Maybe a year from now, two, two and a half?

Dungeons and systems need reworked to think of the future. The systems shouldn't hold up an entire server because no one chose that one class.

It's bad enough one character (apparently, so I am told) cannot cross-class and employ items to be a "poor man's" rogue and enable adventure. Server health will fail when we get to the point no one can do much of anything when numbers dwindle and of those left, almost no one chose Rogue.


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