Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt

[APorg]

Next on the chopping block is Timestop right?

Time Stop has already been changed to bring it in line with the books.

[buyonegetonefree]

To make full impression and fully understand how new spell is going to work I'd like to test it in pvp situations and against pve content.
So far,  it seems as unbalanced as GS was.
GS made you undetectable by any mean, which indeed was way more powerful than it should be.
Character under Jaunt spell will be visible because of simple potion (DC 20) and could be hurt/killed with simple low level spell,  like magic missile.
That's if we look from pvp perspective.

If we look on it from pve perspective,  new spell lost it's initial purpose to conceal character from hostile actions of foes in dungeons entirely.
The majority of dungeon inhabitants got a script that cause them to cast true seeing/see invisibility spells as soon as invisible character will be nearby. Some monsters got instant ability to see invisibility.
That would mean characters,  who supposed to be undetectable,  will be chased/attacked with magic  by hoards of monsters  living in dungeons.  The very moment jaunt effect end - character die because of massive blast of different spells throwed into its back.

Also, to clarify,  does Jaunt provides immunity to any form of damage except magical one? If yes,  beside listed spells,  like various type of magic missiles,  it can be affected by radiant assault and phantasmal killer, right?

[Miuo]

Very much for this.

[BraveSirRobin]

I suppose the only remorseful feeling I have towards this change is that it seems like a lot of spells are having their time shortened significantly or are being replaced by other spells that have much shorter times. It takes away from playing a grand, but subtle Wizard into something more in-line with an MMO Caster Class with very short and specific spells/preparations that encourages an ever-rushed playstyle. It took me a long time to realize Bull's Strength is not actually 1 hour per caster level now. It seems to last more like.. Three IG hours for my Wizard at his current level. Which is somewhat disappointing.

It makes it much harder to be a Wizard who keeps his spell-flinging on the down-low when so many effects are shortened into a tiny lifespan. The only spell I'm glad hasn't been foiled is Polymorph, because I can be an Owl for extended periods of time without consequence. But that's only because... Who mechanically makes use of Polymorph? 

[MAB77]

I suppose the only remorseful feeling I have towards this change is that it seems like a lot of spells are having their time shortened significantly or are being replaced by other spells that have much shorter times. It takes away from playing a grand, but subtle Wizard into something more in-line with an MMO Caster Class with very short and specific spells/preparations that encourages an ever-rushed playstyle. It took me a long time to realize Bull's Strength is not actually 1 hour per caster level now. It seems to last more like.. Three IG hours for my Wizard at his current level. Which is somewhat disappointing.

It makes it much harder to be a Wizard who keeps his spell-flinging on the down-low when so many effects are shortened into a tiny lifespan. The only spell I'm glad hasn't been foiled is Polymorph, because I can be an Owl for extended periods of time without consequence. But that's only because... Who mechanically makes use of Polymorph? 

Consider though that the decision to balance some buffing spells to a 1 turn + 1 round level also increased many a good spell duration. I'm not hearing too much complaints about Haste not being 1 round/level anymore. And 1 turn + 1 round level is far from being a tiny spell duration, something tells me they are still the most powerful characters on the server. The extend spell feat (greatest spellcasting feat IMHO) will do much to overcome your perception that those spells do not last long enough btw.

[ILLY6666]

This change can't come soon enough. +1

[Norture]

Consider though that the decision to balance some buffing spells to a 1 turn + 1 round level also increased many a good spell duration. I'm not hearing too much complaints about Haste not being 1 round/level anymore. And 1 turn + 1 round level is far from being a tiny spell duration, something tells me they are still the most powerful characters on the server. The extend spell feat (greatest spellcasting feat IMHO) will do much to overcome your perception that those spells do not last long enough btw.

These are my thoughts (although IMO cleric is still more powerful than wizard). I've not had an issue with spell durations. Extend really does make a difference, and in level appropriate dungeons (unless you're grinding through multiclassing hell) the durations should be good enough to get you from rest period to rest period.


Regarding this though:

It makes it much harder to be a Wizard who keeps his spell-flinging on the down-low when so many effects are shortened into a tiny lifespan.

Wizards are a pretty powerful class. I think it's unreasonable to expect that you can entirely buff away class weakness. There are some core spells that actually are hour/level durations such as ultravision, protection from alignment and stoneskin that can provide you with perpetual defense. You just won't always be able to carry 200 lbs of stuff or always be invisible or always be able to see invisible things, which is fair. It's part of playing the class and you plan around it.  Wizards are like Batman, they're strong as long as they're prepared. And you need to be on top of being prepared.

[Aduial]

Honestly I like this change, but I think the spell should be in the sixth circle and not in the seventh

just my two cents

[BraveSirRobin]

Regarding this though:

It makes it much harder to be a Wizard who keeps his spell-flinging on the down-low when so many effects are shortened into a tiny lifespan.

Wizards are a pretty powerful class. I think it's unreasonable to expect that you can entirely buff away class weakness. There are some core spells that actually are hour/level durations such as ultravision, protection from alignment and stoneskin that can provide you with perpetual defense. You just won't always be able to carry 200 lbs of stuff or always be invisible or always be able to see invisible things, which is fair. It's part of playing the class and you plan around it.  Wizards are like Batman, they're strong as long as they're prepared. And you need to be on top of being prepared.

I can understand mechanically why you would be inclined to reduce the lengths of some of the more utilitarian spells that Wizards/Sorcerers get. I'm not arguing that or even refuting it. Thematically, it makes playing a Wizard/Sorcerer a little more annoying as a whole. On tabletop, you would have - A day, some limited encounters set up by your DM, and time was relevant. You may have ten or twelve hours of supernatural Bull's Strength on your Wizard, but for the sake of story flow that almost never becomes an issue or even closely watched. Whatever events you may be personally partaking in at the speed humans would interact are accounted for, and you will not feel the need to suddenly plop down and cheekily check your shoe or whatever it happens to be, to keep up the arcane facade. It's just there, you're a Wizard. It's what you do.

Here, however, people are still interacting at a similar speed - if not slower due to OOC distractions or slow typing speeds. Only now, time is extremely sensitive. An hour passes in about seven minutes, and you might have about three hours to kill with a standard Bull's Strength or six with an Extended Bull's Strength. It seems to scale with the rest times of various level ranges fairly well. So instead of a smooth, dynamic experience at least moderately akin to Tabletop, you end up with a lot of things falling short and forcing your Wizard to essentially "Memorize his spellbook" every three hours to keep it up. Which I really don't have a clue how to play off except maybe being mentally fatigued and needing a moment to recollect myself -- Because the mechanic it's supposed to represent has been molested from figuring out your spells at dawn and making them last until dusk, to flipping to your arcane cliff notes every three hours because you're extremely bad at what you're doing. 


The only big impact I have ever noticed is now my dungeon runs are done on an extremely tight clock and we all have to rest every 2-3 hours on the spot to prevent spells from failing mid-combat. Otherwise, you can just rest it off, always.

tl;dr - I don't disagree with your balance ideas, just every time I see a spell get shortened I cringe because that's another time I have to break the flow of a scene or event, or a dungeon to check my arcane cliffnotes. Even if it's something for the better like Greater Sanctuary turning into Ethereal Jaunt.

[Zwickelfaust]

Honestly I like greater sanctuary, but people tend to use it like an ultra invisibility. There is one spell that I've noticed can counteract GS, and that's a well placed wall of dispell. The trouble is that you kinda have to judge where the person is and or where their path is leading. Entering the wall instantly breaks GS. I think that reducing the duration of GS would be the best bet. People would be forced to use it as more of an escape due to its shorter duration instead of using it and being completely invisible for hours at a time. That's my thoughts anyway.

[peps]

Was is the intent of the spell? Given its properties, it doesn't feel like a substitute for GS, but rather it just happens to be the replacement to fill an empty slot. From a gameplay standpoint, it seems like a good re-positioning spell (given you can't be affected by crowd control). However, its duration says otherwise. If we're willing to homebrew a bit given NWN engine limitations, why not give some sort of movement speed buff (e.g. 20%)? It helps justify the duration for our relatively fast-paced combat and the inability to walk through objects.

[peps]

--

[RedwizardD]

This looks a painful change for PvE on already frail characters.

[Nemesis 24]

Not quite.  With immunity to all but magic type damage, it gives them a very potent out to escape a situation.  At the moment its a bit of a mess.

[RedwizardD]

Could the duration possibly be increased through? It's so short it will basically have to be extended to even be usable.

[Legion XXI]

I think the duration is fine, if you can't escape a situation in real life 2+ minutes of being immune to melee attacks, elemental damage, able to run through enemies, and invisible, then your enemy was just clearly way more prepared than you were and you should take the L.

[Arawn]

I think the duration is fine, if you can't escape a situation in real life 2+ minutes of being immune to melee attacks, elemental damage, able to run through enemies, and invisible, then your enemy was just clearly way more prepared than you were and you should take the L.

Indeed, it starts at one minute and forty-two seconds, which should be more than enough time for you to get the heck away.

[Iridni Ren]

Current GS is a pretty much a mess, I agree, and very buggy.

I would like to repeat, however, that this nerf of a spell also affects clerics way more than wizards/sorcerers. The latter could not even use GS until 15th level, whereas clerics receive GS at 11th--meaning many, many more clerics are affected by the change. A 15th level MU/Sorc has a lot more options than an 11th level cleric. If Ethereal Jaunt is added as a 7th level spell for clerics, 11th and 12th level clerics simply lose one of their current options.

Finally, in terms of the spell being viewed primarily as an escape hatch, another incidental way clerics are hurt is this: currently GS is on the same level as heal, which can be spontaneously cast. That means a cleric can have GS available for escape, but still have heal available as an alternative if the cleric doesn't have to use GS. At 7th level slots, the cleric doesn't seem to have a similar flexibility. That means clerics will be much less likely to prepare it and have it ready to use as an escape.

Yes, the answer to all my remarks can easily be, "Tough luck." But as this change is meant as a rebalancing of a spell  I'll quote Soren's original post (emphasis mine):

Not only because there are so many factors involved that it's hard to assess the actual utility and power level, but equally because whenever we change something in one place, it easily end up having unforeseen consequences elsewhere.

...What we didn't fully consider back then though was that this in turn meant that the spell was no longer able to spot people that cast Greater Sanctuary, and consequently, that has become a form of "certain win" spell for avoiding detection. It virtually guarantees you to be able to flee just about any situation.

As these reasons for changing GS all relate to the spell (and not to any class in particular), I want to reiterate that it should not hurt one class that uses it more than it hurts others. (Changing the escape hatch to a 7th level spell versus 8th actually helps wizards/sorcerers.)

[Norture]

I also wouldn't call casters fragile either. By the time a wizard or sorcerer can cast greater sanctuary, they can also cast premonition, shadow shield, spell mantle, and countless other defensive spells. There just isn't a singular I-win button if you get into trouble, you need to use spells that fit the situation. And ultimately, mages can haste and flee.

[Troukk]

Am I wrong or will this spell change wizards from undetectable sneaks into unkillable tanks?

There are dungeons where the enemies will see you and try to hit you, for 0 damage. Just be an immortal wall and let some ranged buddy to the dirty work.

[APorg]

Am I wrong or will this spell change wizards from undetectable sneaks into unkillable tanks?

There are dungeons where the enemies will see you and try to hit you, for 0 damage. Just be an immortal wall and let some ranged buddy to the dirty work.

Clerics and Wizards

That's a fear that was raised, yeah.  I think EO or MAB commented that they'd ensure the Jaunt ends if your character causes any damage, including through auras; and hopefully they'll use scripts to make PCs ignored by most NPCs while under the effect. The same Dev already voiced the opinion that using Jaunt to tank would be an exploit, so hopefully there'll be systems in place to prevent that.

[lakhena]

Can I suggest this spell as a replacement for the loss of a lvl 6 cleric spell --

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWalk.htm

I would decrease the duration and remove or severely limit the ability to have others be affected, but it seems like a great escape spell. It looks like folks could still be impacted by area spells, since this can be dispelled.

I'm suggesting this because there aren't a lot of spells to choose from at lvl 6 for clerics to begin with.

Even if you decide this spell is too much, I wouldn't mind any spell to replace the loss of a spell for clerics at that level.  Forbiddance is a great spell. Geas would be another really interesting one.

[EO]

Clerics are already getting a new Regenerate spell at that level. We're not adding more spells at this point.

[Crimson Shuriken]

This is a great decision. I'm definitely for it.