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Author Topic: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt  (Read 8293 times)

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« on: January 19, 2018, 11:03:37 AM »
Dear fellow prisoners of the mists,

As should be obvious to anyone who's spend some time with this game, attaining balance between classes, spells, feats etc. is a challenge. Not only because there are so many factors involved that it's hard to assess the actual utility and power level, but equally because whenever we change something in one place, it easily end up having unforeseen consequences elsewhere.

One such case is True Seeing. In general, we aim to balance out things against each other in ways that generate varied gameplay with complexity and rich in nuances, where everyone has their weak spots and no one can feel too certain about their safety and superiority. This keeps people on their toes and adheres well to the themes of Ravenloft.

For those very reasons, we (long ago) nerfed True Seeing to not make it completely superior against any level of stealthiness, rather working as a more powerful version of see invisible that additionally granted large bonuses to spot and search. It gives the caster an edge, but not certainty.

What we didn't fully consider back then though was that this in turn meant that the spell was no longer able to spot people that cast Greater Sanctuary, and consequently, that has become a form of "certain win" spell for avoiding detection. It virtually guarantees you to be able to flee just about any situation.

Therefore, we are considering replacing Greater Sanctuary with something similar though still vulnerable, namely Ethereal Jaunt. This is the stats of the spell as we currently envision it:

Quote
Spell Level: Cleric 7; Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Innate Level: 7
School: Transmutation
Descriptor:
Component: Verbal, Somatic
Range: Personal
Area of Effect / Target: Caster
Duration: 1 Turn + 1 Round / Level
Save: None.
Spell Resistance: No

The caster becomes ethereal. An ethereal creature is invisible and insubstantial. As an insubstantial creature, the caster can move through other living creatures (but not walls or objects) and cannot be affected by physical or magical damage or effects. However, force effects (Magic Missile, Isaac's Greater Magic Storm and Isaac's Lesser Magic Storm) and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally since their effects extend onto the Near Ethereal. An ethereal creature cannot attack other creatures, acquire items or gold, or cast spells. Casting spells or performing a hostile action will make the etherealness vanish.

Please share your thoughts on this. We of course realize that it may be frustrating to those who've come to rely on the spell, but we hope that you can at least follow our reasoning and try to see things in a larger perspective here. We don't take lightly in nerfing popular things like this and we only propose it because we genuinely think it would end up benefiting everyone (or at least the vast majority) in the long rung.

Sincerely yours. For real and truly!
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 11:36:21 AM by Zarathustra217 »

APorg

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2018, 11:12:37 AM »
Heck, I was going to suggest that Greater Sanctuary's duration needed to be revised downwards in line with shorter duration spells like Haste, so I think this makes sense.

Can you clarify how this etherealness will work? Will it be like the current Greater Sanctuary or will it be a custom form, like PC spirits when they're dead?
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2018, 11:23:22 AM »
I'm very excited about this change.  I think it addresses a lot of the problems people were having with the spell, and with how it was being used.

It still remains a useful escape/panic spell, but is no longer as powerful as it previously was and can't be used to just freely move around 100% undetectable for long durations.  Also, the addition of the invisibility effect means people will be less confused about whether or not they should "see" you.

As well, this indirectly makes actual stealth skills/feats/general investment more important if you want to truly be hard to detect for long periods of time.  Nice little buff for the actual sneaky types.

Nice work guys  :thumbup:

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2018, 11:26:12 AM »
I would support the change. I have a question out of curiosity, will the target become invisible or will they become transparent?

APorg

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2018, 11:27:03 AM »
Some further technical questions:

Will Ethereal Jaunt replace Greater Sanctuary in the spell index, or be created as a new spell and Greater Sanctuary "blanked out"?

Will Greater Sanctuary scrolls remain in game or be replaced by script with Ethereal Jaunt scrolls?

Will Wizards or Sorcerors who have learnt the spell through a level up be re-levelled? (I assume yes, if Ethereal Jaunt comes out with the HAK PAK).

Will Wizards who learnt the spell via scroll be re-imbursed an Ethereal Jaunt scroll?
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

APorg

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2018, 11:27:44 AM »
I would support the change. I have a question out of curiosity, will the target become invisible or will they become transparent?

IIRC ethereal means invisible...
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2018, 11:29:09 AM »
That's right, Aprog. They'll be invisible and immune to physical, but not force damage (magic missile, etc) for the duration or until broken.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 12:35:09 PM by Arawn »
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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2018, 11:31:17 AM »
Currently, GS is a 6th circle spell for clerics, and an 8th circle spells for wizards, sorcerers.

As this spell is intended to be inferior and meant to nerf the spell rather than a class, it doesn't seem logical that clerics would receive it later and wizards and sorcerers earlier than they currently receive GS.

Otherwise, would it still require hostiling everyone in order to use successfully? With a duration this shortened, that's going to be even more of a pain.

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2018, 11:35:44 AM »
Nope, since it's just invis, no hostiling required.
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APorg

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2018, 11:45:44 AM »
As this spell is intended to be inferior and meant to nerf the spell rather than a class, it doesn't seem logical that clerics would receive it later and wizards and sorcerers earlier than they currently receive GS.

Really it's the other way around; Ethereal Jaunt is a canon DnD spell, so it's not "intended" to be inferior. Rather, Greater Sanctuary is particular to NWN and was presumably intended to favour clerics for a reason you'd have to check with the original developers about..
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― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

Iridni Ren

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2018, 11:54:14 AM »
In this context it is intended to be inferior. The Devs are introducing it because Greater Sanctuary (the spell) is now seen as over-powered.

But if clerics receive the replacement at a higher level than previously (and have to spend a higher level spell slot to use it), then the change will affect them (the class) disproportionately to wizards and sorcerers (who will get to use a lower slot and receive the spell earlier).

Unless clerics are considered currently more powerful than wizards and sorcerers, this is an unintended consequence of fixing the spell that I'm pointing out.

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2018, 11:59:06 AM »
Can you add a herbalism recipe for this, too?
Yes, sweet lemonade. Oh, sweet lemonade.

MAB77

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Etheral Jaunt
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2018, 12:01:51 PM »
Some further technical questions:

Will Ethereal Jaunt replace Greater Sanctuary in the spell index, or be created as a new spell and Greater Sanctuary "blanked out"?

Will Greater Sanctuary scrolls remain in game or be replaced by script with Ethereal Jaunt scrolls?

Will Wizards or Sorcerors who have learnt the spell through a level up be re-levelled? (I assume yes, if Ethereal Jaunt comes out with the HAK PAK).

Will Wizards who learnt the spell via scroll be re-imbursed an Ethereal Jaunt scroll?

EO and other DMs would be better placed to anwers the more technical side of your questions, but the intent is to remove GS altogether, including scrolls.

The plan is to have this implemented at the time of the HAK release, As a mandatory relevel of all chars will be required, it will be easy to pick it up on level ups.

For those who learned the spell through a scroll, or have copies of the scrolls now, I suggest you take screenshots to prove it. As the goal is to replace a spell, not punish anyone, I'm fairly certain the DMs will accommodate you and replace those scrolls.
Best Regards!
MAB

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2018, 12:03:56 PM »
No potables above 6th circle please. Ethereal Jaunt is fine as a spell. Also good work on the spell and decision.
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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2018, 12:06:42 PM »
Can you add a herbalism recipe for this, too?

It may change at some point, but this spell is not currently considered to be added in potion form.
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MAB

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2018, 12:07:28 PM »
Best thing ever.
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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2018, 12:11:10 PM »
I do not agree with the extremely short duration. I don't frequently use greater sanctuary, but I don't beleive it's necessarily broken.  The spell glitches half the time anyway.

If it's getting changed anyway, will there be immunity to elemental damage as well?

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2018, 12:12:33 PM »
Unless clerics are considered currently more powerful than wizards and sorcerers, this is an unintended consequence of fixing the spell that I'm pointing out.

Whether it's intended or not, it's perfectly logical and consistent. The aberration was Greater Sanctuary; it's not Ethereal Jaunt.

As to whether clerics are in a bad place at the moment; no. They never have been a weak class. They are currently missing their Domain-only spell slot (and I would champion anything that adds them back in appropriately), which makes them weaker than they ought to be; but they're still a strong class.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

APorg

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2018, 12:16:14 PM »
I do not agree with the extremely short duration. I don't frequently use greater sanctuary, but I don't beleive it's necessarily broken.  The spell glitches half the time anyway.

The PnP version of Ethereal Jaunt basically has the same duration as Haste.

Quote
If it's getting changed anyway, will there be immunity to elemental damage as well?

Good news here. Quoting the spell:

"[A]n insubstantial creature [...] cannot be affected by physical or magical damage or effects. However, force effects (Magic Missile, Isaac's Greater Magic Storm and Isaac's Lesser Magic Storm) and abjurations affect an ethereal creature normally since their effects extend onto the Near Ethereal."
« Last Edit: January 19, 2018, 12:38:50 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2018, 01:11:37 PM »
Excellent stuff.

+1

APorg

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2018, 02:24:01 PM »
Another question:

Currently, Greater Sanctuary lets you open doors and Open Locks without breaking it. The logic behind opening doors is that it's supposed to let you go through obstacles, though admittedly, being able to lockpick under GS is a little silly.

The wording suggests that Ethereal Jaunt won't let you pass through doors; will that be so?
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2018, 02:59:02 PM »
I think you might be solid enough to actually open doors. If you can't pass through them, you should be able to exert enough force on them to open them

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2018, 03:10:26 PM »
" An ethereal creature is invisible, insubstantial, and capable of moving in any direction, even up or down, albeit at half normal speed. As an insubstantial creature, you can move through solid objects, including living creatures. An ethereal creature can see and hear on the Material Plane, but everything looks gray and ephemeral. Sight and hearing onto the Material Plane are limited to 60 feet. "

I think if the spell is going to be changed to Ethereal Jaunt, it should be changed to the actual spell, and not a "nerfed" version. The passing through objects should be retained, in my opinion.

Beyond this, I think this will be an interesting change! :)
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MAB77

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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 03:18:45 PM »
It is the game engine that prevents any possibility of moving through solid objects. There is no way around that.
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Re: Replacing Greater Sanctuary with Ethereal Jaunt
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2018, 03:20:24 PM »
It is the game engine that prevents any possibility of moving through solid objects. There is no way around that.

Indeed. Since we couldn't simulate it, we decided to make it WYSIWYG.
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