Author Topic: Muling  (Read 1884 times)

Iridni Ren

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Muling
« on: February 09, 2018, 02:49:12 AM »
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Whenever you transfer an item, to anyone, under any circumstances, the server logs it. If it is muling, the server flags it, logs it, and an alarm is set off in DM channel for all DMs currently online to see. Even three-way trades are still recorded. If you mule, it will be recorded, you will be identified, and if you do it twice you will receive a ban up to and including indefinite.

Arawn posted the above in Discord, and I got to thinking....

If all this is already in place, can't muling be prevented mechanically? I ask because--although I've never had anything enchanted--I understand that an enchanted item can only be equipped by the player it was enchanted by.

Could the current script that fires when muling occurs similarly prevent the item from being transferred in the first place or prevent the item from being equipped--however the enchanting script works?

This would eliminate the need for DM monitoring as well as keep players from accidentally muling and the DMs then having to judge player intent.

(If every transfer is logged, then over time it seems as though any highly sought after item that has been on the server for a long while will eventually start setting off alarms unintentionally because of the finite number of players.)

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A minor Glamour

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Re: Muling
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 04:57:28 AM »
The scripts records a log and notify the DM's, they don't prevent the trade taking place, I doubt that's even possible to do, but I don't really see any need to change anything, things seem to be working well.

Arawn

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Re: Muling
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2018, 06:02:49 AM »
We’ve considered something like this before. However, for exactly the reasons you mention, we decided to keep the current system. A machine can’t distinguish between accidental and purposeful; most of the time, a human DM can.
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Norture

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Re: Muling
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2018, 08:34:16 AM »
Envision a scenario where a friends' party wipes. You log in to go and rescue them on your high level character. Unknown to you at the time, your new character picked up your friends' weapons weeks prior after a low level dungeon went poorly. When you go do the rescue, you set off the muling script, even though you're not muling.

This scenario happens way more frequently than you'd think.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Muling
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2018, 12:31:04 PM »
Envision a scenario where a friends' party wipes. You log in to go and rescue them on your high level character. Unknown to you at the time, your new character picked up your friends' weapons weeks prior after a low level dungeon went poorly. When you go do the rescue, you set off the muling script, even though you're not muling.

This scenario happens way more frequently than you'd think.

This seems to be a currently gray area. I know it happens, and I know I would do it (and would want someone to do it for me), but I also have seen indications that it's frowned upon because it can be very OOC. It's specifically against the rules to use your own PC to rescue another of your PCs, isn't it? Asking a friend to log in and rescue you seems to be in the same spirit, if not the same in execution. That a friend can rescue you but not your weapon makes the party wipe have a more serious consequence :P

(Please don't interpret the above as a request that such rescues be outlawed; I like it the way it is and being able to help other PCs helps balance the inevitable conflicts among us.)

My personal preference, though, would be to enforce rules through mechanics whenever possible so as to avoid requiring DM intervention and punishment. As a player, I don't like being fussed at; if I were a DM, having to fuss at players would seem to be one of the least enjoyable parts of the job. It takes away from the time DMs can spend doing more creative and fun things for players.

When Arawn wrote the following, I thought it expressed a similar weariness with the number of times DMs were having to make these calls:

Quote
Please, we're all here to play. Just following the rules isn't too much to ask.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2018, 12:34:04 PM by Iridni Ren »

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Arawn

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Re: Muling
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2018, 12:59:05 PM »
The weariness is more that players can and should render any intervention or judgment on our part unnecessary. We all share this community. We should all feel responsible for making sure fair play is guaranteed to all.

There is no one-size-fits-all mechanical solution to the problem (and it is something the dev team spent some serious time thinking about a year or so ago). We could port all muled items to a box that DMs would then be able to sort out, but that makes more work for DMs. We could prevent a character from holding onto any muled item, but then in a dungeon rescue someone might be unable to grab an important item because they’d once touched it on another char, and it would be lost to the reinit script, forcing us to once again track it down and restore it (which for some crafted items is a real pain bordering on a major headache). Each way makes work for DMs. Therefore the best approach is: just don’t mule.
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Re: Muling
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2018, 01:05:37 PM »
No no, you don't rescue your own corpse. That's against the rules. You -are- allowed to do OOC rescues though. Here's a diagram:



So it's not muling exactly, he's not keeping anything. He just sets off the trigger because he forgot he touched the weapon before. This is a very, very common occurrence, and in the past DMs would just ignore it if this happened and they decided it wasn't actual muling. This of course could have changed over the last 2 years, but I don't believe it has.

I can't stress enough how common it is for this to happen. It's a complete accident, and it's pretty easy for DMs to determine if it's accidental or not just by watching or asking players.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Muling
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2018, 01:55:55 PM »
Haha :D I just wish you'd made the PC be Iridni so it would much more "IC."

;)

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Silas Rotleaf

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Re: Muling
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2018, 07:30:18 AM »
No no, you don't rescue your own corpse. That's against the rules. You -are- allowed to do OOC rescues though. Here's a diagram:



So it's not muling exactly, he's not keeping anything. He just sets off the trigger because he forgot he touched the weapon before. This is a very, very common occurrence, and in the past DMs would just ignore it if this happened and they decided it wasn't actual muling. This of course could have changed over the last 2 years, but I don't believe it has.

I can't stress enough how common it is for this to happen. It's a complete accident, and it's pretty easy for DMs to determine if it's accidental or not just by watching or asking players.

Yay! One of my chars got used in part of the diagram!

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Re: Muling
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2018, 03:08:33 PM »
No no, you don't rescue your own corpse. That's against the rules. You -are- allowed to do OOC rescues though. Here's a diagram:



So it's not muling exactly, he's not keeping anything. He just sets off the trigger because he forgot he touched the weapon before. This is a very, very common occurrence, and in the past DMs would just ignore it if this happened and they decided it wasn't actual muling. This of course could have changed over the last 2 years, but I don't believe it has.

I can't stress enough how common it is for this to happen. It's a complete accident, and it's pretty easy for DMs to determine if it's accidental or not just by watching or asking players.

Yay! One of my chars got used in part of the diagram!
better a diagram than an example, if you catch me.

I know there's a few players who I play with regardless of character, and when we have to do each other's rescues, I am sure the mulling script is fired repeatedly. That's just rescues, though. We have to play it pretty safe and I remember at one point, I ended up separating stuff Cael gave Zidonne to sell so I didn't accidentally sell it to Pippin or Filibert, so I keep it in the 'Mika' bag. It get's muddy, and you really have to think about it. I also remember one time we bought some daggers from a merchant we didn't even know on any of our characters, and the mulling script went off because he had them once on another toon. They traveled! This is a good reason why you shouldn't give out your stuff when you close your character. I also spent a lot of time questioning others about where they got their items, making sure they didn't buy the from Zidonne before I take them.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2018, 03:10:21 PM by Tycat »
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Crimson Shuriken

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Re: Muling
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2018, 04:33:59 PM »
That example given is valid. I won't argue that no intent to mul was part of it.

As someone who has faced such situations before I am always mindful of that possibility and will purposely choose a different character to assist. The goal as I see it is to NOT make a DM break away from their current situation just to investigate or inquire. For those of you that may be unaware there is a series of messages that pop up on the DM channel (one per item usually, so potentially several if I recall correctly) and since it is a time sensitive investigation that benefits from seeing the real time actions of players, it may cause the DM to pause a scene to jump over and take a look.  Even if harmless, this is an annoyance to DM who may be immersed in roleplay or creating a scene or encounter.

To mindfully or willfully perform such a harmless muling knowing it may cost a DM time and concentration, while ultimately not rules averting or foul play, DOES have a knock on effect that is easily avoided with a bit of thoughtfulness. To this end, its preferable if players do not have multiple pcs that are in the same social circles but that is another topic perhaps.


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