Shapechange: Dragon gets real true seeing

[Phantasia]

If we weren't going to give Grimetrekker its appropriate blindsight ability, then I don't see why high level arcane casters, or people that even get their hands on Shapechange scrolls, should have access to blindsight.

[EO]

If we weren't going to give Grimetrekker its appropriate blindsight ability, then I don't see why high level arcane casters, or people that even get their hands on Shapechange scrolls, should have access to blindsight.

Grimetrekkers and RDDs.

[Phantasia]

If we weren't going to give Grimetrekker its appropriate blindsight ability, then I don't see why high level arcane casters, or people that even get their hands on Shapechange scrolls, should have access to blindsight.

Grimetrekkers and RDDs.

 

[APorg]

Stealth -has- a countermeasure, it’s called Detection skills. Considering you need at least 20 more stealth skills than detection skills, stealth is already disadvantaged.

If you don’t want to be spied on bring a bard or ranger or rogue with you or invest in detection, use detection spells (True Seeing, Insight, Amplify, Clairvoyance). Also True Seeing reveals every hidden or invisible creature, not just those standing next to you.

I've played both a detector and a stealther, I know how the system works. I don't misunderstand the system; I'm criticising it. The dev team has chosen to double down on the Stealth system as it is exists, effectively working within the 20/25 point margin; with the consequence that it is necessary to make Stealth gear rarer to compensate for how powerful Stealth is.

This impacts mostly new and low level characters; high levels, especially those with legacy items, aren't as bothered. In fact it probably helps them overall since some detector gear is still quite rare (the Spot rings in particular). Heck, you can create decent enchanted stealth gear. You can't create enchanted Spot gear.

Plus, it's the stealther that is choosing the engagement -- that is a big advantage. When a stealther is confident that there's nobody there with a decent detection score, he can move in for an auto-win. It's a consequence of embracing the system as it stands, and I don't like that we're taking away one of the risks.

And finally—resorting to borderline-OOC mechanics is bad, whether prompted by borderline-OOC mechanics or not.

Turning into a shape that has an ability you require is by far the most IC strategy of the many that are offered to counter stealth when you can't be sure of your Detection skills. It's considerably more IC than the common tactic of outrunning the stealther. Turning into a dragon is more obtrusive, but surely that should be addressed IC, not OOC.

Balancing stealth against detection is an age-old concern for the development team—but emphatically, both should require and reward investment. Shapechanging is free from the perspective of leveling and points distribution. Stealth is not.

Really, even this is an oversimplification. Classes that are meant to invest in Stealth are given points and in-class Skills to do so. Shapechanging does require an investment -- my shapechanging character can't multiclass. Sure, it's how I was going to build the caster anyway -- but Stealth is how most ranger/rogues are built, anyway.

If we weren't going to give Grimetrekker its appropriate blindsight ability, then I don't see why high level arcane casters, or people that even get their hands on Shapechange scrolls, should have access to blindsight.

Eh, the most consistent counter-point made, granted.

[Arawn]

Turning into a shape that has an ability you require is by far the most IC strategy of the many that are offered to counter stealth when you can't be sure of your Detection skills. It's considerably more IC than the common tactic of outrunning the stealther. Turning into a dragon is more obtrusive, but surely that should be addressed IC, not OOC.

I think you’ve misunderstood what problem I’m trying to solve—my concern here is that dragons literally don’t fit in some of the places the engine will let you change into a dragon, and people (read: NPCs) would certainly notice the addition of one house-sized lizard to most in-game buildings. There’s no easy way to fix it in the engine. The other stuff is janky, but not at all exploiting. Fixing the TS issue has an added bonus in that it will also remove almost all incentives to do this (Caveat: if there’s some RP scenario in which it needs to happen, you can always have a DM present to Shout the resulting explosion).

In any case we’ve run the numbers, we’ve tweaked the gear, and we’ve talked to many players. Stealth loses to detection at high levels. If you don’t like the idea of being suddenly ganked, there are any number of options to prevent it which are already balanced against stealth. We’ll happily tweak that balance if it doesn’t work out (and some feedback on item availability is a good way to start), but TS on dragon form is likely not how we’ll do it.

The argument about Grimetrekker is actually circular—we don’t give grimetrekker TS so we give nobody TS, therefore Grimetrekker shouldn’t have TS—but it speaks to the point we’ve been repeating. We took a decision a long time ago not to have un-nerfed TS available to players in this way. This is a glitch; it will be fixed.

[ILLY6666]

If we weren't going to give Grimetrekker its appropriate blindsight ability, then I don't see why high level arcane casters, or people that even get their hands on Shapechange scrolls, should have access to blindsight.

Grimetrekkers and RDDs.

But I want my blindsense *grabby hands* 

[Jamila]

Stealth -has- a countermeasure, it’s called Detection skills. Considering you need at least 20 more stealth skills than detection skills, stealth is already disadvantaged.

If you don’t want to be spied on bring a bard or ranger or rogue with you or invest in detection, use detection spells (True Seeing, Insight, Amplify, Clairvoyance). Also True Seeing reveals every hidden or invisible creature, not just those standing next to you.

Eeeeh. I've by no means seen every piece of gear in the game, but I'd honestly be skeptical if I even considered they were balanced as stealth vs detection. I've seen a lot of stealth gear with very high skill numbers on it with only a few bits of detection gear with moderate numbers on it, at best.

Even worse, most of the stealth gear others have shown me have rather useful combat mods on it, whereas most of the detection gear just has... detection (usually with penalties to other things, no such penalties on stealth gear that I've seen so far...).

Factor in the fact that even without gear at all, detection vs stealth isn't balanced to begin with (favoring stealth a lot) and, eh...

Halved die rolls (for no good reason), stacking camouflage spells that shouldn't, invis not working right, listen being functionally worthless in most situations due to bugs. I could go on, but there's a good reason why you never detect anyone but newbies in NWN. If you're a guy with maxed out listen or spot wearing everything, I highly doubt you're even in the same ballpark as a sneaker doing the same. Factor in engine flaws and even with the same scores, you're not going to detect him. 

I'm okay with a level 9 spell letting folks see you. Oozes and the like? Yes. I'm okay if Grimetrekker sees you (seriously, that class has nothing else going for it). RDDs? Uh, no. They don't get it in PnP and honestly get more than enough as is with all the bonuses (imo).

Greater Sanctuary really needs some work though. Going to the Ethereal is a big deal. It's dangerous on its own (honestly, Ravenloft's ethereal would be a nightmareland) and it's utterly useless for spying. You can't hear anything on the nearby plane but the loudest of sounds and telling one person from another is practically impossible unless they have some huge, definining trait. And yet I constantly notice people doing it to sit around spying on others all the time. Should most definitely make it so you cannot see whispers and talk channels while GS'd. Making it harder to see past 10 feet or so (aesthetically) also is more appropriate for the Border Ethereal.

[EO]

Dragon Disciples get blindsense in PnP which is what dragons get and is essentially in NwN terms the same as True Seeing.

Also I have no clue where your numbers come from for detection but most are in detection mode already to walk so roll a d20.

In any case in terms of balance we don’t want a single no-brainer spell to trump  skill when there’s already a counter in place.

[Philos]

Even worse, most of the stealth gear others have shown me have rather useful combat mods on it, whereas most of the detection gear just has... detection (usually with penalties to other things, no such penalties on stealth gear that I've seen so far...).

Could you elaborate on this? The amour with -4 con and daggers with - 2 damage and - 2 ab seem to disagree.

Halved die rolls (for no good reason)

The reason is you are not actively trying to detect anything and thus shouldn't receive a full bonus- and while we're on the subject, what PC doesn't use detect mode just for the walk animation?

stacking camouflage spells that shouldn't

They don't stack.

invis not working right

How so?

listen being functionally worthless in most situations due to bugs.

What bugs are these? The skill seems to function fine and I get a lot of mileage out of it.

If you're a guy with maxed out listen or spot wearing everything, I highly doubt you're even in the same ballpark as a sneaker doing the same. Factor in engine flaws and even with the same scores, you're not going to detect him.

Dedicated detection build have no issue reaching scores of 70+. 60 is easily reachable without a dedicated build. What engine flaws are these?

[MAB77]

[...]You can't create enchanted Spot gear.[...]

I'll try to find ways to correct that.

[APorg]

Dedicated detection build have no issue reaching scores of 70+. 60 is easily reachable without a dedicated build. What engine flaws are these?

60 is easily reachable by non-dedicated builds? 60 is a bard with 20 ranks, Amplify, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, 2 +5 rings and a +5 helmet. That _is_ a dedicated build.

[julienchab]

My mage got full spot gear, invested in spot every level I could and even with my max buffs, I cannot reach 60 spot. It's not that easy to get 60 spot, and definitly not doable if you dont invest in it.

[Philos]

15 skill points, amp - 20, clairvoyance/audience - 5, 2 Jackels rings - 10, helm  -5, necklace  - 4, owls - 2 , base wis bonus - 1

62 listen, level 12, no feats invested

not a dedicated build

(this is also excluding background bonuses)
 

[APorg]

15 skill points, amp - 20, clairvoyance/audience - 5, 2 Jackels rings - 10, helm  -5, necklace  - 4, owls - 2 , base wis bonus - 1

62 listen, level 12, no feats invested

not a dedicated build

(this is also excluding background bonuses)
 

You're spending 15 Skill ranks and it's a class that's excellent at Listen. Yes, 60 is a dedicated build.

[Legion XXI]

Without investing too much effort into what is now another stealth vs detect thread, I think the number 60 being thrown out caused people to hyperfocus on something that is entirely beside the point.  Usually 20-40 is all you need to spot the majority of sneaks.  Most sneaks these days aren't running that ultra high end gear, required levels, and 3 stealth feats needed to get 80+ stealth stats.  I'm sure you'll disagree anyways but there's no accounting for that I suppose.  Detect is not in a bad place.  I've never had trouble not getting sneak'd on and I've never had to shift into a dragon in an inn room to do it.  Like let's not forget that the entire sneak mechanic can be defeated by just moving at running speed, lol.   

[Philos]

That is not a dedicated build. That is half-assed cheese build that will bust 95% of stealthers with minimal investment at level 12.

A dedicated detection build would look like this:

{15 Bard}

18 skill points

14 wis - 2

empowered owls - 3

background feat - 1

Gear (Rings, helm, necklace) - 19

alertness and sf: listen feats - 5

amp - 20

Clairvoyance/audience - 5

Bard song /w song of heart-  4

77 listen

This is a dedicated build that will shred any and all stealth by lvl 15.

[APorg]

That is not a dedicated build. That is half-assed cheese build that will bust 95% of stealthers with minimal investment at level 12.

Minimal investment? We're talking about a class with the best Listen spell, with all spells up, with Ranks and Listen gear. That's not half-assed, that's the majority of players who aren't veterans, playing the easiest class to get to 60. Choose most other classes and getting to 60 is a major, major deal.

This is the other issue here: veterans vs. the average players.

[Philos]

You need feats and an ability score investment that compromises other parts of of your character to be -dedicated-  Gear and spells are not investments- they are swapped out as soon as their have served their purpose.

If you want a character dedicated to detection- make that character and don't compromise. Get the feats, skills, gear and spells you need. You need it all.

[APorg]

OK, I'm not arguing on your terms anymore. The person you were replying to is playing a Monk, not a Bard, so won't have access to Amplify. That's 20 right off. Suddenly reaching 40/50 is a big deal. Anyone who's played a Spotter, as Chab pointed out, also knows it takes hard work, investment and great gear to reach Spot 50, let alone 60, at level 20.

If you think that 60 detection is no big deal, then you need to realise that you're coming into this subject with a heavy veteran's bias. There is a place for discussing the fringe min-maxed scenarios, but it's a misrepresentation to paint them as mainstream. How many characters are actually build that way? I bet you could count the number of high level WIS 14 Bards with the Empowered Spell feat on this server on one hand.

And this is relevant because it shapes the paradigm in which Stealth is discussed. Are we catering this server to the 40 - 60 range mainstream or the 60 - 80 range elite? This is the context into which decisions like "How much Spot should the Dragon shape give instead of True Seeing" will be made.

[Phantasia]

Ain't nothin' stopping that monk from multiclassing into a PrC that gets UMD.

[Iridni Ren]

I find it inherently self-contradictory to complain that a 9th level spell is OP'd...

And then say a "half-assed cheese build that will bust 95% of stealthers with minimal investment at level 12" can do the same thing.

[Philos]

I'm saying they're are both low investment and exceptionally powerful. The difference is that on one of them you get a dice roll for a chance at success and is a reasonable ability for a player character to have.

[Yes, Dear]

[...]You can't create enchanted Spot gear.[...]

I'll try to find ways to correct that.

Can you correct the enchanted stealth gear too?

[Norture]

Competitive enchanted stealth gear would be good. Right now the pieces of it I've seen are just not worth it.

[MAB77]

Competitive enchanted stealth gear would be good. Right now the pieces of it I've seen are just not worth it.

You'll need to bring me convincing arguments and proofs here. Enchanting usually boost bonus skills on an item by +3 and that is exactly as intended, that's in addition to other bonuses like increased AC and Saving Throws which usually comes with enchanting. Therefore it is easy to reach +5 to stealth skills with enchanted gear which is, in my humble opinion, more than decent on an item and brings them on par with the more powerful loot drops on the server.