Author Topic: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields  (Read 10954 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2018, 03:18:06 PM »
You're really cherry-picking for this. Your example rogue will have decent AC but it'll never hit anything. You're dual-wielding two medium-sized weapons that don't take advantage of weapon finesse. You're going to have like 12 ab at level 20, and you're going to have wasted a lot of feats to get there. If you were to fight your first and your second example against each other, the second one would win all day.
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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2018, 08:30:44 PM »
Maybe it's just me, and everybody knows that I don't do math, but from a nonmath standpoint I happen to think that it makes more sense that individuals wouldn't be often using tower shields anyways.

Nobody gets good with a tower shield lol. It's a giant wall you stick on front of you and poke spears around.  How "good" can u really get with a tower shield anyways?

Logically speaking, one man with a regular shield versus one man with a tower shield, I'd venture to say that the man wielding a smaller shield would win pretty much every time. It makes sense to me that people who train with without anchoring themselves to a wall would generally have more opportunity to train and become more skillful.

Tower shields were never intended to be used by a single person. They were meant to be used by several.

I don't even know if it's possible, but what I would like to see is that each individual tower shield in a party increases everybody's AC by 1.

Probably not doable but man that would be some amazing scripting.

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2018, 10:59:42 PM »
A point that Keyser made before he edited that I thought was valid is that parrying with a shield IMO would be more of (or at least as much as) a strength-based skill as dexterity.

Perhaps instead of requiring a 15+ Dex it could require a 13+ Str and 13+ Dex? Or some other combination?

In game, shields tend to be very heavy. Regardless of a PC's coordination, I don't think she could whip a shield around if she's weak. The bigger the shield, the more this would be true.

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2018, 11:03:55 PM »
A point that Keyser made before he edited that I thought was valid is that parrying with a shield IMO would be more of (or at least as much as) a strength-based skill as dexterity.

Perhaps instead of requiring a 15+ Dex it could require a 13+ Str and 13+ Dex? Or some other combination?

In game, shields tend to be very heavy. Regardless of a PC's coordination, I don't think she could whip a shield around if she's weak. The bigger the shield, the more this would be true.

This is something I wholeheartedly agree with. To sacrifice other areas significantly for a single feat is self-destructive. 13 DEX would be great; it doesn't encouraging the 12 DEX powerbuilding, but isn't too cumbersome. 

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2018, 10:45:45 PM »
I don't understand mechanics that well, but I do feel tower shields should be a party buff kind of item. Soley due to their role as a hunk of metal being strictly used in groups.
Maybe if you give it an AC group "aura" buff within a few meters, it'd validate it's usage and weight.

It's like what Blight said.
"HOLD THE LINE!" ...would have a really awesome new meaning

poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 10:45:45 AM »
Reposting (yesyerday I was kinda drunk hehehe)

So, I got to lvl 4 with my fighter and saw the feat Shield Parry on the list, so I took it. But it doesn't seem to be working.

She has 5 ranks in Parry, +2 from dex & +3 from gloves, final modifier on Parry skill +10.

According to the feat description she should get a +2 bonus to her AC when using a shield, or at least  +1, if only the ranks count. But she doesnt get any bonus.

Last night when I made the first post, I thought I could be doing something wrong, but today I tried with different shields and weapons,  with and without armor and still, no bonus at all.

I can take prints or even make a short video to show it.

I was very happy when I saw the feat cause I always thought that shields needed a boost. Hope this gets fixed soon.


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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 12:44:22 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.
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poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 03:01:54 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.


Yeah, Im so smart I forgot the shield ACP... I guess the feat is only useful on higher lvls, when you'll be able to bypass the huge penalties from armor and from the shield itself.


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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 03:10:46 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.


Yeah, Im so smart I forgot the shield ACP... I guess the feat is only useful on higher lvls, when you'll be able to bypass the huge penalties from armor and from the shield itself.

Or you can just wear lighter armour but keep your AC the same. It’s all about options.
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poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 05:32:51 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.


Yeah, Im so smart I forgot the shield ACP... I guess the feat is only useful on higher lvls, when you'll be able to bypass the huge penalties from armor and from the shield itself.

Or you can just wear lighter armour but keep your AC the same. It’s all about options.

Even without any armor, just to bypass the -8 penalty from a large shield and get the bonus to +5 in order to get a +1 to AC you would still need at least 8 ranks in parry +2 from DEX and +3 from a feat or item. All that just to bypass the shield's own ACP and get a simple +1. And of course, wearing no armor at all. I'll stick with it, but I think that is one of the reasons 8 in 10 meele fighters go all the way on two handed weapons.

The feat could be a little more attractive to low level characters. If you stop to think, parry an incomming blow with a silver platter is way easier than do the same with a fork, the platter occupies o much larger area and the amplitude of movement needed to move it in front of you and parry an attack is much lesser than the amplitude of movement you need with a fork. The same logic applies to sword, axes and shields, specially the larger ones, simply cause they give cover. The way it is now, it is way easier for the same person with the same skills, to parry an incomming attack with a dagger than with a large or even a tower shield and I dont think that makes much sense.

Like I said, I'll continue to use shields simply because I think they're awesome in so many aspects (and thats exactly why I think this should be looked over so lower lvl characters can get some real advantages when focussing on shields)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 06:19:14 PM by poisonivy2 »


modderpunk

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 05:10:03 AM »
Quote
If you stop to think, parry an incomming blow with a silver platter is way easier than do the same with a fork, the platter occupies o much larger area and the amplitude of movement needed to move it in front of you and parry an attack is much lesser than the amplitude of movement you need with a fork. The same logic applies to sword, axes and shields, specially the larger ones, simply cause they give cover. The way it is now, it is way easier for the same person with the same skills, to parry an incomming attack with a dagger than with a large or even a tower shield and I dont think that makes much sense.

Being able to stop attacks with your shield is included in your regular shield ac. A person with a shield has more ac than one with just a dagger. Shield parry means you have an extra ordinary skill at stopping the blows. And for that you do need more movement.




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poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2018, 08:27:36 AM »
"And for that you do need more movement"

The same should apply for weapons as well, some weapons are way heavier than some shields, but still they dont give any penalties. According to standart game mechanics, there is no difference if you're parrying with a dagger or with a maul.

In resume, a 15lbs shield attached to your arm still gives you a -8 on parry, but a greatsword with the same weight or even a 20lbs two handed hammer or a 25lbs double axe doesn't.

I know Im just a player with no ideia how dev/mechanics work, I just think that if a shield prevents you from moving freely (wich makes perfect sense), two handed weapons should prevent it too. Specially cause its way easier to lose your grip with a weapon than with a shield.

And to be honest, that should be applied to other skills as well, because is not a fair that a small shield would give you penalties on tumble or move in silence, but a greataxe or heavy flail won't.

Anyway, I dont want to nerf peoples characters but I really think that if shields have ACP, heavy weapons should act the same.


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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2018, 08:35:07 AM »
We already account for heavy weapons. You need an extra feat, otherwise it’s 1AC per 10 Parry.

poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2018, 08:45:01 AM »
We already account for heavy weapons. You need an extra feat, otherwise it’s 1AC per 10 Parry.

Oh, of course I knew that lol shame on me! =)


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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2018, 11:25:43 AM »
Go with a smaller shield. Tower shields are for people who can't/won't invest in those feats.
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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2018, 12:42:56 PM »
Shield parry seems useful to me if you want to use a buckler themed character, or if a higher level character wants to transition from two-handed weapons to sword-and-board depending on circumstances and still wants to get a few points of parry to carry over.
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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2019, 09:00:25 PM »
So, I am resurrecting this thread briefly because it seems many folks dont know this:

Yes. Shields can be enchanted temporarily by magical varnishes.

So technically you get 9 AC from the Greater Two weapons defense and Parry only if you are not wearing any armour.
19 dex and 3 feats are required.

Wearing max chain shirt (2ACP) and using medium shield. You lose 2 Parry AC, but you gain 2 from shield.
And then you just use a +3 varnish on it and you are at the same level AC wise. (While also being able to have an armour on)
If you use a +4 varnish. Then you can get +10 AC from parry+shield. And of course your armour bonus added as well.
Shield parry requires 15 dex and a single feat. -corrected

It tops all the other two feat chains.:)
(Not to mention there are some neat shields out there that can provide additional protection and bonus)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 12:03:21 AM by Ercvadasz »
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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2019, 10:27:55 PM »
As a noober when it comes to fighter stuff on D&D I guess my only issue is that all through history, shields are king, and I have no idea why people with no shields should have anywhere close to the defense of people who do. Shields shouldn't take away from parry, they should add to it.. I mean... that's what they do. But that's not constructive so ill shut up!

However...

Maybe to give the heavily armored tower-shield user some love, what about a "shieldwall" mode you can get that gives a +1 AC & +2 discipline for each other "shieldwall" user within 5' (up to +3 ac & 6 discipline) but reduces move speed to a crawl.  That way your AC could benefit from formation combat and heavy armor and shields would be king when used property. Just a thought!

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #44 on: August 05, 2019, 10:37:02 PM »
Maybe to give the heavily armored tower-shield user some love, what about a "shieldwall" mode you can get that gives a +1 AC & +2 discipline for each other "shieldwall" user within 5' (up to +3 ac & 6 discipline) but reduces move speed to a crawl.  That way your AC could benefit from formation combat and heavy armor and shields would be king when used property. Just a thought!

Originally, when the Parry system overhaul came in with Shield Parry, the plan was to boost Tower shields to give 4 base AC. Unfortunately, that proved to be not technically feasible at the time. (The issue appears to be, from my limited understanding, that there isn't an efficient script to identify when a user is using a Tower Shield...) Thus currently it can be said that tower shields are "underpowered" -- at least with respect to the original Shield Parry design plan.
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Ercvadasz

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2019, 12:07:41 AM »
Maybe to give the heavily armored tower-shield user some love, what about a "shieldwall" mode you can get that gives a +1 AC & +2 discipline for each other "shieldwall" user within 5' (up to +3 ac & 6 discipline) but reduces move speed to a crawl.  That way your AC could benefit from formation combat and heavy armor and shields would be king when used property. Just a thought!

Originally, when the Parry system overhaul came in with Shield Parry, the plan was to boost Tower shields to give 4 base AC. Unfortunately, that proved to be not technically feasible at the time. (The issue appears to be, from my limited understanding, that there isn't an efficient script to identify when a user is using a Tower Shield...) Thus currently it can be said that tower shields are "underpowered" -- at least with respect to the original Shield Parry design plan.

Actually shield parry works the same way with all shields.

Small shield: ACP-3- 2 (using max chain shirt): lost 1 parry Ac. Gained 1 shield AC and the chance to varnish or magic armour it.
Medium shield: ACP -8 2 (using max chain shirt): lost 2 parry Ac. Gained 2 shield AC and the chance to varnish or magic armour
Tower shield: ACP -13 2 (using max chain shirt): lost 2 parry Ac. Gained 3 shield AC and the chance to varnish or magic armour.

In each case due to the varnishes or magic armour you can have the same amount of AC as parry + TWD or even more.
So a medium prepared character could have 9 AC with shield + parry just as well, and a better prepared one 10 ac with shield and parry. (And not losing any armour bonus if they use max a chain shirt!)

So funnily enough i would say instead of dual wielding, rangers are better off using sword and board. (Or axe and board) in melee. As sadly their damage output will not even out the permanent -2 AB they get from dual wielding.

Whereas with shield parry they dont need 3 feats, will have unmodified AB so more chance to hit, and higher AC. (Since any ranger wearing any kind of armour can only start with 5 parry AC! So actually shield parry is even more noticably better.)
« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 12:13:26 AM by Ercvadasz »
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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2019, 01:34:34 AM »

So funnily enough i would say instead of dual wielding, rangers are better off using sword and board. (Or axe and board) in melee. As sadly their damage output will not even out the permanent -2 AB they get from dual wielding.

Whereas with shield parry they dont need 3 feats, will have unmodified AB so more chance to hit, and higher AC. (Since any ranger wearing any kind of armour can only start with 5 parry AC! So actually shield parry is even more noticably better.)

You would need to take Medium Armor Proficiency and Shield Parry and lose out on the damage of two high AB attacks per round. If you want to minimize the damage loss you'd need Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a Bastard Sword.

So you still invest three feats for an AC bonus but a damage disadvantage, for a class with the base HP of a flanker. All in all I'd say it's a viable or even choice, but not objectively better. Either way - shields are pretty neat atm, but somewhat niche.
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Ercvadasz

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2019, 09:02:30 AM »

So funnily enough i would say instead of dual wielding, rangers are better off using sword and board. (Or axe and board) in melee. As sadly their damage output will not even out the permanent -2 AB they get from dual wielding.

Whereas with shield parry they dont need 3 feats, will have unmodified AB so more chance to hit, and higher AC. (Since any ranger wearing any kind of armour can only start with 5 parry AC! So actually shield parry is even more noticably better.)

You would need to take Medium Armor Proficiency and Shield Parry and lose out on the damage of two high AB attacks per round. If you want to minimize the damage loss you'd need Exotic Weapon Proficiency for a Bastard Sword.

So you still invest three feats for an AC bonus but a damage disadvantage, for a class with the base HP of a flanker. All in all I'd say it's a viable or even choice, but not objectively better. Either way - shields are pretty neat atm, but somewhat niche.

You dont need medium armour proficiency actually. From 17 dex you have the chance to max out your dex bonus with a studded leather armour. Which is not even that hard to achieve/get. (17 dex i mean!) I only wrote that for the shield parry to take maximum effect you should be using at the worst a chain shirt.

The exotic blade argument I can actually accept. However with the missing out of two high AB attack, both of them will have -2 AB in comparison to the single first attack. Sadly there are quite often times when this really matters, and the chance of having an additional 20 roll is something you should not really count on. (I am usually on the receiving end of someone or something rolling massively 20-s against.) The only folks who can make up for the loss of this are usually the sneak mix builds who get more damage dealt out with every hit. And a few other builds, but for rangers going DW is most of the time the wrong choice sadly.(Though parrying 1on1 with someone it can still be very usefull)

Of course I am talking about my own ranger experiences. However it is a bit ridiculous that currently if i took everything into consideration, not even using any kind of hard to find gear (like +1 AC dodge bonus boots and better), a ranger on level 14 with a shield parry build can achive around 60~ish ac on level 14. With same levelled party, and the character would also have evasion.

Back to the damage you mentioned again and the AB difference and exotic weapons.
Whereas true that if you wish to have some damage dealing abilities or decent ones it is better to go with bastard sword or katana, if you really want to do damage, take a two handed weapon. With ram's and bulls str (and occasionally favoured enemy) you can really capitalize on it. It even makes more sense to use two handed weapons in melee if you are focusing on damage dealing than to use DW, simply because of the -2AB. Or use a bow/sling/xbow/throwing axe. Even without the banebow you can dish out pretty good damage with a bow(or the other appropriate weapons.)

In regards of feats, with the recent requirement of rangers required to take FE this means less feats for them to take. More better suited and useful feats than an FE. (FE gives antagonize bonus to rangers....which is still not a ranger skill but that is for another discussion.)

Actually I was really considering to make an elven cleric that will use just a chain shirt and go sword and board to see how powerful it can be. Getting simply 10 AC just from shield parry(of course from later levels) seems to be quite worth it to make chain shirt clerics. And likely you would still have enough ability points left to get divine shield and the other...as to say divine feats most builds have. (or even paladin:)





« Last Edit: August 06, 2019, 09:05:38 AM by Ercvadasz »
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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2019, 10:17:28 AM »
Well first, in plain leathers (ACP of zero) you can get your +6 parry bonus with a +2 armor and +7 Dex bonus, with +3 from feats. Then, the enchanted armors have different properties and such that could potentially alter the situation as well.

We will have to agree to disagree on the twf aspect. I fall in with the more attacks are better. TWF, flurry, and rapid shot are well worth the malus to hit.

Shield parry is technically more advantageous by a point. Save for the need for dexterity to also be invested in. It is imo more properly compared to heavy armor and tower shield who tend to use more damaging weapons and have higher str thus they put out dmg at the expense of AC. Though they didn't have to busy their Dex so high...

I guess my point is... Seems well balanced

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2019, 06:40:44 PM »
Actually shield parry works the same way with all shields.

"Actually..."

Weren't you away when the discussions and testing of Shield Parry was held?

I'm informing you: in the original plan, if the Devs had been able to, they would have made Tower Shields Base AC 4 -- and presumably then they would have had ACP 18. Because in the current system, there is virtually no incentive to use Tower Shields in conjunction with Shield Parry. Of course you can, but why haul around a massive tower shield just to convert one point of Dodge AC into Shield AC?
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