Author Topic: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields  (Read 1880 times)

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2018, 03:18:06 PM »
You're really cherry-picking for this. Your example rogue will have decent AC but it'll never hit anything. You're dual-wielding two medium-sized weapons that don't take advantage of weapon finesse. You're going to have like 12 ab at level 20, and you're going to have wasted a lot of feats to get there. If you were to fight your first and your second example against each other, the second one would win all day.
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Blight

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2018, 08:30:44 PM »
Maybe it's just me, and everybody knows that I don't do math, but from a nonmath standpoint I happen to think that it makes more sense that individuals wouldn't be often using tower shields anyways.

Nobody gets good with a tower shield lol. It's a giant wall you stick on front of you and poke spears around.  How "good" can u really get with a tower shield anyways?

Logically speaking, one man with a regular shield versus one man with a tower shield, I'd venture to say that the man wielding a smaller shield would win pretty much every time. It makes sense to me that people who train with without anchoring themselves to a wall would generally have more opportunity to train and become more skillful.

Tower shields were never intended to be used by a single person. They were meant to be used by several.

I don't even know if it's possible, but what I would like to see is that each individual tower shield in a party increases everybody's AC by 1.

Probably not doable but man that would be some amazing scripting.

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Iridni Ren

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2018, 10:59:42 PM »
A point that Keyser made before he edited that I thought was valid is that parrying with a shield IMO would be more of (or at least as much as) a strength-based skill as dexterity.

Perhaps instead of requiring a 15+ Dex it could require a 13+ Str and 13+ Dex? Or some other combination?

In game, shields tend to be very heavy. Regardless of a PC's coordination, I don't think she could whip a shield around if she's weak. The bigger the shield, the more this would be true.

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peps

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2018, 11:03:55 PM »
A point that Keyser made before he edited that I thought was valid is that parrying with a shield IMO would be more of (or at least as much as) a strength-based skill as dexterity.

Perhaps instead of requiring a 15+ Dex it could require a 13+ Str and 13+ Dex? Or some other combination?

In game, shields tend to be very heavy. Regardless of a PC's coordination, I don't think she could whip a shield around if she's weak. The bigger the shield, the more this would be true.

This is something I wholeheartedly agree with. To sacrifice other areas significantly for a single feat is self-destructive. 13 DEX would be great; it doesn't encouraging the 12 DEX powerbuilding, but isn't too cumbersome. 

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2018, 10:45:45 PM »
I don't understand mechanics that well, but I do feel tower shields should be a party buff kind of item. Soley due to their role as a hunk of metal being strictly used in groups.
Maybe if you give it an AC group "aura" buff within a few meters, it'd validate it's usage and weight.

It's like what Blight said.
"HOLD THE LINE!" ...would have a really awesome new meaning

poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2018, 10:45:45 AM »
Reposting (yesyerday I was kinda drunk hehehe)

So, I got to lvl 4 with my fighter and saw the feat Shield Parry on the list, so I took it. But it doesn't seem to be working.

She has 5 ranks in Parry, +2 from dex & +3 from gloves, final modifier on Parry skill +10.

According to the feat description she should get a +2 bonus to her AC when using a shield, or at least  +1, if only the ranks count. But she doesnt get any bonus.

Last night when I made the first post, I thought I could be doing something wrong, but today I tried with different shields and weapons,  with and without armor and still, no bonus at all.

I can take prints or even make a short video to show it.

I was very happy when I saw the feat cause I always thought that shields needed a boost. Hope this gets fixed soon.


ethinos

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2018, 12:44:22 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.
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poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2018, 03:01:54 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.


Yeah, Im so smart I forgot the shield ACP... I guess the feat is only useful on higher lvls, when you'll be able to bypass the huge penalties from armor and from the shield itself.


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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2018, 03:10:46 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.


Yeah, Im so smart I forgot the shield ACP... I guess the feat is only useful on higher lvls, when you'll be able to bypass the huge penalties from armor and from the shield itself.

Or you can just wear lighter armour but keep your AC the same. Itís all about options.
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poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2018, 05:32:51 PM »
So, you have 10 effective ranks in Parry but what kind of armor check penalties are you getting? You need to subtract from that 10 whatever the total penalties you get from your shield and armor. I'm guessing you have enough penalties to drop below 5, where you'd get a +1 AC. Especially if you have a large shield with an 8 armor check penalty or a tower shield with a 13 armor check penalty.


Yeah, Im so smart I forgot the shield ACP... I guess the feat is only useful on higher lvls, when you'll be able to bypass the huge penalties from armor and from the shield itself.

Or you can just wear lighter armour but keep your AC the same. Itís all about options.

Even without any armor, just to bypass the -8 penalty from a large shield and get the bonus to +5 in order to get a +1 to AC you would still need at least 8 ranks in parry +2 from DEX and +3 from a feat or item. All that just to bypass the shield's own ACP and get a simple +1. And of course, wearing no armor at all. I'll stick with it, but I think that is one of the reasons 8 in 10 meele fighters go all the way on two handed weapons.

The feat could be a little more attractive to low level characters. If you stop to think, parry an incomming blow with a silver platter is way easier than do the same with a fork, the platter occupies o much larger area and the amplitude of movement needed to move it in front of you and parry an attack is much lesser than the amplitude of movement you need with a fork. The same logic applies to sword, axes and shields, specially the larger ones, simply cause they give cover. The way it is now, it is way easier for the same person with the same skills, to parry an incomming attack with a dagger than with a large or even a tower shield and I dont think that makes much sense.

Like I said, I'll continue to use shields simply because I think they're awesome in so many aspects (and thats exactly why I think this should be looked over so lower lvl characters can get some real advantages when focussing on shields)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 06:19:14 PM by poisonivy2 »


modderpunk

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2018, 05:10:03 AM »
Quote
If you stop to think, parry an incomming blow with a silver platter is way easier than do the same with a fork, the platter occupies o much larger area and the amplitude of movement needed to move it in front of you and parry an attack is much lesser than the amplitude of movement you need with a fork. The same logic applies to sword, axes and shields, specially the larger ones, simply cause they give cover. The way it is now, it is way easier for the same person with the same skills, to parry an incomming attack with a dagger than with a large or even a tower shield and I dont think that makes much sense.

Being able to stop attacks with your shield is included in your regular shield ac. A person with a shield has more ac than one with just a dagger. Shield parry means you have an extra ordinary skill at stopping the blows. And for that you do need more movement.




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poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2018, 08:27:36 AM »
"And for that you do need more movement"

The same should apply for weapons as well, some weapons are way heavier than some shields, but still they dont give any penalties. According to standart game mechanics, there is no difference if you're parrying with a dagger or with a maul.

In resume, a 15lbs shield attached to your arm still gives you a -8 on parry, but a greatsword with the same weight or even a 20lbs two handed hammer or a 25lbs double axe doesn't.

I know Im just a player with no ideia how dev/mechanics work, I just think that if a shield prevents you from moving freely (wich makes perfect sense), two handed weapons should prevent it too. Specially cause its way easier to lose your grip with a weapon than with a shield.

And to be honest, that should be applied to other skills as well, because is not a fair that a small shield would give you penalties on tumble or move in silence, but a greataxe or heavy flail won't.

Anyway, I dont want to nerf peoples characters but I really think that if shields have ACP, heavy weapons should act the same.


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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2018, 08:35:07 AM »
We already account for heavy weapons. You need an extra feat, otherwise itís 1AC per 10 Parry.

poisonivy2

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2018, 08:45:01 AM »
We already account for heavy weapons. You need an extra feat, otherwise itís 1AC per 10 Parry.

Oh, of course I knew that lol shame on me! =)


BahamutZ3RO

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2018, 11:25:43 AM »
Go with a smaller shield. Tower shields are for people who can't/won't invest in those feats.
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ethinos

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Re: Upcoming revision of the parry system to include shields
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2018, 12:42:56 PM »
Shield parry seems useful to me if you want to use a buckler themed character, or if a higher level character wants to transition from two-handed weapons to sword-and-board depending on circumstances and still wants to get a few points of parry to carry over.
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