Author Topic: People's Champion PrC analysis  (Read 4110 times)

APorg

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2018, 06:37:34 PM »
Hey, it's the nature of forum debates that a lot of people don't always build on previous points made, and repetition becomes necessary. But thank you for answering the point.

I still disagree with your last observation, I think the bar was raised when that happened, but, eh; time will tell.
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BraveSirRobin

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2018, 06:56:13 AM »
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but if a prestige class doesn’t outperform in some tangible measure it’s base equivalent, it’s not really worth the trouble of trying to take. Between Paladins and Clerics, considering that in the pursuit of this PRC you aren’t either falling or losing the favor of your diety (as your actions aren’t antagonistic to your creed, by class definition) then there’s frankly no reason you couldn’t engage in the same type of RP a People’s Champion would involve themselves in, and remain in your base class.

What that means, in practice is that the class will rarely, I’d ever be pursued because it’s lackluster. The 90 second.. I forget what it’s called. Righteous Anger? It’s frankly a gimmick. In PvP, it might be good in a gank, but I mean, what isn’t. In the context these types of characters would be engaging in combat, which is direct and face to face without deception, their opponent can just chug a haste potion and run the clock. Paladins sometimes face similar issues with Holy Sword, but atleast they can use it multiple times per day, with extra 4th level spell slots. The only reason I would even consider the PRC might maybe be for the detect skill. But I don’t feel like that’s necessarily worth what you’re losing for it. You’re losing a lot of spells as a Cleric and a Paladin.

Someone mentioned earlier that they’d rather trade Holy Sword, which will last a total of three minutes at max level, for the ability to detect and righteous anger because someone saw it can manage +55 AB on the dev server back when it was up. That’s incredibly misleading. You don’t have the synergy someone with UMD does with spot, or listen, wherein you can drop out a half dozen scrolls to max out your bonus to the skill, so you still aren’t going to be able to be the best at detection, you’re just going to be able to detect mediocre sneaks in their mid-levels testing people’s boundaries. I’d rather have the extra 4th level and 3rd level spell slots as a Paladin, and as a Cleric I’d rather have my extra spells per day and spell circles. It lasts longer, it’s more flexible, and if you make friends with a Bard you can detect cheeky sneaks in the course of generating RP. Because Bards have a lot of skill sets and they’re ultimately more valuable to me — or anyone for that matter, than just about any PRC we’ve released. They’re all very underwhelming.

So to summarize; If People’s Champion is so great to some of you guys, have at it. But I don’t see anyone here commenting that actually plays a People’s Champion other than Aprogressivist, who has basically pointed out the reasons why I wouldn’t bother with the class over any number of other see classes. Like Monster Hunter, Crypt Raider, Palemaster, so on, there is absolutely no tangible benefit to neither role play nor mechanical incentive to do the paperwork and effort to convince the Council that you should be allowed the superfluous privledge of playing a class ultimately less appealing than your base class, which you are not required to request to play.

I’ve been on this server for years, and I’ve honestly only ever considered classes like Dwarven Defender, RDD and Weaponsmaster to work into a character concept. The rest of them have almost entirely had their perks replaced by another base class’s capabilities, or the RP-style of PRC just isn’t exclusive to it, nor do you get anything for doing it.

That’s ultimately what this conversation boils down to. Perhaps to lessen the blow of the class’s fallbacks against it’s base counterparts, multiplemuses of Righteous Anger should be allowed, in spirit of a similar progression as Defensive Stance for a Dwarven Defenser - Or, the duration should be longer. Failing that, perhaps a bump to the intervals of faster level progression. It’s supposed to be a privledge and reward to be allowed to play these classes as a reward for your excellent roleplay towards gaining its benefits. Not shooting yourself in the foot for the sake of superfluous mechanical branding for actions taking IC that a Cleric could do any still not fall.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 07:02:17 AM by BraveSirRobin »

PlatointheCave

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2018, 08:37:12 AM »
I don’t really have a dog in this fight, but if a prestige class doesn’t outperform in some tangible measure it’s base equivalent, it’s not really worth the trouble of trying to take.

I disagree wholeheartedly. A prestige class should be taken to complement a character's play.

What that means, in practice is that the class will rarely, I’d ever be pursued because it’s lackluster. The 90 second.. I forget what it’s called. Righteous Anger? It’s frankly a gimmick. In PvP, it might be good in a gank, but I mean, what isn’t. In the context these types of characters would be engaging in combat, which is direct and face to face without deception, their opponent can just chug a haste potion and run the clock.

Or you could use a bow and shoot them? I suppose they could flee but at that point combat is over, no?

You don’t have the synergy someone with UMD does with spot, or listen, wherein you can drop out a half dozen scrolls to max out your bonus to the skill, so you still aren’t going to be able to be the best at detection, you’re just going to be able to detect mediocre sneaks in their mid-levels testing people’s boundaries.

Every spot buff comes in a bottle. No UMD necessary.

Like Monster Hunter, Crypt Raider, Palemaster, so on, there is absolutely no tangible benefit to neither role play nor mechanical incentive to do the paperwork and effort to convince the Council that you should be allowed the superfluous privledge of playing a class ultimately less appealing than your base class, which you are not required to request to play.

Crypt Raider is worse than rogue but it does exactly what it says on the tin. You don't take it because there's a mechanical incentive, you take it because it fits your character's concept. I wont rehash MH here and Palemaster is /really/ good these days.

I don't think your analysis adds up and I don't think the People's Champion fails to support characters pursuing the concept. Quite beside that, I actually think it's very strong.

Finally, I cannot stress enough how important it is to think of PrCs in terms of supporting a concept, not raw mechanical incentives.

BahamutZ3RO

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2018, 10:43:15 AM »
Quote
If People’s Champion is so great to some of you guys, have at it. But I don’t see anyone here commenting that actually plays a People’s Champion other than Aprogressivist

The real reason for this is that I've either gotta play an Ezrite or a Lawgiver for that. Eww.
: )




Genetrix

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2018, 11:45:28 AM »
I also have a People’s Champion. I did not apply for the class for mechanical reasons, and to be honest am not really that interested in maximising my character’s power; I’m much more interested in the roleplay that goes along with it. Still, I have to say I’ve never felt underpowered or undergunned, and I am perfectly content with the class as it is.

BattleCupcake

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2018, 01:08:15 PM »
Since the primary complaint here seems to be on the mechanics, I'll think on that.

Lose 3 levels of spellcasting for save bonuses, a bonus feat, an extra class skill, and for the cleric, 1 more BAB, and a 1/rest "I win" buff. That's more or less what the package of People's Champion gives you.

Cleric 8 and 9 level spells are insanely boring, so I would take this PrC over those last 5 levels of cleric anyday; and although it's only at level 20, the extra APR is also a nice quality of life change. In the context of the paladin, I'd take it if Spot in-class was more appealing than having an additional 4th-level slot to cast Sacred Haven, as saving throw bonuses are a total wash on a paladin.

And then in regards to ranger and bard getting more skill points raising the baseline? Rangers also lost an HD size and an armor category. Bards lost an armor category.
From getting 2 more skill points, a ranger or a bard can reasonably add another detection or stealth skill to their repertoire (although on my bard, I took Influence and Appraise, because she's an old woman). The peoples' champion enables taking of a detection skill over its base class at the cost of some spellcasting ability. So there's your parity.

The main pain in peoples' champion skill points feels more like the pre-requisites being cross-class skills for Cleric, a class with very few skill points, rather than in the class's own base skill points.

BraveSirRobin

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2018, 04:26:56 PM »

Quote
I disagree wholeheartedly. A prestige class should be taken to complement a character's play.
Quote
Crypt Raider is worse than rogue but it does exactly what it says on the tin. You don't take it because there's a mechanical incentive, you take it because it fits your character's concept. I wont rehash MH here and Palemaster is /really/ good these days.

I have the same response to both of these -- What does People's Champion or Crypt Raider offer you, beyond an OOC label - which is all these classes realistically are without tangible, mechanical differences, that a Cleric or a Rogue does not, that is pertinent to the role-play of the class? People's Champion has approx. one tangible benefit for either a Paladin or a Cleric, and it is righteous anger. It's a one trick pony, that is short lived, and doesn't really justify everything you lose as a max level cleric or a max level paladin. For a Paladin, their power curve gets ridiculous after like, level 15 or so, because of the inclusion of spells like Holy Sword and Sacred Haven. From that point forward, you only become stronger, and stupidly stronger. For a Cleric, you get additional spell slots and spells like implosion, which I've personally witnessed used to great effect in the past. Unless you're only dipping a couple levels of People's Champion, you're missing out of more or less all of your good spells as a Cleric, from 10-20, or even 13-14 out to 20. You just don't get that same flexibility. So far it's, sacrificing a bunch of skill-points, to get access to spot and lose a bunch of spells. Nobody thinks Righteous Anger is particularly useful in PvE, where it's OK for a boss-fight, but not much else, and in PvP it's good for a gank, if they're caught unawares.

Quote
Or you could use a bow and shoot them? I suppose they could flee but at that point combat is over, no?

This assumes your cleric uses a bow, which requires Zen Archery unless you want to completely mitigate the benefits of using Righteous Anger. It costs one action, or one round, to switch weapons in combat. It's very easy to just run up and KD someone when they switch to a bow, they won't have the rapid fire feats, and they probably won't have point blank shot, which gives them a -4 on top of the fact they probably didn't buff their bow with GMW or any other AB goodies. So even if you have Zen Archery, and you're in PvP - For a Cleric specifically - You're still losing your GMW enhancement bonus, whatever damage buffs you put on your weapon,, and as soon as you do it, they'll just run up and attack you in melee which is a -4 to hit. Then when you click to switch, they bugger off like a cheeky man micro-managing you during your 90 seconds of glory.

For a Paladin, using a bow is going to entirely tank your AB. You have 14 WIS and probably aren't buffing it with Owl's Wisdom because you want to use your significantly better buffs, and your number of spell slots is drastically reduced because of your prestige class. You won't have buffed the bow either, probably aren't wasting feats on Rapid Fire or Point Blank Shot, and the idea that you've taken Zen Archery on the off-chance someone decides to kite your Righteous Anger is a sign of the times regardless. So again, whatever 'Righteous Anger' benefit you had, is almost nothing in comparison to what you're getting out of a high-level Paladin with spells like Holy Sword and Sacred Haven being available. Your only benefit is Spot, at the cost of a lot of cross-class skills. Spot is OK. Spot isn't life, and Spot isn't even the best detect skill. 

I think I'd be a lot happier, if there were feats, or there was incentive in the class-level progression, to acquire multiple uses of Righteous Anger, akin to Defender Stance. If you could use it three times a rest period, I think I'd be happier. Because then it feels a little more reliable. Even if it costs more feats.



P.S./Edit: I know you people are all like, 'Nah, mang. For the RP's.' -- But this is a Persistent World server, with Persistent World issues. We balance many of our dungeons to account for the guy who goes through and maximizes his build for excellence, and plays to power and win, so we make things more difficult to prevent solo'ing these dungeons for these people. We adjust the loot tables to account for these people. We adjust the entire server, to account for the individuals who are going to stick to their guns and pull the absolute worst out of a base class, but we aren't even considering trying to give incentive for PRC's to remain more relevant in the meta that is created, by these individuals and their builds.

Some of you just roleplay, and you people sit around and don't care about what your mechanics are, and you avoid confrontational roleplay that could result in your character being corpsehidden, or maybe you just don't care, because it's the roleplay. That's fine and dandy, and you're entitled to enjoy the game however you well please. That's the wonder of the server. In a PnP session, this isn't even really a discussion, because everything is tailored to your party at hand by the careful and loving hands of your cheeto-consuming friendly neighborhood Dungeon Master. However, that isn't how NWN is set up. It's very clear, for roleplay reasons Aprogressivist has taken this class. However, it probably would've been more mechanically advantageous if their character hadn't, and for that they are weaker against their potential opponents on the Antag side of the aisle, and have to rely on banding together with other more capable characters, or even in higher-end dungeons late in the game.



« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 04:33:56 PM by BraveSirRobin »

APorg

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2018, 06:15:40 PM »
Or you could use a bow and shoot them? I suppose they could flee but at that point combat is over, no?

Not necessarily. If your opponent is using short term buffs and you've got a good idea of how long they'll last (i.e. about the duration of a Haste potion), you can turn around and fight them without the advantage of their buffs. The point is, people talking like it's an automatic "I Win" button are overrating it. It's correct use is a tactic, which can be countered like everything else.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 06:32:45 PM by aprogressivist »
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo

APorg

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Re: People's Champion PrC analysis
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2018, 06:32:06 PM »
The main pain in peoples' champion skill points feels more like the pre-requisites being cross-class skills for Cleric, a class with very few skill points, rather than in the class's own base skill points.

Yeah, this is the main thing I dislike. Consider this: If you're a non-Human INT 10 Cleric or Paladin, then every single Skill point you acquire up to level 10 has to go into the pre-reqs. Every one. In other words, the threshold of pre-requisite skills is so high that you are kind of forced to play a high INT, preferably Human, type to get any real pay off from this Prestige Class's skills.

Personally, I think that's strange design. It probably makes more sense in PnP, where you might roll stats instead of point buy and assign a high value to INT to suit the concept and work around the high skill pre-req, where Discipline doesn't exist and isn't virtually a must-have, and where Spellcraft doesn't offer a saves bonus. In NWN, the opportunity cost calculation feels a lot more pointed.
“Moral wounds have this peculiarity - they may be hidden, but they never close; always painful, always ready to bleed when touched, they remain fresh and open in the heart.”
― Alexandre Dumas, The Count of Monte Cristo