Refiring traps

[SingASongOfDeath]

You don't NEED to go in all or any dungeons at all.

That's not a valid argument.

same for places requiring, or not, wizards and clerics to survive.

You haven't been listening. There aren't any places that require a wizard or cleric to survive. They can be completed without one. With the exception of the ultra high-end, like Sithicus.

This being said, I think I'll recuse myself from the discussion. I'm passionate, but I'd rather not stress about it, and instead focus on just playing the game.

[julienchab]

If that's your only argument to all I have to say Mab, I'll just stop saying what I think. Because next what I'll hear is: If you don't like the systems we have here, just don't play here. And that's what it's starting to sound like, when we try to point something out for a discussion. I'm done trying to make my point here.

[Daboomer]

I think this change would be fine had it come with even more dungeons available not in the requirement of any open lock/disable trap. Not even for the loot so to speak. I'm not saying it's that horrible but if there was some places without chest on the ends or where all the loot was on a tough boss and some minions i think i would have maybe even welcomed how tough it got navigating traps in har'akir.

[MAB77]

That is quite unfair, I am on the contrary trying to find a balanced point of view within the scope of the gaming experience we wish to provide. That of an open world where parties composed of various classes are required to beat the toughest dungeons. Where each classes have something unique to provide and have their worth.

[MAB77]

I think this change would be fine had it come with even more dungeons available not in the requirement of any open lock/disable trap. Not even for the loot so to speak. I'm not saying it's that horrible but if there was some places without chest on the ends or where all the loot was on a tough boss and some minions i think i would have maybe even welcomed how tough it got navigating traps in har'akir.

Yes that will definitively be considered. New dungeons are always being worked on.

[foxtale]

I think big part of the issue that people perceive is that even though rogues are more needed now, it is hard to give them and their players credit for a task that is in essence "take 20".

I cannot speak for others, but if I gaze into myself I definitely see opening locks and disabling traps as less of an effort for the group than the combat related stuff, because it is mechanically very simple; this makes bringing a rogue for those tasks feel more like a chore you have to bother with than a cool role that your buddy fills to have your back. There is no real positive feeling associated with your rogue friend clearing the path for you, it is something you take for granted - the mere counteracting of a negative feeling.

Is this how other people feel about this too?

If that's the issue, then... well. We can't do anything about it but become better people and roleplayers. My current frontliner makes an effort to compliment and voice gratefulness for every ward received, telling mages it is a simple thing but it counts every swing taken against him - even though it's just one click for the mage to buff people. Likewise, he is thankful for the "scouts" clearing traps and opening doors. This helps me as a player to appreciate these things too and made recent dungeoning a blast.

[Arawn]

I cannot speak for others, but if I gaze into myself I definitely see opening locks and disabling traps as less of an effort for the group than the combat related stuff, because it is mechanically very simple; this makes bringing a rogue for those tasks feel more like a chore you have to bother with than a cool role that your buddy fills to have your back. There is no real positive feeling associated with your rogue friend clearing the path for you, it is something you take for granted - the mere counteracting of a negative feeling.

This also goes for many buffers, though--you participate in the strategy of the party, you roleplay, and so forth. If this isn't a role you like, then that's fine.

[foxtale]

I cannot speak for others, but if I gaze into myself I definitely see opening locks and disabling traps as less of an effort for the group than the combat related stuff, because it is mechanically very simple; this makes bringing a rogue for those tasks feel more like a chore you have to bother with than a cool role that your buddy fills to have your back. There is no real positive feeling associated with your rogue friend clearing the path for you, it is something you take for granted - the mere counteracting of a negative feeling.

This also goes for many buffers, though--you participate in the strategy of the party, you roleplay, and so forth. If this isn't a role you like, then that's fine.

I am quite happy filling support roles myself - in fact, I am suggesting that the issue might not be the traps but how we deal with gaining enjoyment from dungeoning and roleplay with a group. The feelings I describe here are ones that I think are problematic and sit at the core of the issue.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I cannot speak for others, but if I gaze into myself I definitely see opening locks and disabling traps as less of an effort for the group than the combat related stuff, because it is mechanically very simple; this makes bringing a rogue for those tasks feel more like a chore you have to bother with than a cool role that your buddy fills to have your back. There is no real positive feeling associated with your rogue friend clearing the path for you, it is something you take for granted - the mere counteracting of a negative feeling.

This also goes for many buffers, though--you participate in the strategy of the party, you roleplay, and so forth. If this isn't a role you like, then that's fine.

I am quite happy filling support roles myself - in fact, I am suggesting that the issue might not be the traps but how we deal with gaining enjoyment from dungeoning and roleplay with a group. The feelings I describe here are ones that I think are problematic and sit at the core of the issue.

I think this issue has been having an even broader impact than many people realize on the general perceptions of the players of this server. It seems to me that many people undervalue the Rogue class because they aren't as helpful with the "buff and bash" aspect of dungeoning. But when we appreciate Rogues for all of the skills that they bring to the table, as a jack of all trades, dabbler of many/master of none type of role, they can be a very valuable class. Disabling traps may not look cool kids, but it's a viable career option! On a more serious note, I think Rogues are already valuable to a party, it's not all about buffing and bashing friends!

[Daboomer]

I think this change would be fine had it come with even more dungeons available not in the requirement of any open lock/disable trap. Not even for the loot so to speak. I'm not saying it's that horrible but if there was some places without chest on the ends or where all the loot was on a tough boss and some minions i think i would have maybe even welcomed how tough it got navigating traps in har'akir.

Yes that will definitively be considered. New dungeons are always being worked on.

Yes and it is fine though it makes this a bit backward. Dont get me wrong i understand Dungeons etc takes time to develop. But you sort of End Up with putting a donkey before the carrot rather then a carrot before the donkey when we make this change bfore we have More things possible to complete without open lock or disable device.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I think this change would be fine had it come with even more dungeons available not in the requirement of any open lock/disable trap. Not even for the loot so to speak. I'm not saying it's that horrible but if there was some places without chest on the ends or where all the loot was on a tough boss and some minions i think i would have maybe even welcomed how tough it got navigating traps in har'akir.

Yes that will definitively be considered. New dungeons are always being worked on.

Yes and it is fine though it makes this a bit backward. Dont get me wrong i understand Dungeons etc takes time to develop. But you sort of End Up with putting a donkey before the carrot rather then a carrot before the donkey when we make this change bfore we have More things possible to complete without open lock or disable device.

While I understand where you are coming from with this argument, I really don't feel as though there is any really lack of completable dungeons at any level range, even without a Rogue.

[Philos]

I cannot speak for others, but if I gaze into myself I definitely see opening locks and disabling traps as less of an effort for the group than the combat related stuff, because it is mechanically very simple; this makes bringing a rogue for those tasks feel more like a chore you have to bother with than a cool role that your buddy fills to have your back. There is no real positive feeling associated with your rogue friend clearing the path for you, it is something you take for granted - the mere counteracting of a negative feeling.

This.

While we are roleplay server as opposed to an action adventure server, I would greatly appreciate it traps in generaly had a bigger threat level. I've mention it in other places but one of the most common problems I encounter is that the traps spawn in the same exact places, every, single, time. I think many more trap nodes where added where both the amount of traps and their locations were randomized, I might would a significant amount of time searching and clearing an area before the group presses on.

Secondly, Unless the traps posses a complete impasse to the entire party, they are rarely a threat. They often only affect the people who sets it off as opposed to the party members around him. I would likr to see more electrical/fire/gas traps that pose a larger threat to the party rather than just the point man. Also, consider adding traps with interesting spell effects like Cloud Kill, Mordenkien's Disjunction, Incendiary Cloud.

[Daboomer]

As i see it, one problem is more that for example three characters could quite easily have "dwarfed" there way passed some traps if they wished and merely left the group behind if they had so wished. Or possibly not bothered to bring people to begin with and used the same method as before merely rested once more to be able to heal to make there way back. For a sorceror/wizard lower then the lvl for shadow shield though they would not have been able to do this. Therefore i ask, if we have this. Would it be harmfull to have dungeons without particularly high lock dc's (for breaking a chest open) or without any traps. I get also that this takes a bit of time to develop and MAB for one seems perfectly fine with this being a thing. It's why i end up thinking it's a bit backwards doing this change to dungeons before that is available. I'm not in extreme oppisition to the change though.

[DM Erebus]

Perhaps one way to alleviate complete rogue dependency for traps would be an item, like a crowbar but for traps.
There would be a penalty associated with unsuccessful use - like the trap going off.
This would mean a non-rogue party could (eventually) disarm a trap, but it would still be advantageous to bring a rogue.

[Daboomer]

Yes, with a suitable difficulty still making this difficult i think cosmic ray might be on to something.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

In an ideal world, we would definitely have implemented this by meticulously going through each dungeon to reassess the trap setup, but that's not practically possible. We are a small group of volunteers working on this in our free time.  If we were to exercise that amount of care before each new implementation, we simply wouldn't be able to give you that much new stuff.

That's the wonderful aspect of us being locked in a perpetual beta - you are our testers and QA team. Together - through our revisions and attunements paired with your feedback and practical experiences - we will achieve much more than what we could on our own.

That does entail that things will at times seem a bit raw, so before making up your mind about new things, look at the potential. And if it then seems like it could turn into something good, help us getting there - by exploring, investigating, testing and returning here, offering your thoughts and feedback.

As you do, mind you. But here, in this concrete case, I think what we most of all need is to locate the locations where the change has become an issue, causing excessive frustration or seem unbalanced. 

[Night of Reod]

 I have seen a few general issues raised that I would like to address:

1-There Aren't Many Mid Level Dungeons Available: I would have to disagree. There are quite a few mid-level dungeons available outside of Har'Akir, and a few within Har'akir that do not have traps, and a fair number of them don't even require you to be able to open locks or disable traps. I will include a list of ones I can think of off the top of my head below in spoiler tags.

Spoiler: show

The Neureni Cave, Darkling Camp, Swamp Men Camp, Lysaga Hill, Shadow Cave, Port Sewers (Assassin Bugs), Cave in Ghakis (The first one after you take a left before the transition to the transit before Krofburg, what it spawns is randomized like the Sullen Woods but a fair number of the spawns are suitable for mid level), Ice Palace, Alhoon's (There are trapped chests, but dungeon is perfectly doable without a rogue, and the traps can be bypassed with the old method if you are able to avoid their damage, or if your character is masochistic enough to take it for the loot), Lich Cave (Again, there are trapped chests and some traps on the ground, but they are avoidable and not really lethal, negative traps are more focused towards debuffs than dealing damage), Cave system in the area before the Crossroads and the house with the devils it connects into, Catacombs under VoB church, the DOOM well in VoB, Rat Cave in VoB. Those are the ones I can think off of the top of my head. In addition, mists themselves can be considered a mid-level area.

2-Rogues Are Useless OL/DT Slaves: Again, I will have to disagree. Keep in mind that we are not talking about just pure rogues, but multiclass rogues as well. I myself have been playing a multiclass rogue for some time that I would consider fairly combat effective, and I have seen numerous multiclass rogues who were more than able to pull their weight in a combat situation, mundane and otherwise. Pure rogues are not great on the server due to the AC numbers of higher level enemies and abundant sneak attack immunity, but you can still make a rogue that will be able to pull their weight until end game content and multiclassing is made easier and simpler by the server, due to changes such as the multiclass exp penalty being removed, as well as there being some great options for a rogue to multiclass into without sacrificing much if anything from their RP.

3-Picking Locks/Disabling Traps Is Not Very Engaging For The Party: There is a certain bit of truth to that, as the outcome is quite binary, the visual aspect is pretty much non-existent and the result itself is quite binary as well. Ideally, more of the traps would be party wide affairs that are half puzzles, but engine and time restrictions make that unlikely and unpractical. However, I would argue that this also has to do with the RP around the whole affair, and I will point to bards or other characters singing or performing as an example. Due to the medium, you can't hear the music, you can't see the performance whether it is a dance or fingers moving on a fretboard. And if you have someone just making a [perform] roll, then it is indeed quite boring. But on the other hand, you have those who prepare lyrics for the songs, engage the audience in some way such as chatting with them and leading into the songs, describing the actions or songs in a way that is simple but understandable, then those things make the performance much more enjoyable and engaging for everyone involved. I think this would work in the given context as well. I myself tried to do this at times if I knew the party I was with wouldn't mind holding up the murder train a minute longer for some RP, making up descriptions for the traps and what my character thinks of them, or asking for help in simple matters such as "can you put your finger here?" or "can you get me this tool or that" in hopes of making it more engaging for everyone. I think trying to add a bit more RP flair to it, alongside of a change in perspective by the players that these changes hopefully will facilitate, will help this problem. Making the traps more threatening as Philos suggested would also be helpful, perhaps even making it so some loot is inaccessible if you trigger a trap, the vault locks down because security is engaged. Though that would be quite a sizeable undertaking, and I am not sure how practical it would be.

4-It Is Dumb To Have To Have A Rogue: I don't think that it is senseless that you would require a certain composition or balance of classes for adventuring, and I would argue that it is intended. And while PnP DnD often has multiple classes that can complete the same task, they are also working with an average party size of 3-6, not dozens like a NWN server, and even in PnP rogue is a staple in most parties. Furthermore, I don't think it is silly to need a rogue to go grave robbing in a place that you know is full of trapped temples and tombs, intended to lock away the treasures of the long dead and keep them safe from people like you. I think it fits the narrative of the region and dungeons perfectly, as well as the Ancient Egyptian flair it draws on. In addition, thanks to how flexible multiclassing is on this server, you can have many different kinds of rogues that fit different kinds of situations, whether it is on the front line, ranged support, or some sort of magical support. Overall, I don't think the new changes make them a must, except for a sizeable chunk of Har'Akir, and they are definitely not any more necessary to have around than some sort of caster capable of buffing for dungeoning. In the end, even though it might be inconvenient to need a certain class for some of the most convenient dungeoning spots for mid-level, I don't think it kills mid level dungeoning in any way but adds to the flavour of a region.

5-Now You Simply Must Have A Rogue To Be Able To Dungeon: As I pointed out above, there are many dungeons in the mid level range that do not require a rogue at all, so I disagree with the idea that "you can't work around not having a rogue for most dungeons." Even for higher end dungeons, I can think of several that do not require any trap disabling for anything other then loot, and some that don't require it at all. And the traps on chests can still be handled the old fashioned way, not to mention I think it is perfectly fair to need a professional if you want the really good loot. Perhaps the loot containers in these places can be adjusted to have some of the loot in containers that are not trapped or loocked to make it more fair. Overall, however, there are still plenty of dungeons you can enjoy, and benefit from, without absolutely having to have a rogue.

[SpaceHam]

I don't know about the rest of you, and I'm not going to get hung up on argument, but when I play a rogue and I'm responsible for traps and locked containers, it's to the partys great relief. Most players are more than willing to let the rogue "take command" of the mechanical contraptions that contain their loot. I'd argue that having a cleric and a wizard along to Har'akir (Anubis seems to be the main example) is essential. Try going in there unbuffed as a level 10 fighter, without cleric or wizard support and just varnishes, I guarantee you'll be corpsed at some stage. Rogues are very much vital, wizards (and sorcerers!) and clerics are very much vital. I'd hate to dungeon anywhere without support buffs. As someone who plays support well, I guess I've never truly felt as if my characters were useless, even if I was doubled up with another wizard, it just means more hastes or an extra sonic weapon for someone somewhere.

TL;DR - All classes are useful and important if you understand your roll. It's when people try to cover all bases at once and be as independent as possible (lookin at you, fighter/rogue builds) that pure rogues feel useless. Rogues have a niche, utilize them moar! (please be gentle in your criticism of me )

[SpaceHam]

I just realised that my post was a tangent - Come on SpaceHam, focus on the traps situation!

I wonder if we might lower the Rogue-Only trap disarming DC to 20 and dependent on non-multiclassed rogues? Is that something doable with scripts?

[McNastea]

(lookin at you, fighter/rogue builds) that pure rogues feel useless. Rogues have a niche, utilize them moar! (please be gentle in your criticism of me )

I never felt more useful than when I played my fighter/rogue

[SpaceHam]

(lookin at you, fighter/rogue builds) that pure rogues feel useless. Rogues have a niche, utilize them moar! (please be gentle in your criticism of me )

I never felt more useful than when I played my fighter/rogue

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

I have seen a few general issues raised that I would like to address:

1-There Aren't Many Mid Level Dungeons Available: I would have to disagree. There are quite a few mid-level dungeons available outside of Har'Akir, and a few within Har'akir that do not have traps, and a fair number of them don't even require you to be able to open locks or disable traps. I will include a list of ones I can think of off the top of my head below in spoiler tags.

Spoiler: show

The Neureni Cave, Darkling Camp, Swamp Men Camp, Lysaga Hill, Shadow Cave, Port Sewers (Assassin Bugs), Cave in Ghakis (The first one after you take a left before the transition to the transit before Krofburg, what it spawns is randomized like the Sullen Woods but a fair number of the spawns are suitable for mid level), Ice Palace, Alhoon's (There are trapped chests, but dungeon is perfectly doable without a rogue, and the traps can be bypassed with the old method if you are able to avoid their damage, or if your character is masochistic enough to take it for the loot), Lich Cave (Again, there are trapped chests and some traps on the ground, but they are avoidable and not really legal, negative traps are more focused towards debuffs then dealing damage), Cave system in the area before the Crossroads and the house with the devils it connects into, Catacombs under VoB church, the DOOM well in VoB, Rat Cave in VoB. Those are the ones I can think off of the top of my head. In addition, mists themselves can be considered a mid-level area.

2-Rogues Are Useless OL/DT Slaves: Again, I will have to disagree. Keep in mind that we are not talking about just pure rogues, but multiclass rogues as well. I myself have been playing a multiclass rogue for some time that I would consider fairly combat effective, and I have seen numerous multiclass rogues who were more than able to pull their weight in a combat situation, mundane and otherwise. Pure rogues are not great on the server due to the AC numbers of higher level enemies and abundant sneak attack immunity, but you can still make a rogue that will be able to pull their weight until end game content and multiclassing is made easier and simpler by the server, due to changes such as the multiclass exp penalty being removed, as well as there being some great options for a rogue to multiclass into without sacrificing much if anything from their RP.

3-Picking Locks/Disabling Traps Is Not Very Engaging For The Party: There is a certain bit of truth to that, as the outcome is quite binary, the visual aspect is pretty much non-existent and the result itself is quite binary as well. Ideally, more of the traps would be party wide affairs that are half puzzles, but engine and time restrictions make that unlikely and unpractical. However, I would argue that this also has to do with the RP around the whole affair, and I will point to bards or other characters singing or performing as an example. Due to the medium, you can't hear the music, you can't see the performance whether it is a dance or fingers moving on a fretboard. And if you have someone just making a [perform] roll, then it is indeed quite boring. But on the other hand, you have those who prepare lyrics for the songs, engage the audience in some way such as chatting with them and leading into the songs, describing the actions or songs in a way that is simple but understandable, then those things make the performance much more enjoyable and engaging for everyone involved. I think this would work in the given context as well. I myself tried to do this at times if I knew the party I was with wouldn't mind holding up the murder train a minute longer for some RP, making up descriptions for the traps and what my character thinks of them, or asking for help in simple matters such as "can you put your finger here?" or "can you get me this tool or that" in hopes of making it more engaging for everyone. I think trying to add a bit more RP flair to it, alongside of a change in perspective by the players that these changes hopefully will facilitate, will help this problem. Making the traps more threatening as Philos suggested would also be helpful, perhaps even making it so some loot is inaccessible if you trigger a trap person, the vault locks up before security is engaged. Though that would be quite a sizeable undertaking, and I am not sure how practical it would be.

4-It Is Dumb To Have To Have A Rogue: I don't think that it is senseless that you would require a certain composition or balance of classes for adventuring, and I would argue that it is intended. And while PnP DnD often has multiple classes that can complete the same task, they are also working with an average party size of 3-6, not dozens like a NWN server, and even in PnP rogue is a staple in most parties. Furthermore, I don't think it is silly to need a rogue to go grave robbing in a place that you know is full of trapped temples and tombs, intended to lock away the treasures of the long dead and keep them safe from people like you. I think it fits the narrative of the region and dungeons perfectly, as well as the Ancient Egyptian flair it draws on. In addition, thanks to how flexible multiclassing is on this server, you can have many different kinds of rogues that fit different kinds of situations, whether it is on the front line, ranged support, or some sort of magical support. Overall, I don't think the new changes make them a must, except for a sizeable chunk of Har'Akir, and they are definitely not any more necessary to have around than some sort of caster capable of buffing for dungeoning. In the end, even though it might be inconvenient to need a certain class for some of the most convenient dungeoning spots for mid-level, I don't think it kills mid level dungeoning in any way but adds to the flavour of a region.

5-Now You Simply Must Have A Rogue To Be Able To Dungeon: As I pointed out above, there are many dungeons in the mid level range that do not require a rogue at all, so I disagree with the idea that "you can't work around not having a rogue for most dungeons." Even for higher end dungeons, I can think of several that do not require any trap disabling for anything other then loot, and some that don't require it at all. And the traps on chests can still be handled the old fashioned way, not to mention I think it is perfectly fair to need a professional if you want the really good loot. Perhaps the loot containers in these places can be adjusted to have some of the loot in containers that are not trapped or loocked to make it more fair. Overall, however, there are still plenty of dungeons you can enjoy, and benefit from, without absolutely having to have a rogue.

1. I am 100% in agreement with everything stated in this post. Very solid argument supported by prevalent and clear evidence.
2. I am opposed to lowering the Rogue only disable Trap DC from 35 to 20. That seems both extreme and unnecessary. Furthermore I think it will only provide yet another incentive for players to choose a multi-class Rogue over a pure Rogue. In my experience, we have no shortage of multi-class Rogues and I would much prefer to see an incentive for pure Rogues. But maybe that's just me?

[SpaceHam]

2. I am opposed to lowering the Rogue only disable Trap DC from 35 to 20. That seems both extreme and unnecessary. Furthermore I think it will only provide yet another incentive for players to choose a multi-class Rogue over a pure Rogue. In my experience, we have no shortage of multi-class Rogues and I would much prefer to see an incentive for pure Rogues. But maybe that's just me?

I agree, I wasn't completely in favour of the idea myself, but I thought I'd put it out there. Rogues are very much a physical class, they don't have a lot of supernatural abilities (if any, unless prestige classes count), which means that they're stuck at the physical level. Maybe it's just one of those things that has to be accepted as they are, they're a utility class, with a mitigating factor of sneak attacks and such. Pure rogues (or atleast those who invest some serious levels into them) do get perks, however. Like crippling strike, opportunist and those nice juicy rogue only feats...

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

2. I am opposed to lowering the Rogue only disable Trap DC from 35 to 20. That seems both extreme and unnecessary. Furthermore I think it will only provide yet another incentive for players to choose a multi-class Rogue over a pure Rogue. In my experience, we have no shortage of multi-class Rogues and I would much prefer to see an incentive for pure Rogues. But maybe that's just me?

I agree, I wasn't completely in favour of the idea myself, but I thought I'd put it out there. Rogues are very much a physical class, they don't have a lot of supernatural abilities (if any, unless prestige classes count), which means that they're stuck at the physical level. Maybe it's just one of those things that has to be accepted as they are, they're a utility class, with a mitigating factor of sneak attacks and such. Pure rogues (or atleast those who invest some serious levels into them) do get perks, however. Like crippling strike, opportunist and those nice juicy rogue only feats...

Agreed, and the Rogue only feats are certainly nice. As is the huge sum of skill points. Although, I haven't seen many players decide that these Rogue only feats are worth staying pure Rogue. The few players who I've personally seen stay pure Rogue chose to do it for purely rp reasons.

[IrishIron]

I'm gonna be honest. I love the new refiring traps. Ppl actually have to slow down to go through a dungeon now. There is this hard push which i can understand at times. Heck sometimes i'm pressed for time myself.

I have heard nothing but good things from the rogues i know about the new changes. They all seem to have the same thing to say "Sounds like I'm useful now"

Let me give you an example of something that happened to me the very day before the changes:


*while party of four is walking to Anubis*
Party Member 1: Fearghas do you know how to handle traps?
Fearghas: He does and locks

Party Member 1: Oh good

*party arrives at dungeon and "party member 2" instead of waiting for the 5 seconds each it takes to search and disarm the trap runs forward and starts using an item to summon creature over the traps in rapid succession.  Faster then i could even type.  Completely making useless any rogue that cant instead just fight*

-Now people need to have someone that actually deals with traps to go to a place that is literally known for Traps. I mean our RL cliche comparison for harakir is egypt. You need your indiana jones like person.

-Dwarven method didnt work for the germans in Indiana Jones the Last Crusade. If I remember right alot of guys died from resetting beheading trap. Had to send in someone that knew how to get around the traps/disarm them

PS: As far as the example I gave I cant really fault the people to much. It is the norm for ppl that dont have skills with traps or often its just more reliable to burn a summon over a trap even if you do know how to. I mean its so fast and assured instead of searching/waiting/accidently stepping on trap during disarm cause glitch/possibly retry to put better gear on cause your off by 1 point. Just Boom boom boom. And your done. Those little goat figurines that summon badgers are worth thier weight in gold. There are a few other cheap tricks that still can be used by even a 1st lvl character to make a master locksmith/trapper look like a chump. Many of us know of these. I wont name them but come on they are super cheap and they are just ways to get around rogues being used.