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Author Topic: Refiring traps  (Read 9973 times)

APorg

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2017, 03:57:59 AM »
One solution could be to look at suggesting we remove that?  Could be worth a discussion if we really feel it's that limiting.  Or, just work around not being able to do everything on your pure wizard/cleric without party members.

I don't think it should be removed if it's base rules. I mean we get enough people already falsely griping that Open Locks should be a Rogue-only Skill, we don't need to take away one that's actually got the Rogue advantaged supported by the rules.
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HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2017, 06:23:28 AM »
Speaking as someone who has not had the chance to play since the update, but will be back in the game in a couple of weeks - How common are these refiring traps? Are they now common server wide or mostly just in Har'Akir?

MAB77

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2017, 06:44:51 AM »
As Zarathustra said, we are aware that new system will need to be adjusted.  Keep us posted as to how it affects you in game, this will help us evaluate the proper level of adjustments needed.

That system is here to stay. It is a direct response to recent concerns that the role of rogues was diminished considering the versatility of other classes. Repeating traps are one of the way to restore a rogue's prime role. We are considering other options too. It is still quite possible for other classes to remove traps, but we are making it easier for rogues to do so by design.


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Knight of Rhodes

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2017, 07:51:29 AM »
Why has everyone forgotten how to speak to one another?

To clarify,  this was done with a very mixed party,  including a not at all weak cross classed rogue,  magic users, and a few stabbers.

I surmise one hall was bugged,  and the other just wanted DC 40 to flag the traps.  Is what it is,  but folks just because I didn't like how this ended up does not mean that we all need to be hostile

MAB,  Zara,  thank you for looking into this and pass my regards to the Dev team for all their hard work.

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Knight of Rhodes

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2017, 08:11:46 AM »
To this I suggest adding not a per character timer, but a universal timer of perhaps a minute or so? 

The issue with a trap firing repeatedly within a short period for the same character could easily be resolved (I'll look at that).

Besides that though, it's very likely (perhaps even to be expected) that some areas will have to be rebalanced as a result.

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Arawn

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2017, 08:13:01 AM »
No, as that would permit the use of summons to clear traps, which we are intentionally preventing.
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Knight of Rhodes

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2017, 08:18:50 AM »
Thanks for the input,  Arawn.  I suppose I will stay frosty and see what y'all have in store.

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Arawn

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2017, 08:20:49 AM »
We may decide that's something we want to permit in the future--but we're trying to resolve the issues that have cropped up within the parameters of our original plan for the present. Keep sharing your experiences, as MAB said.
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Norture

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2017, 11:37:30 AM »
I've done Anubis more than once where I'll start disabling traps, and then, the paladin or tank or cleric decides they'll run through the traps instead since it's faster, there's definitely a mentality that traps are just a nuisance.

With that said, I agree with the sentiment that having a system only one class is capable of removing goes against the other design decisions aimed towards making dungeons more accessible with a wider group composition. If the system is here to stay, it might be good to review some of the existing dungeons and trapped chests so that groups without rogues are able to do them. Basically making it so some dungeons have a hard rogue requirement, but not all dungeons.

Honestly I'd just be happy if the UMD changes were reverted and if the old stealth gear staples became more common again. Some actual rogue-based dungeons would be great too, dungeons that benefit from people having search as well as disable trap and open lock, and has monsters sneak attack works on. Village has a few dungeons with a lot of hidden areas and traps, but, they're filled with undead and the loot is exceptionally poor.

What if the poison system became viable for pvm, and rogues could take a role in debuffing enemies?

SingASongOfDeath

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2017, 01:18:14 PM »
That system is here to stay.

That seems to be both dismissive of the discussion, and against what's been said, already. After a review period, certainly, a final decision could be made, but, as you ought to know, it's very early yet. Much the same was said about UMD changes, and the cost of scrolls. That it would be reviewed, and feedback discussed, and listened to, for several months, before a final decision was made.

This is a community server, MAB. We're all part of a community here, and this needs to be an open discussion. Even if I don't agree with whatever is decided in the end, I think discussion is important.


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HopeIsTheCarrot

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2017, 01:45:27 PM »
That system is here to stay.

That seems to be both dismissive of the discussion, and against what's been said, already. After a review period, certainly, a final decision could be made, but, as you ought to know, it's very early yet. Much the same was said about UMD changes, and the cost of scrolls. That it would be reviewed, and feedback discussed, and listened to, for several months, before a final decision was made.

This is a community server, MAB. We're all part of a community here, and this needs to be an open discussion. Even if I don't agree with whatever is decided in the end, I think discussion is important.

If it has been previously determined that a decision is here to stay, I have no doubt that decision was made after a long process of discussion, involving a wide plethora of informed opinions. I'm not saying that you shouldn't still feel free to voice your opinions on the matter, you should, however it seems to me that our energies would be better spent in a refocused light. For example, since the system is here to stay, how can it be tweaked in a matter that is more beneficial for all players? What are the biggest drawbacks to this new system? What are some potential changes that could be made to improve this new system? It seems to me that developing possible solutions to questions like these is a far more productive use of our time then debating the emergence of a system that is "here to stay." Feel free to voice whatever opinions you want on whatever subjects you want, this is just my suggestion and two cents on the matter.

julienchab

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2017, 01:46:54 PM »
What I actually dislike of the change, and that's something SingaSong brought up, is that rogues are not mandatory to do dungeons. If you don't have a rogue in your party, there is no way to do some/most of the dungeons now. You can work around having no priest, no mage, no druid, heck, even having no realt fighter frontline, if you are creative and use your group to your advantage. But now you cannot work around having no rogue. Yes it means people will need to bring rogue along, and means they are more useful, but it doesn't change the fact that rogues are still behind and that people will only like rogues to take care of traps now, instead of everything else. And it also limits the rogue build somehow, since rogues are only worth it if you take on disable trap/search/open lock.

Arawn

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2017, 01:50:02 PM »
There is no decision or policy that is impervious to criticism or suggestion. That is why we have a forum for such things. There are certainly things we are unlikely to change. But I think MAB meant that we have no present intention of rolling back the new system. What we need right now is feedback and evidence of impact for consideration going forward.

People can still sprint through traps. They can still open trapped chests. They can still bash trapped doors. If you encounter a dungeon that is close to impossible (note, I don't mean 'annoying', I mean 'impossible') without a rogue, report it so we can consider rebalancing or reworking it.
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buyonegetonefree

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2017, 02:05:00 PM »
I am fine with idea of refiring traps in general,  however I don't see why all traps,  without exclusion,  should work like that. Taking Anubis temple as example,  I can see how spike / axe traps in corridor can be turned back into starting position. That's mechanic.
Why does negative (or elemental traps in other dungeons) indefinitely restore their ability to harm,  I can not understand. If elemental / negative traps got an alchemical essence inside,  those supposed to have few charges or only one use.

MAB77

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #39 on: November 10, 2017, 02:16:18 PM »
Totally what Arawn says. Some of you sure read too much in a simple sentence. ;)

We sure have passionate players here, and that is good, but the changes we make are hardly ever as dramatic as some of you make it sound like. Give it a chance and be part of the solution to improve the new system. Whether or not all traps need to refire all the time will be evaluted.

I'd like to point out too that non rogues can still disarm traps AND I added some very good items which helps everyone against traps in the loot tables. Sure rogues have a clear advantage to do so, and yes the most dangerous traps (and let's face it, rarest too) will definitively need a competent trapspringer. But on a server were we encourage the formation of balanced parties I personaly see that as a most desirable outcome.
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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2017, 02:19:32 PM »
That's why I believe it would be better if some sort of utility was given to rogues that would enhance their role in the dungeon, such as if they could reliably debuff targets. Or give more bonuses to pure rogues, or more rogue-only feats. Or have more dungeons that aren't full of sneak attack immune things. The current solution isn't a fix to the rogue class, because the new solution is to just crossclass rogue for skill points. Which I know is already a hot topic that has been discussed as problematic.

As an example of what I mean by a debuff system, imagine if poisoning was expanded so that having a coated weapon have a lasting poison effect, either charges per attack or have a duration for the effect. Although poisons could be purchased, poison brewing could work like alchemy and herbalism, where poisons could be brewed and could have specific effects. Like a poison made from silver dust and wolfsbane would significantly impact lycanthropes and reduce their stats. Make something versus undead even, made out of holy water, garlic, silver/pearl powder, or any reagent of purity. It would do nothing to the living, but when an undead creature is struck with it, it would reduce their strength or movement or reduce DR or any number of things. Because that's what studying poisons represents, knowing what compounds will harm different creatures. It differs from alchemy in that the focus for it is debuffing, rather than varnishes which give damage bonuses.

Something like this would give rogues a unique role in a party. Usually casters don't have spell slots for debuff spells, or the randomness of rolls vs saves makes debuffs not the best use of a spell slot.

julienchab

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2017, 02:20:32 PM »
Non rogues cannot disarm traps over DC 35, which most traps are over that DC in higher level dungeons Mab. Anubis, and the long corridors full of traps is a good example of a dungeon that cannot be done with a rogue now, unless you want everyone to trigger 7 traps on the way in and out.

modderpunk

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2017, 02:30:49 PM »
Maybe it is an idea to make a list of dungeons people feel are (almost) undoable with motivation why so it will be easiest for us devs to look at them maybe adjust them



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MAB77

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2017, 02:34:32 PM »
True enough Chabxxu, but I fail to see what is so bad about having to bring a rogue in some of the toughest dungeons. It is a very good way to make rogues relevant again.

But yes, it does not have to be for all traps.

Great suggestion Modderpunk.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2017, 02:37:48 PM by MAB77 »
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julienchab

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2017, 02:37:32 PM »
They aren't relevant. They are brought along to deal with traps. Period. They will not get buffs because they are useless in combat compared toeveryone else that got buffs with the hak.

Arawn

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2017, 02:40:21 PM »
They aren't relevant. They are brought along to deal with traps. Period. They will not get buffs because they are useless in combat compared toeveryone else that got buffs with the hak.

Still get XP, still get loot, what's the issue?
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MAB77

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 02:44:38 PM »
I disagree with you Chabxxu. Not everything is about battle, the ability to disarm traps is exceptionally relevant to all iterations of D&D. It is a stapple of the game AND the sacrosanct role of the rogue IMHO. It is already a great reason to bring a rogue along.

And remember we are ALSO working on other rogues and fighters related issues. This is just step one to make them as relevant as clerics and wizards.
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julienchab

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2017, 02:51:59 PM »
I disagree with you Chabxxu. Not everything is about battle, the ability to disarm traps is exceptionally relevant to all iterations of D&D. It is a stapple of the game AND the sacrosanct role of the rogue IMHO. It is already a great reason to bring a rogue along.

And remember we are ALSO working on other rogues and fighters related issues. This is just step one to make them as relevant as clerics and wizards.

But you don't /need/ a wizard or a cleric in every dungeon. And that's the point I'm trying to make. You can work around not having one or the other, or even both. Now you cannot work around having no rogue without disable trap.

SingASongOfDeath

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2017, 02:55:25 PM »
I disagree with you Chabxxu. Not everything is about battle, the ability to disarm traps is exceptionally relevant to all iterations of D&D. It is a stapple of the game AND the sacrosanct role of the rogue IMHO. It is already a great reason to bring a rogue along.

And remember we are ALSO working on other rogues and fighters related issues. This is just step one to make them as relevant as clerics and wizards.

But you don't /need/ a wizard or a cleric in every dungeon. And that's the point I'm trying to make. You can work around not having one or the other, or even both. Now you cannot work around having no rogue without disable trap.

This is a point I tried to make earlier, but it seemed to go unnoticed. :/


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MAB77

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Re: Refiring traps
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2017, 02:59:00 PM »
How is that a point ? You don't NEED to go in all or any dungeons at all. And not all places requires a rogue either. Some will some won't, same for places requiring, or not, wizards and clerics to survive.
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