In Regards to the New Feats and Mundane Characters

[McNastea]

Well, you're talking about giving more skill points to a class that is already flush with them. It is a boost to be sure, but in my opinion not as much as the one that has been brought up in the past, which is giving them an increase in the number of feats they can take, and falls in line with my own outlook on the class which is, more skill points and class skills/less feats overall. That's why fighter is a good choice to take with rogue, because you get a lot more feats and simply by reaching the minimum required 5 levels you'd -have- to take for that combo you end up with your 4th apr that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

edit: Rarely, when majoring rogue, do I find myself thinking "I -need- more skill points". Instead, every second of every minute of your existence is spent yearning for a feat that will never be, scheming and plotting how you might eke one extra one out of your build, but to no avail.

If that puts the feat to skill value in perspective for you. 

[Pav]

For self-sufficiency a mundane is weaker than a non-mundane. I have played all sorts of characters to 12+ and I think I can be lent credibility in thinking that.

My reactions to claims that Rogues shouldn't replace Wizards have already been written: they never did, and they never will, and if anything, a well built wizard replaces a rogue and nullifies his existence.

In parties, classes are still well balanced, in my opinion, but that's not all the module will ever be about, and you're not gonna be buffed by a level 17 wizard for every potential encounter.

[McNastea]

I wasn't trying to insinuate you don't have credibility, Pav, only trying to lend some to myself.

I think we come at it from different perspectives, however. As I said, I enjoy the fact that a mundane class isn't left with their pants down when caught without their magic prepared or active. True, it takes some added effort and benefits greatly from things like alchemy, scrolls and herbalism; but I find that to be enough to get them by when they need it. A party isn't all this server is about true enough, but from a pve standpoint at the very least, encouraging parties and well balanced ones at that has always been important by my understanding. Mundanes are great additions to any party, rogues still make the best rogues and wizards can't replace a rogue because only rogues have the ability to disable traps above DC 35. That's not a numbers thing, to anyone not aware, that's just the rules. You might have more disable than that, but if you don't have rogue levels it doesn't matter. DC 35 is as high as you can disable. There is of course the summon sacrifice and shapechange resistances to face trip them, and if that's enough of an issue that rogues are being left behind in favor of a wizard instead of both then perhaps those methods of dealing with traps could be addressed. If too many people besides rogues are able to pick locks -too- easily, that could also be addressed simply by looking at gear available and lock DC's. I don't think that either of those are necessary, but if enough people feel that rogues are undervalued currently because of these things then those are a couple good places to look to maybe?

Not everything I said was directed towards you, either. I've seen others suggest that rogues should not replace wizards and I was addressing them in that regard.

Once again, I do think the lower level scrolls could and should be made cheaper - that or another alternative for the same resolution. In that case, I feel like we agree on this despite our differing opinion on their viability overall.

[IrishIron]

I'd like to say I agree on large part with the fact that mundanes  like fighters and rogues have fallen to the way side especially with the power boosts the other classes have got from  this hak. (That being said I greatly appreciate the considerable  amount of work and dedication that went into this hak. You guys are amazing) I have a suggestion and I know it may make someone throw a chair but...

If non rogues are suddenly filling the roll of rogues as good or better than rogues themselves why don't the lockpicks become rogue only tools. They are a class that actually gets open lock as a class skill. And these are considered to be specialized tools not magical "poke in the door and viola". Just like a mage staff is a special thing that mages can handle. Same with many wands etc.

This alone would make places that are high DC dungeons push back in a rogue to being valuable again. Just like mages are needed for many high end places.

Lockpicks are not something just anyone can pick up and be like "oh yeah... I need this one and this one" (of the presumable half dozen or more picks that would be in one set of lockpick tools)

[Night of Reod]

I'd like to say I agree on large part with the fact that mundanes  like fighters and rogues have fallen to the way side especially with the power boosts the other classes have got from  this hak. (That being said I greatly appreciate the considerable  amount of work and dedication that went into this hak. You guys are amazing) I have a suggestion and I know it may make someone throw a chair but...

If non rogues are suddenly filling the roll of rogues as good or better than rogues themselves why don't the lockpicks become rogue only tools. They are a class that actually gets open lock as a class skill. And these are considered to be specialized tools not magical "poke in the door and viola". Just like a mage staff is a special thing that mages can handle. Same with many wands etc.

This alone would make places that are high DC dungeons push back in a rogue to being valuable again. Just like mages are needed for many high end places.

Lockpicks are not something just anyone can pick up and be like "oh yeah... I need this one and this one" (of the presumable half dozen or more picks that would be in one set of lockpick tools)

 I very much agree with this one, and I would even like for lock DCs to be higher, so there is a reason for rogues to actually use them. As it stands, I rarely ever use lockpicks and it's been that way for a while, especially anything more than a +3 or +6 lockpick. Currently, lockpicks just make people with crossclass open lock skill be able to open anything, and do next to nothing for rogues themselves.

 I would also even suggest making the act of picking a lock or disabling a trap remove invisibility, and possibly even stealth, and it is supposed to be an involved task that takes concentration and time, and I think even the not-so-bright enemies can figure out a there is someone squatting in front of a chest playing with lockpicks and trying to get the lock open, especially if that is what they are there to protect in the first place.

[Philos]

As I said, I enjoy the fact that a mundane class isn't left with their pants down when caught without their magic prepared or active. True, it takes some added effort and benefits greatly from things like alchemy, scrolls and herbalism; but I find that to be enough to get them by when they need i

The issue is that it already took time, gold and effort. You might have been able to get what you at one point in time, but that's not the case anymore. I already sunk most of my looting spree gold in to scrolling up. We don't need the scrolls you find to be twice as rare and the ones you buy twice as expensive.

[IrishIron]

Make mundanes better at mundane things than non mundanes.

[McNastea]

I've tried to reiterate this, and maybe it's just that you want all the scrolls to be less expensive - but I do in fact believe that the lower level ones, namely 3rd level and lower, be what they were in terms of value and availability.

That covers all the ability buffs, the stealth buffs, knock, find traps - practically all your utility spells for ninja looting as far as I can think. That does, as far as I could make out, address the issue of investment in to ability to ninja loot being greater than what you stand to gain, right? If that is addressed, at least in so far as scroll value and rarity relates to a classes ability to perform up to par while doing their solo thing, then the fact that you have to make a tougher decision between immunity to negative energy or simply drinking a potion and wearing a ring for /15 doesn't seem nearly so important and kind of reasonable. While I enjoy the hell out of being able to use a shadow shield or greater stoneskin or spell mantle, there's no reason that it shouldn't be exorbitantly expensive to do so.

I will say at least that I'm not fond of the idea that the drops are rarer now, which I understand go hand in hand. If there is a way to make it one but not the other I'd like that. As it was scrolls of any significant value were rare enough drops and I can't imagine how ridiculous it will be now. If I feel for anyone most of all it's the new wizards who want to learn a spell and can't find it off any player merchants or NPC's because they just won't drop ever and aren't sold anywhere by default.



I like the lockpick idea even though it would negatively impact a few of my characters.

[emptyanima]

I think the issue that stands out to me is the following; Rogues, Fighters and Monks are much more dependant on gear to succeed in their role than their caster friends. The gear itself is not plentiful, and drops rarely because ‘vendor trash’ is too abundant. This means that it’s often prohibitively expensive. This does cross over with the merchant change mentioned in a separate thread. I agree that more RP is always a good thing. However, the issue I see for gear-dependant classes is this — you need the gear to acquire the gold, and you need a lot of gold to acquire the gear. If you are making less money from your appraise skill investment, the already tedious process of gearing the rogue becomes even harder. I am not talking about very rare gear that helps the rogue reach their pinnacle. I am talking about acquiring the gear to help the rogue be functional and simply viable. This will be the problem for newer Rogues, who will not be able to attain the same level of skill bonuses as older characters. It is likely boggling to many players that some have the amount of gold that they do. I am concerned that this deepens the perceived divide between the haves and the have-nots.

So how do we fix that? Well, I think we need to reconsider the amount of vendor trash we have. If saving money to buy items is going to be made more difficult, especially for gear that is far more scarce (again I reiterate that this is not high level gear, just what you need to get your foot in the door), then more useful items should be appearing more often. Before, it could be more easily justified because at that point at least it would make you some money. This could still be a driving force for roleplay, as rather than trading money, you can bolster your lowly offer of coin with an item of reasonable value to someone else. This still makes bartering more important, and it would be important to find the right person for your trade. Just my two pence on the matter, as someone playing 2 mundane mains at the moment, one for whom gear is not a concern and one for whom it is.

[emptyanima]

A quick addendum - a lot of what I define as 'vendor trash' includes items item with incredibly limited use in specific situations. We see too much of that, and not enough gear that offers a general improvement without being too situational.

[McNastea]

That makes a lot of sense to me! Remember when barbarians would have been included on that list? 

But yeah, there are quite a few items that either have no function at all like spices and stuff like that other than to play as a more atmospheric item to the GP it represents you looting, hogging all the drop chance spots. Some items that in general are just not used. Even some whose apparent function is made irrelevant by the list of negatives, which are rarer still but a strange thing to see. By irrelevant I don't mean something which has penalties that outweigh the benefit, I mean something that for example would give +1 to listen but -2 to wisdom.

But I think I digress, sorry sorry!

[Chaoshawk]

I don't think the feats, spells, and other changes are the reason mundanes have fallen out of favor but it has far more to do with dungeons and the looting system as a whole. Loot attrition is part of the reason mundanes are being edged out more so than they have in the past. For example stealth gear is more rare because there's a lot junk items with spell uses that cover the same item value as a lot of mid-tier stealing items. As a result, you're likely to find a pair of monk clothes that has a weird spell as well as stats that don't do anything to help you instead of an item like a stalker's shortbow or a similar level item. Reducing loot piles as well which has been noticeable to me in a few places but I'll provide the Shadow Woods as an example the average player will have noted as being reduced in number of lootable places depending on the spawn. I think adjusting loot tables and removing a lot of flavor items would go a long way restoring supply of serviceable gear that mundanes can utilize better to remain competitive.

Those who want to use h/ms would benefit from the old stealth gear as well as the new stuff spawning. Fighters and monks from AC gear rather than items of high value that are almost entirely flavor and used to sell off at vendors because no one player is willing to sell that to another because it simply isn't serviceable. I understand the merchant pricing changes are in line to encourage player-player bartering and trade interactions but first there needs to be more items worth keeping to sell to players than items that are just 'vendor trash'. A look at the loot table would go a long way to helping in that regard. While there are definitely items that players love to sell to one another there can be positive changes made to help push things in that direction.

About scrolls, I think there's a solution there and its a separate issue that is further burdened by what I typed above and what emptyanima said about vendor trash is something that is a significant issue for gear-dependant classes that can't rely on magic other than scrolls or potions. Personally, my main character is a 'mundane' and largely what cannot be found in gear has been supplemented by herbalism when gear is largely absent. My character is lucky to have a few older items and to be wealthy in a way an average mundane might not be able to accomplish, but the norm is very difficult for a character that has had its start this year when several nerfs were noted by looters. I think Jeebs is right that spot and listen gear is very common while stealth gear is far less common. Scrolls supplement this and adds on to the issue already faced by gear-starved rogues. In this climate I wouldn't start another fighter or rogue because it would be very tricky to find gear unless I managed to come across a player with one of the few good pieces of equipment remaining. I'd much rather play a caster class or a Barbarian because it's far easier to get by without much equipment and any equipment is just an enhancer, not a dire necessity to even function properly. There is a balance to be had for sure but it's definitely not in the favor of mundane fighters or rogues.

[Pav]

I wasn't trying to insinuate you don't have credibility, Pav, only trying to lend some to myself.

Never said you didn't have it or that you insinuated against mine, all good

As for the PvE point, I am strongly against soloing even though I have done it myself in the past (for testing purposes... and okay, maybe sometimes for mindless bashing), but I still believe that even if it's their point to get caught with their pants down, it's so far down the slope that it's getting nearly pointless to play them. I look at the player list every now and then, and out of the characters I know (and I know quite a bit of them I'd like to think) at least 80% were casters or hybrid casters. The bias is real and it's there, and there's no incentive other than the flavor to play a rogue/fighter. What will that energy resist feat help you with when a Barbarian comes by, rages and smacks you into the ground.

I agree with McNastea on the lower level scrolls needing their price reduced rather than all of them, however.

[McNastea]

I'm not even gonna try to argue the point of a barbarian smacking you down. If a barbarian wants to smack you down, smacked down you will get. . .

Look I haven't said this before so it occurs to me that I probably should make it clear. I do sympathize with the feeling that a person playing a mundane character would feel after seeing barbarians get an enormous increase to their already ridiculous SR. They are now, at sufficiently high level and build, a click of a button away from buffed and to great extent, for quite some time as well. They have slipped from what, prior to to previous hak, would have been considered a mundane class in to one that is now not. Then there are those with turn undead and their plethora of fun new feats, or druids with their wildshape feats. Bards! All of them increase the classes power, indisputably.

Then you get rogues who have their precious scrolls drop chance increased, vendor price increased and nothing even close to what these other classes gained in terms of ability.

That stinks! Not to say the hak stinks, it's a fantastic piece of work. I just totally get where people are coming from. I may take it in stride more because I'm playing across a lot of characters rather than investing fully in my one character who is truly affected by it all, but I really do understand why it's gotten the reaction it has. I like EA and Chaos's ideas on the matter because they work within the changes that were made for a reason and keep them in place while still addressing the concerns certain players may have about their class.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Please everyone let's keep this topic about the new feats.

And to reiterate - we have only just implemented the feats and while we did our best to make them balanced, we'll have a much better impression of it after a few months. Right now all we do is speculate so let's give it a chance to unfold in the game first.

And again, we by no means ment to ignore rogues with the feats. We wanted to give something nice to the players, and while did try to focus especially on classes we knew were underrepresented, it ultimately came down to what feats we could find that seemed balanced and could practically be implemented. It's just as simple as that.

[McNastea]

Soren, I don't think you should, and hope and feel, you shouldn't feel the need to defend the HAK.

It's awesome, I love it, you love it, the american people love it. We all love it. (please don't kill me for this SNL reference)

There is just a frankly understandable discrepancy between what some classes got and others were given. As said, Chaos and EA had really interesting ideas in how to handle that. Obviously it's not something that can be figured purely off conjecture, but what they say is intelligent and should be considered by the Dev Team. They are knowledgeable players with a more than firm grasp of the server's systems both mechanically and how they translate in to rp and PW economics.

[Sinful Mystic]

I wasn't trying to insinuate you don't have credibility, Pav, only trying to lend some to myself.

Never said you didn't have it or that you insinuated against mine, all good

As for the PvE point, I am strongly against soloing even though I have done it myself in the past (for testing purposes... and okay, maybe sometimes for mindless bashing), but I still believe that even if it's their point to get caught with their pants down, it's so far down the slope that it's getting nearly pointless to play them. I look at the player list every now and then, and out of the characters I know (and I know quite a bit of them I'd like to think) at least 80% were casters or hybrid casters. The bias is real and it's there, and there's no incentive other than the flavor to play a rogue/fighter. What will that energy resist feat help you with when a Barbarian comes by, rages and smacks you into the ground.

I agree with McNastea on the lower level scrolls needing their price reduced rather than all of them, however.

I noticed a something tonight on that note. Had to dash in to the ML Temple for a rescue and when we got back up my companion (a paladin) and I (a bard) saw a row full of casters and one halfing (rogue or ranger) waiting around for someone who could hold the front. In the end they decided to hunt rats for coin because that was all they could do.

I found this funny for a couple reasons. Partly because it showed the reluctance to play non paladin fighters but it also showed that there is a need for these classes at low levels. I find clerics pretty uncommon too which I can only guess is due to the heavy rp demands.

So this got me to thinking about the classes my two characters are friends with.

Almost all of Mishandra's friends (elves mostly) are casters. Two rogues (one pure one multi with ranger). In fact I do not know another Elf who wears full plate or uses a shield. Most of her human friends are casters and paladins.

Angel's friends, 1 monk, 1 fighter-rogue, a bunch of bards 1 paladin and couple wizards 2 clerics

The sword and shield fighter is pretty much non existent, Kaine and Borval the only ones I can think of. Almost every rogue has fighter/ranger and every fighter has rogue.

I know from experience that paladins have no problems getting into a party but also barely need one, bards are much lower demand and once you hit mid levels your fighter is not really wanted unless you know people who see the benefits of buffing the fighter over themselves. Clerics never seem to want to do this.

Granted my view is limited, mostly to the pleb side of the server but I have to think my characters and their peers are the future of the server. So this does show some concerning trends.

I made Mishandra, a paladin because my last try on the server I wasted months developing a weapon master that got turned down. So I said to myself why risk that when I can play a paladin without a prc? And this is another factor I am sure. So many fighter related prc's aren't being used because if it does not work out you are stuck with a useless fighter who has to take rogue.

I'd suggest getting rid of the ap process for WM, BG and CoT. Do a paladin count sometime, it's surprising how many there are while all these PRC's are going to waste. On top of that I bet you there is almost no variation in their feats and skills. Are any of these fighter type prc's more powerful than a wizard or cleric? My guess is no. WM can't crit 85% of things so his main power is nerfed. Having to jump through hoops to get these classes just doesn't make sense. If you want to talk about rp quality do a count of bad clerics and paladins  and ask yourself is it better to have a bunch of poorly played clerics and paladins instead of some poorly played weapon masters or blackguards?

[Arawn]

You don't need a PrC to play a "mundane," and taking rogue on a fighter is not a drawback, it's practically a necessity.

[Sinful Mystic]

Yes but it shows the undesirability of a pure fighter which was my point. Maybe tumble should become a fighter class skill? The PRC's was just my little addition to the topic.

[Night of Reod]

I said this before in more detail, but I don't think making "pure fighter" a thing is necessary. Fighter was never intended to be a class you take 20 levels in to begin with, it is intended to be a simple yet effective class for newcomers to get used to the rules, as well as an option for multiclassing. Not to mention, pure fighter has its own niche, if you want a character who can use two separate melee weapons and a ranged weapon to full effect while also taking other important feats such as expertise, improved knockdown and the like, for example a character who dual wields a rapier and a shortsword and also uses a bow when it is more appropriate. If that is not the character you want, then you are free to multiclass with rogue, ranger or some other class, or play those classes entirely to begin with, and I think that is fine.

[Philos]

Has any consideration been given to reworking some of the requirements for the feats Overwhelming Critical and Superior Initiative? Overwhelming crit would be a welcome addition for pure class fighters and Superior Initiative would be nice for Assassins.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Overwhelming_critical

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Superior_initiative

This is a pretty straight foward feat to add: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicalAptitude

Magical Aptitude

You get a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks and Use Magic Device checks.

It mirrors the Stealthy and Alertness in terms of skill point value. I'd like to see a similar feat added that would increase Pick Pock and Open Lock by +2 as well. Perhaps titled "Deft Hands" or something of the sort.

Edit
Another interesting one: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#nimbleFingers

Nimble Fingers

You get a +2 bonus on all Disable Device checks and Open Lock checks.

Some existing and some easily adapted feats for mundanes.

[wildflame]

I'm not even gonna try to argue the point of a barbarian smacking you down. If a barbarian wants to smack you down, smacked down you will get. . .

Only if you're not buffed.

[Iridni Ren]

This is a pretty straight foward feat to add: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicalAptitude

Magical Aptitude

You get a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks and Use Magic Device checks.

It mirrors the Stealthy and Alertness in terms of skill point value. I'd like to see a similar feat added that would increase Pick Pock and Open Lock by +2 as well. Perhaps titled "Deft Hands" or something of the sort.

Edit
Another interesting one: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#nimbleFingers

Nimble Fingers

You get a +2 bonus on all Disable Device checks and Open Lock checks.

Those feats support what I was saying to FlyingLotus earlier (that a feat typically is the equivalent of 4 skill points).

They would perhaps be worthwhile for other non-mundane classes, but for rogues (by FL's argument that rogues have many skill points, few feats), they wouldn't be as desirable as a rogue feat (Extra Versatile?) that granted one extra skill point per rogue level. The other nice feature of the latter is that it's not all at once, but a gradual increase to the rogue's ability. That would perhaps make for a slightly greater variation in characters, as PCs could choose between the quick "bang" of the feats above (especially PCs who dip), versus those who want to go pure rogue and choose Extra Versatile.

[HopeIsTheCarrot]

Throwing a new feat in there that they can optionally take as opposed to something else more necessary, when they already have so few to pick from, to give them something they already gain a lot of, doesn't seem as much like a buff as a tease to me

I'm surprised at this direction of criticism because I was worried the feat would be considered too powerful, lol.

Because lots of general feats let you get +4 skill points in only one or two (+2 in each) categories. That means we could consider a feat worth 4 skill points. This feat could be worth as many as 20 skill points.

You could further limit it so the skill point was gained only when taking rogue levels--which would also keep PCs who dip rogue from receiving as much benefit as a pure rogue would.

I actually really like this idea for a few reasons:

1. It would be a Rogue only feat, which I think is necessary in the effort to specifically help out Rogues.
2. Loads of skill points isn't already a Rogue strength, so it doesn't seem at all out of place to me to provide them with a little more of what the universe are already great at.
3. It provides a mechanical advantage to staying pure Rogue or keeping rogue as the primarily class, which I feel is an incentive which is currently lacking from the Rogue class.
4. It balances itself out by requiring Rogues to take it as a feat, which is a noteable sacrifice for a class that doesn't get a ton of feats.
5. It helps cover the deficit left in UMD and Stealth skills by recent UMD modifications and scroll price changes, without providing ridiculously powerful Rogue gear.

[Sinful Mystic]

I said this before in more detail, but I don't think making "pure fighter" a thing is necessary. Fighter was never intended to be a class you take 20 levels in to begin with, it is intended to be a simple yet effective class for newcomers to get used to the rules, as well as an option for multiclassing. Not to mention, pure fighter has its own niche, if you want a character who can use two separate melee weapons and a ranged weapon to full effect while also taking other important feats such as expertise, improved knockdown and the like, for example a character who dual wields a rapier and a shortsword and also uses a bow when it is more appropriate. If that is not the character you want, then you are free to multiclass with rogue, ranger or some other class, or play those classes entirely to begin with, and I think that is fine.

I am unsure about some of your claims here. Fighter was never a class intended to take to lvl 20? NWN was designed with wider parameters than we have here on POTM. On a high magic server with +5 weapons/armor/shield and other items to resist certain affects you can indeed make a pure fighter quite competitive. Let's not forget the overwhelming/devastating crit feats which can allow a fighter to kill anything in a shot. I cannot imagine where you got this idea that it was designed to just learn the rules. I have never read that anywhere. You are basically dismissing the pure fighter as unimportant due to these opinions and I am not sure that is a strong position.

It seems fairly obvious to me that all the extra feats that fighters get was some sort of attempt to level the playing field. You look at potm and the reason most fighters add rogue from what I can tell is for the tumble dumps, the sneaks which compliment KD really well, and the locks. I'm sure there are exceptions but I think that is true for most.

I have not played every class on potm so I cannot weigh in on class balance but I have played fighters. What I notice is that many of the fighter advantages have been taken away from them. Normally your fighters and clerics are going to be boss for ac, not here. Weapon finesse coupled with the parry system strengthen dex based rogues and rangers immensely. Both classes already had a lot of reason to pump dex but now a Halfling or elf rogue can do a fine job of matching the fighters ab and can exceed his ac fairly easily. There is no stat potion like cats grace that will improve a fighters ac, that potion does a shit load for the rogue or ranger though adding ac both with parry and base dex ac bonus as well as adding to their ab and god knows how many skills. That fighter can drink his bull potion and get some ab and damage, he's harder to knock down but the total impact is much smaller.

Another thing that detracts from fighter is giving everyone free KD and disarm. Their big edge is extra feats allowing them to take these things when other class would have to compromise to take either let alone both.

I know the big panic here is on stealthers and scrolls but I think more could be done to encourage fighters. As I suggested before making tumble a class skill alone might remove the motive for a number of cross class fighters. That a dex based dual wielder can easily exceed the ac of our metal clad fighter making the fighter even less appealing. Yes fighters can be dex builds too but then your damage suffers unless...you guessed it! you add rogue for sneak attacks. I might also suggest something like a massive crit feat for pure fighters not unlike the HIPs rangers get rewarded with if they stay pure.

Fighters should be a staple, not an endangered species.