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Author Topic: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?  (Read 1514 times)

Philos

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Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« on: September 02, 2017, 02:56:46 PM »
Not sure if this is a bug or a feature, but the recently added Speak Language skill seems to only be available as a Class Skill for Bards. With the exception of barbarians and druids I'd really consider Speak Language to be a general skill. I think this would be a suitable skill for Wizards, Rogues, Assassins and any other class that use intelligence.

Move this to the General Feedback if it is working as intended please.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2017, 08:21:39 PM by Philos »

DM Brimstone

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 03:36:02 PM »
Per the Dev boards, Speak Language is a class skill for bards only. That corresponds with the 3.5ed ruleset. This is working as it is intended.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2020, 03:10:26 PM »
Per the Dev boards, Speak Language is a class skill for bards only. That corresponds with the 3.5ed ruleset. This is working as it is intended.

So...I was talking to another player earlier today and just discovered that Speak Language is a class skill for bard only. Sure enough, this is true in its 3.5 description.

HOWEVER...in 3.5 it also costs only 1 skill point per language, whereas here it's *five* points. That seems pretty unbalanced in that for many builds 10 skill points can be more than three levels' worth, and in some cases even five levels.


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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2020, 03:25:59 PM »
Probably because most classes can get away with 14 int to reap all the other benefits and get the languages essentially for free, plus polyglot, plus fighter level padding, etc. there's plenty of spare to invest if it's important that your character is bilingual or multilingual.

Personally, I think it's okay that some characters will never learn a new language, and their home language is essentially a part of their background and nothing more, so they always have to communicate in Common, which was buffed here. It is no longer just a trade language, like it is in standard DnD. It may be described as less emotive but it is a full language.
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Iridni Ren

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2020, 03:55:50 PM »
Probably because most classes can get away with 14 int to reap all the other benefits and get the languages essentially for free

Adding +2 to Int yields 1 extra skill point and 1 bonus language.

Hence:

1 skill point is equivalent to 1 language slot.

To repeat the salient point, the current skill point cost is a 500 percent departure from 3.5.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2020, 03:57:42 PM by Iridni Ren »

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SardineTheAncestor

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2020, 04:15:26 PM »
The change you are suggesting would allow even 10 int characters to become multilingual with 4 skillpoints invested and not so much as a feat. 4 skillpoints in most other cross-class skills doesn't get you a thing.

I assume this change was at least in part intentional, because we already have tons of characters who can speak like 4 or 5 languages, not including Common. A language is a lot, depending on how you look at it; the barrier of not speaking it is a very seriously real thing, especially if your character misses important information and never learns what was said. It is one of those repelling forces for an outlander that can regularly remind them they do not belong, and I think it's important that is preserved.
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Hathor

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2020, 04:40:47 PM »
The change you are suggesting would allow even 10 int characters to become multilingual with 4 skillpoints invested and not so much as a feat. 4 skillpoints in most other cross-class skills doesn't get you a thing.

I assume this change was at least in part intentional, because we already have tons of characters who can speak like 4 or 5 languages, not including Common. A language is a lot, depending on how you look at it; the barrier of not speaking it is a very seriously real thing, especially if your character misses important information and never learns what was said. It is one of those repelling forces for an outlander that can regularly remind them they do not belong, and I think it's important that is preserved.

+1

The current system provides no mechanical or fun downsides. It is more realistic and RP friendly.

Iridni Ren

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2020, 09:06:17 AM »
The current system provides no mechanical or fun downsides.

This is simply false. Making such sweeping generalizations indicates a complete misapprehension of the fundamentals of game play.

Investing skill points in a skill inherently creates the "mechanical downside" of not being able to invest those skill points in other skills. This is so obvious I find having to state it both frustrating and astonishing.

The point of a language system should be to enhance immersion: people in one part of the setting are likely to speak a different language. Different races can have their own languages.

On a roleplay server it should not be a major obstacle to roleplay.

To justify that this skill costs five times as much as it does in 3.5, one needs to argue that it conveys some mechanical advantage that requires balancing. If this is the case, why is it made bard exclusive? Were bards in need of a buff? I don't think anyone would argue that.

No, the justification for making it bard exclusive is that this reflects 3.5. So again, in 3.5 it is 1 skill point per language.

The argument that many PCs are already walking around with lots of languages is also specious. That Devs would spend time implementing this skill indicates a desire to give players greater ability to learn additional languages. Had the status quo been adequate with PCs having an over-abundance of languages, why bother?

I would be very curious as to how many PCs have actually cross-classed this skill and invested 10 skill points to learn a single language.

As to equating this to some other skill, imagine an item that granted 10 skill points in say...hide, parry, spot, search, or move silently. What would its value be? Those are actual mechanical skills. This is a pure RP skill.

Finally, a fundamental desire of the server's design is that high-level PCs move away from the starting area. To encourage this, Devs have also gone to the trouble of the much loathed by many RP restriction in low level areas.

Many PCs have no desire to move elsewhere and play on this server because of OOC setting preferences but also because what fits the character. It makes no story sense for the PC to relocate. Yet when this argument occurs, Devs defend the RP restriction because of server design. Well, if the desire is force high levels to move elsewhere even against their will, then additional obstacles to being able to RP elsewhere should not be created through grossly inflated skill point costs in contravention of 3.5 standards.

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Hathor

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2020, 10:51:23 AM »
The current system provides no mechanical or fun downsides.

This is simply false. Making such sweeping generalizations indicates a complete misapprehension of the fundamentals of game play.

Investing skill points in a skill inherently creates the "mechanical downside" of not being able to invest those skill points in other skills. This is so obvious I find having to state it both frustrating and astonishing.

I'm sorry to inconvenience you by causing you to have to state it.

I'm aware that investing skill points in Speak Language costs skill points. The basic concept of math does, in fact, dictate that this removes skill points from other skills which a player may want to invest in. Despite my severe brain damage at the age of three when I was dropped off of a speeding Vistani wagon going 20 MPH over the speed limit, I'm following the concept so far. I think you've merely misunderstood my point, fair, I was vague and thus deserved to have my intelligence questioned.

Nevertheless, there is zero mechanical penalty for having less languages.

If I only speak Common, there is no effect on:
- Crafting
- Combat
- Ability to log into the game
- Ability to log out
- Rentals
- Turning in bounties
- PvP
- ERP
- Shapeshifting
- Herb picking
- Waiting for the Mist Camp wagon
- Sneaking into someone else's Mist Camp Wagon
- Running away when you're caught sneaking into a Mist Camp wagon
- Fighting for the glorious revolution against the degenerate Gendarmie

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The point of a language system should be to enhance immersion: people in one part of the setting are likely to speak a different language. Different races can have their own languages.

Da, the reason I call out the current system as more RP friendly is clarified by the word proceeding one step prior: "realistic". It is unrealistic for everyone to speak a bunch of languages. Learning languages is hard, requires time and effort. There are ways around the skill system, for example, simply living with the fact that not every person can be an ascended savant capable of all things. There is also the feat, Polyglot.

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On a roleplay server it should not be a major obstacle to roleplay.

If it is a major obstacle to roleplay then that is, I am sorry to say, in character and a good thing. IC obstacles are good. We cannot hope that each and every character can do and be everything. It is equally an "obstacle" that drow cannot be garda, that Hazlan slaves cannot go wherever they please, and so on. Neither is it actually an obstacle, it's simply an obstacle with choice and consequence. The trouble is wanting everything, rather than being shut out of something. Hard choices are good. If I love the elves so much that I want to learn their language, I must devote time and effort to being a silly elf. If it doesn't matter enough to me that I am unwilling to sacrifice anything for it, well then.

Quote
To justify that this skill costs five times as much as it does in 3.5, one needs to argue that it conveys some mechanical advantage that requires balancing. If this is the case, why is it made bard exclusive? Were bards in need of a buff? I don't think anyone would argue that.

No, it's simply silly for every single character to speak ten language. It is immersion breaking. For bards, it arguably makes sense.

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No, the justification for making it bard exclusive is that this reflects 3.5. So again, in 3.5 it is 1 skill point per language.

Not my argument, don't personally care, and decisions should be made based on how they affect the PW.

As an aside, please be a little more respectful in your responses.

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2020, 03:54:58 PM »
Iridni, you've been repeatedly warned about your tone and approach to debates on this forum. Please moderate your approach if you wish to continue to participate in discussions.
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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2020, 04:31:41 PM »
I was looking at the notion of cross classing a language. I may still do but two and a half levels worth of skill points (10) for my character (14 int Paladin) seems high though. It's seems like only an option for classes that don't need it, Wizards who get a ton anyway and skill points to burn, and Bards who have it as a class skill. Otherwise it will probably not be used much, if at all, at such a high cost.

I would like to see it come down but I also understand how complex balancing is so I would not argue over it. Languages for the most part are rp tools. I don't see me learning Balok as having nearly the same impact as a point of dodge ac or a +1 mind spell save, both of which are also 10 cross class skill points in tumble and spell craft respectively. Even a small drop in the language cost to 3 or 4 would have a huge impact in my opinion.
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Erika Tinescu

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Re: Hak test - Speak Language Bard Only?
« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2020, 04:36:41 PM »
There are no plans to revisit the requirements for extra languages.