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Author Topic: The State of Loot  (Read 6078 times)

Siege Spectre

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #25 on: August 05, 2017, 05:19:39 PM »
Some of the balances are heavily befouling the loots original intent, though.  The best case I can think of is the Pharoah's Favor.  Before the hak came along that introduced khopesh swords as an option, the Pharoah's Favor was a pretty useful scimitar.  When Khopesh swords (essentially reskinned longswords) came in, the original stats of the weapon were kept, but a knockdown feat was added, as Khopesh swords provide an inherent ability to KD.  In order to balance that, the weapon was given -6 dexterity.

-6 dexterity is -3 reflex saves, -3 AC, and -3 to all dex related skills.  The addition of the KD feat may have had high value on other servers, but as PotM offers a plethora of feats to every class build, the value of that is extremely muted here.  The weapon is effectively so badly balanced now, that it is never used in favor of weapons that do not suffer this kind of debilitating effect.  This where Pharoah's Favor was originally intended to be one of the better loot drops out of Har'Akir.

That particular case has always bothered me.  And it is only one example, as others have pointed to other situations similar.

FinalHeaven

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #26 on: August 05, 2017, 05:50:29 PM »
But is there even a real problem to address here? Because I don't see it. This is not Diablo or other hack and slash games where the sole real goal is ever to acquire fatter and bigger loot as to grind XP more easily. This a roleplay server, and though we certainly catter to a wide variety of play style, hack & slashers included, emphasis on one's equipment should never be that important. I'm an old timer now, with over 30 years of RPG experience, I have never ever seen a single instance where the inclusion of more powerful gear was an improvement to a game.

Judging by this thread and the ones before it including threads like the the Vestments of Faith nerf, I do not think it is fair to say there is no problem.  Clearly a number of people think there is.  Whether or not it is a "real" problem is of course entirely personal opinion.  Obviously the development staff does not believe so, but I think it is important to still be aware that obviously a number or people disagree and thus perhaps some discourse on the situation is warranted.

As for your 30 years of experience, with all due respect, we are playing a game that closely mimics a tabletop roleplaying game in which dungeoning and acquiring better gear and neat treasure as well as experience points to become better and stronger heroes is - very much objectively so - a part of the core element of the game.  It is entirely possibly that yours (or other peoples) experience with DnD was different, but that is absolutely an exception to the widely agreed upon way the game was meant to be played.



wildflame

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #27 on: August 05, 2017, 05:57:46 PM »
I'd like nicer things..

Iridni Ren

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2017, 06:19:57 PM »
As for your 30 years of experience, with all due respect, we are playing a game that closely mimics a tabletop roleplaying game in which dungeoning and acquiring better gear and neat treasure as well as experience points to become better and stronger heroes is - very much objectively so - a part of the core element of the game.  It is entirely possibly that yours (or other peoples) experience with DnD was different, but that is absolutely an exception to the widely agreed upon way the game was meant to be played.

I think the two of you are talking about two slightly different things. Yes, all DnD involves "dungeoning and acquiring better gear and neat treasure," but also look at the second part of what you said: "as well as experience points to become better and stronger heroes."

We're capped at 20th level. Likewise, MAB is saying top-level gear is capped. If either of those keeps increasing, it becomes difficult to provide a challenge to high levels.

It's presumed once you max on level and equipment...you'll eventually closure your PC. Or if not, you'll stick around for RP only. The server isn't designed (and there aren't humans around) to keep supplying new content for higher and higher levels.

I'd like nicer things..

You bet!

I hope the new hakpak has lots of nice things :)

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FinalHeaven

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2017, 06:53:27 PM »
As for your 30 years of experience, with all due respect, we are playing a game that closely mimics a tabletop roleplaying game in which dungeoning and acquiring better gear and neat treasure as well as experience points to become better and stronger heroes is - very much objectively so - a part of the core element of the game.  It is entirely possibly that yours (or other peoples) experience with DnD was different, but that is absolutely an exception to the widely agreed upon way the game was meant to be played.

I think the two of you are talking about two slightly different things. Yes, all DnD involves "dungeoning and acquiring better gear and neat treasure," but also look at the second part of what you said: "as well as experience points to become better and stronger heroes."

We're capped at 20th level. Likewise, MAB is saying top-level gear is capped. If either of those keeps increasing, it becomes difficult to provide a challenge to high levels.

It's presumed once you max on level and equipment...you'll eventually closure your PC. Or if not, you'll stick around for RP only. The server isn't designed (and there aren't humans around) to keep supplying new content for higher and higher levels.

It's entirely possible you are correct.  However, two things.  I (and others) or not saying there shouldn't be a cap, we're simply saying the current pool of items is not very good.  Well, and that there are some disagreements on what is considered good balance.

Secondly, even if there were no cap I would disagree with the statement that it is difficult to provide a challenge for high level characters that adapts to a balanced increase in the level of gear.  There are other games that are examples of this, and I've personally played on other NWN servers that don't have any difficulty providing both new gear and consistent challenge for characters at the level cap.



Iridni Ren

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2017, 07:20:23 PM »
Fair enough. I agree with the general sense that "variety is the spice of life," and that being open to change and new ideas should never be a fault.

All I hoped to clarify is something like this:

I interpret your position as every game needs to find ways to keep players (including high levels) challenged and motivated. To me, MAB isn't disputing that. He's saying that throwing more powerful goodies at them is (in his experience) a solution likely to detract from the quality of the game.

My PC isn't treasure motivated, so I come at this differently, I suppose. Almost everything "good" she has someone has given her. Recently, however, one of her mentors offered her a whole slew of gear, and almost all of it I saw little reason to acquire. So that does seem to indicate a lot of treasure is of the "I'll pass" variety.

That doesn't bother me personally because of my PC's motivations, but I can certainly see where it would bother PCs with other, more traditional motivations.

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mappinger

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2020, 03:18:18 PM »

Depending on your build/class, there are 1-3 items for each accessory/equipment slot that are best in slot. These are typically the items people reserve for auctions, in addition to the legacy items that still exist from previous nerfs. And with how loot tables are generated, there are a lot of items that are genuinely nice/average items to find as a lower level character, but they only drop from high level dungeons due to their price (The old ranger's lore belt, as an example, 1st level wizard spells for rangers as as a 15th+ level dungeon reward? And the only spell on the item that even matters is invisibility)

I've always been unsure why there have been some items that got nerfed and all versions were updated, and other items were nerfed but the legacy items still exist. Those legacy items tend to show up as donkey-trade later down the road.

Ha! The first time I saw this item drop and noticed it offered a diverse group of *questionable spells, with the exception of Invisibility, my character expressed irrational hostility toward this intriguing-sounding item bearing the ranger name and being more fit for a level 3 character who doesn't have better things to do than cast burning hands!  :lol:

Personally, I'd rather have my quickbar invis potions compared to an item requiring: 1. carrying the weight/space of the item (admittedly not drastic in either case), 2. locate it in whatever storage bag it might be tucked away in, 3. equip the item, 4. toggle the spell, 5. re-equip a belt that has better use.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 04:12:03 PM by mappinger »

slash

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2020, 08:53:34 PM »
Phew! Thank goodness somebody necro'ed this thread, because there are some things about the loot table that I think need to be addressed :D

Primarily, decent spell slot gear basically doesn't drop anymore. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure it's because a change in Enhanced Edition has increased the gold value of spell slots on items and thus pushed most of the better spell slot items out of the normal loot tables (due to the whole "8000gp + base value of the item" thing). For context, I have a couple of high-ish level characters and consistently ran some of the highest level content on the server for the past two or three years now. This includes Ghastria, Sithicus (including Veidrava, which I will get to shortly!), Perfidus, basically everything. I also have a veritable legion of mid level and low level characters and have run just about every other dungeon (except for some of the newest ones) more times than I can count, and I can count pretty high (at least to a hundred). Strangely, I haven't seen any spell slot gear that gave anything higher than level 3 (for full progression casters) drop since at least December, and possibly earlier. Now, I personally don't get much use out of spell slot gear on my caster, mostly because he's a high level with a bunch of spell slots from his level and caster level, but fourth level spell slots make a huge difference for mid level casters, to the point where having an extra one or two of them can determine whether or not you can handle a given dungeon or encounter (think extended hastes, shield of faith, divine power, etc). Obviously, this doesn't even begin to touch on the usefulness of higher level spell slot items, but I personally find those ultimately unnecessary (even if a neat little trinket) so I won't touch on them. Anyway, if this change in drop rate for spell slot items is unintentional, I think it should be fixed, and if it is intentional, I think it may be worth addressing in terms of reasons why the change was made (oh yeah, this is assuming that this is a real phenomenon and not just bad luck on my part).

I've got some other things but I don't really feel like typing it :P I will say, however, that on the whole, the state of loot on the server has markedly improved since I joined the server, and I think the Dev team deserves some kudos for it!  :lol:
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Kaninchen

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2020, 09:49:06 AM »
EO answered me about this in discord before, stating that it was intentional, and not an EE change. If I recall correctly, it was said the devs made this change as they felt spell slot gear was entirely too common, so they lowered the drop rate on things.  I could be be wrong in what I recall of the conversation, as it was many months ago.

slash

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2020, 11:28:21 AM »
EO answered me about this in discord before, stating that it was intentional, and not an EE change. If I recall correctly, it was said the devs made this change as they felt spell slot gear was entirely too common, so they lowered the drop rate on things.  I could be be wrong in what I recall of the conversation, as it was many months ago.

In that case, I think it would be worth re-evaluating just how much they lowered the drop rate, because spell slot gear has gone from being common to essentially nonexistent, to the point that I don't see them drop anymore.
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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2020, 12:13:36 PM »
Most of it still drops but, yeah it is difficult to find. Really need to target the correct places consistently, don't expect to be lucky enough to find the gauntlets of the fallen paladin in the low level area it used to be easily found in any more.

If you need more spells in your party, hire another caster - then you have lots more spellslots.

Iridni Ren

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2020, 12:31:29 PM »
If you need more spells in your party, hire another caster - then you have lots more spellslots.

Spell casters want spell slot items to augment their abilities, just as mundanes want gear to augment skills, armor, and weapons. I suppose we could breezily decide to eliminate all of that too and just tell mundanes to hire more mundanes. Or just level up and get good :)

Both would seem pretty dismissive of player concerns as well as the thread topic.

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zDark Shadowz

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2020, 12:46:12 PM »
That's not comparable in this regard, more mundanes don't cure bad AB/AC/Resistances like gear does, but another spellcaster does give a party a lot more spells to work with.

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2020, 03:38:48 PM »
The increase of rarity in spell slot items was due to a PotM update; the myth that it was a NWN update was dispelled by the developers some time ago. It was a deliberate change. Spell slot items above the 4th circle have become essentially discontinued & grandfathered, and the 4th circle itself is only found in the rarest of loot spawns.

edit:



By "undervalued," he means "loot has a set value per chest, and the value of spell slot items was too low, causing them to spawn too often."
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 03:43:58 PM by SardineTheAncestor »
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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2020, 04:04:42 PM »
As mentioned above, it is an intentional change. As far as I know, the position of the devs is basically that caster classes will only be getting buffs/QoL over their cold, dead bodies.

If there is any reason that might influence a second look at current spellslot itemization, I think it would be that the fix for Divine casters getting spells "early" makes those items much less oppressively powerful than they were.
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tylernwn

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2020, 04:09:15 PM »
Keep in mind that on POTM we have a very low "maximum value" for loot, which is 8000 + item's base price (ex: a full plate's total cost couldn't be over 9500). In the last hak update, which is about three years ago, we tweaked the cost values of various properties that were not balanced, which raised the cost of many items above the threshold. That was a problem with many Sithican items, which I had to then readjust to be below the 8000gp limit.

In any case, it's fairly complicated to balance items within that cost range. To give you an idea, most items in the NwN single player campaign are worth hundreds of thousands of gold pieces. As soon as you start adding funky properties such as on hit properties, the cost jumps up immensely, so to balance it out price-wise, you have to add quite a few negatives.

I think suggesting new items within the 8000 cap is an excellent idea. I think I'll be posting some new ideas in the respective discussion thread.

How are negative price adjustments calculated? I don't see Aurora lowering item price when bad qualities are added.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 05:25:27 PM by tylernwn »

SardineTheAncestor

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2020, 04:48:47 PM »
If there is any reason that might influence a second look at current spellslot itemization, I think it would be that the fix for Divine casters getting spells "early" makes those items much less oppressively powerful than they were.

Some multiclass-only items with spell slots would be cool, been thinking about suggesting a few for a while.
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Yesper

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Re: The State of Loot
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2020, 10:52:27 PM »
The spellslot items that I would, personally, consider healthy and a good investment are still largely available IG. Can confirm, I looted quite a few of them. What I imagine is being talked about, here, are the older items that grant eighth level spell slots. Or anything over fifth. The amount of utility granted by those items far outweighed what they were valued at in the loot tables. I do, however, find it tragic that they are nonexistent at this point.

PrC spellslot items when?