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Author Topic: More admins  (Read 4132 times)

Folly

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More admins
« on: July 27, 2017, 12:09:03 AM »
I think Ravenloft could use more administrative enabled players.
We are limited to quite a few and I'm sure some of you get by just fine waiting around for DM's to show up.
But you really could add more admins to facilitate problems or requests.

They do not need to be DM's who do roleplay oriented tasks.

Just need more admins capable of carrying out tasks like restoring items, fixing characters stuck in a bugged status, and such.

I know this server has people who would prefer to keep things as they are and not change because they have stubborn minds, but try to see past that.

----
Now I do ask, can a player become such a position?  One that is not needed to do RP related tasks, but just facilitate administrative duties?
If a position does not exist, why does it not exist? I do not see why it can not.

I really think there are players who would be upto a job not as demanding or detailed as a full-on DM. I looked at the DM application sheet and it seemed intimidating to me.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 12:20:20 AM by Folly »

DM Erebus

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Re: More admins
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2017, 01:53:55 AM »
Hi!

The topic of Assistant DMs, to do the sort of 'grunt work' you describe, has been brought up before!
And it was decided ADMs would be against the server ethos.

Thanks!

Folly

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Re: More admins
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2017, 02:42:02 AM »
Please do not just dismiss this topic like that.  So you mentioning it has been brought up before, made me try and look for possible threads. I wanted to see what points were being made.

I found this thread: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=39108
Which is completely off point of what I'm asking for.

The type of admin role I'm asking for is like a server mod on any other game server.  They aren't going to control NPCS, they aren't going to be an "atmospheric DM" or whatever was mentioned in that thread.  They simply take care of player problems that are not roleplay related.  Like I said, player stuck somewhere, or stuck in a broken state where you can't get up, or lost items because of server reset.

They would not be breaking any kind of server ethos. They are not able to spawn monsters, or meddle with things they should not be meddling with.
That thread I linked is so off point of what I was asking for.
Is there another thread that discusses what I'm asking?

An analogy:
If you were playing DnD(in real life), this would be a person that is able to put white out on your character sheet over your writing in ink and fix something you wrote wrong.
A DM is NOT needed to do that. Simply a person with the tools a normal player does not have. On this server, that person would be a player with more powers.

I hope that analogy helps you understand what I'm asking for.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 02:43:58 AM by Folly »

DM Brimstone

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Re: More admins
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2017, 03:18:25 AM »
I'll try to answer some of your questions and offer my personal opinion on the subject. 

Now I do ask, can a player become such a position? 

Currently, no.  No role exists for players to facilitate all of the administrative duties that you mentioned.  However, there are several administrative roles that the Community Council can perform such as player mediation, application of subraces, application of PrCs, answering server inquires, etc.  Remakes, AMPC/MPC requests, stuck characters, rule violations, head changes, and OCR fixing requires a DM. 

Quote
If a position does not exist, why does it not exist? I do not see why it can not.

Honestly, a DM probably is required to comprehensively address this question.  Though, in my estimation, I would imagine that assigning an individual a role of being an Administrative DM would be a tedious position to hold.  Many of us play on this server for a creative outlet and for engaging in the collaborative narrative and storytelling experience of the server.  A purely administrative role would detract from that as well as introduce complexities such as how much visibility of the various aspects of the server are afforded to the admin DM.  Since it could be a possible avenue for exploitation, given the admin DM would, I imagine, have access to a DM tools in some capacity, it would still require a thorough vetting process before elevating the individual to an admin DM role.  Which, at that point, wouldn't it just be better to have the versatility of being a full DM with the possibility for developing and executing plots, possessing NPCs, enriching character stories, and enhancing the server atmosphere?

Based upon your inquiry, I took a look at the Generic Requests thread which should house the requests for the majority of the DM requests by players (at least the ones that haven't already been addressed in-game).   In the span of the last ten days, four generic requests postings were made.  I don't know if these have already been addressed or are still in queue.  In the last thirty days, thirteen requests posts were made.  Of those thirteen, only ten would apply to the administrative role that you are proposing.  For the ten requests in thirty days, the DMs would have to train each individual admin in the usage and protocol of fixing each one of those incidences.  So it is possible that you would only create more of a burden on the DM staff through training in order to address a potential average of a request once every three days (assuming the current general requests haven't already been taken care of). On top of all that, extensive deliberation would have to occur regarding what the admin DMs would have access to, both forum and client-side wise. 

I'm just not sure that the demand warrants the effort behind instituting a new role. 

Arawn

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Re: More admins
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2017, 03:42:23 AM »
There is no way to differentiate between the access given to a DM and the access given to a player administrator. The main concern is not, in fact, ability to abuse the client but access to OOC information. There are strict restrictions on DM PCs in no small part because we are privy to all of that information. We select our DMs very, very carefully, as a result. The upside, as it were, to having to deal with these restrictions on top of the already-onerous role of dealing with player requests, handling rulebreaks, being cussed at and flamed, and so forth is that you get to tell stories, engage players, and bring the world to life. What you're proposing is essentially all of the grunt work with none of the reward.
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Tycat

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Re: More admins
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2017, 03:45:51 AM »
The CC is also very good to go to for anything that's not mechanical. Issues, concerns, and handling of potential rule breaks, beefs, and arguments. If i am correct anyway. They really do function well for us as mediators.
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Zero Darkon Thirty

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Re: More admins
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2017, 01:35:40 PM »
Couldn't agree more, except I actually think we could benefit from more DMs to help with plots. I think it's an underestimation to say half of the DM team is inactive, some I've not even seen in my on/off 1 1/2 years of playing here. I can almost guarantee that is due to the qualifications required to become a DM, which realistically would seem to take years of being a DM without any actual power. Things like that can burn you out rather quickly. That said, it's very unlikely to happen. I'm unsure why.

booksarefun666

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Re: More admins
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2017, 08:09:46 PM »
You might just have to live with the fact that there'll be a frequent shortage of DMs and a response rate that isn't immediate, OP. It's just a natural downside to having such stringent requirements with the DM client to minimize the potential drawback of giving someone unlimited power over the server.

I'd say no one would want to do all the grunt work with none of the benefits (or pay) like Arawn said, but forum moderators and the community council exists so I'm sure someone would step up to the plate.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 08:18:36 PM by booksarefun666 »

Pav

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Re: More admins
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2017, 08:37:19 PM »
While I agree that we do need more DM's, ADM's will be not be a solution, though a detriment.

Personally, I would like to see some of the criteria revised. It seems like they haven't been in a long time, just looking at the developer application as another example - the criteria there indeed seem to be crafted to fit a 2005 server, not a 2017 one that could handle much more than what is listed with such convincing wording.

A lot of our policies seem antique and could use at least some revision, in my opinion, but the age old argument of "it worked then, it'll work now" would still pop out to beat me down.

In general, however, the DM's that are active are doing a good job of it, and I applaud them for carrying the weight they do. You are all, truly, an hero.

A minor Glamour

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Re: More admins
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2017, 09:05:30 AM »
Please do not just dismiss this topic like that.  So you mentioning it has been brought up before, made me try and look for possible threads. I wanted to see what points were being made.

I found this thread: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=39108
Which is completely off point of what I'm asking for.

The type of admin role I'm asking for is like a server mod on any other game server.  They aren't going to control NPCS, they aren't going to be an "atmospheric DM" or whatever was mentioned in that thread.  They simply take care of player problems that are not roleplay related.  Like I said, player stuck somewhere, or stuck in a broken state where you can't get up, or lost items because of server reset.

They would not be breaking any kind of server ethos. They are not able to spawn monsters, or meddle with things they should not be meddling with.
That thread I linked is so off point of what I was asking for.
Is there another thread that discusses what I'm asking?

An analogy:
If you were playing DnD(in real life), this would be a person that is able to put white out on your character sheet over your writing in ink and fix something you wrote wrong.
A DM is NOT needed to do that. Simply a person with the tools a normal player does not have. On this server, that person would be a player with more powers.

I hope that analogy helps you understand what I'm asking for.

When The Inquisitor said this has been discussed before it more than likely means this was discussed by the admins privately, rather than openly on the forums by the community.

Exordium

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Re: More admins
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2017, 05:06:55 PM »
Some years ago, I was far enough into wondering about this subject as to almost make a suggestion about it, but Arawn pretty well summed up the issues present. The root of the problem is that DMs have to have some distance from much of the PC action when they are on their PCs. The most obvious detail is that DMs aren't allowed to be in factions with their PCs. It's very hard to make a complete distinction between what you accidentally learn as a DM and what your PC knows - even if you can do that distinction, it is impossible for other players to be sure of your ability. Certainly, I trust the DMs and I trust the devs to be able to do distinctions like this, but if I didn't know them as actual persons, how could I ever really be sure?

Without full DM powers, some tasks are pretty hard to do, like restoring lost items. You need to have access to a bunch of logs and communication that can be of the sort that can spoil a lot of the in-character happenings. I used to be a DM for a while and one of the reasons for myself to leave the DM team was that I wanted to do immersive, sometimes conflict-prone stuff as a PC. It's hard, really hard, to do that as a DM, and still retain any element of genuine surprise in how events unfold.

The CC team can do some adminstrative tasks such as allow PrCs. I guess what could be technically possible would be to extend some adminstrative capabilities, such as restoring player passwords or booting players, as PC widgets that could be wielded by appointed PCs, but there are some problems there. Security, the like, and it'd need an application process of its own that would have significant overlap with the DM process.

I don't know if any such idea would be worth it, but personally I wouldn't be unwilling to discuss specific suggestions. I'm unaware if there's ever been a larger discussion about it amongst devs or DMs.

But in the end, even if there was (and I'm not saying there is) any kind of a consensus about such widgets being doable, it'd still hinge on someone actually going through the trouble of creating them in a way where we can be pretty sure about the lack of any significant potential for abuse. Unfortunately often, the question becomes about if it is worth the trouble?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 05:15:01 PM by Exordium »

Tycat

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Re: More admins
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2017, 07:32:34 PM »
We used to be given Widgets for faction RP. Like Stage set up for plays, and a circus set up. We'd be able to use these widgets and set up a whole scene, but this was removed from PC's because they caused lag. The characters who had these widgets had a lot of code connected to them, and PC's are stored server side, where as DM avatars are not, and that's why they have these code intensive widgets. If we had a widget for administrative powers, that would be this issue all over again.
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Exordium

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Re: More admins
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2017, 08:13:49 PM »
We used to be given Widgets for faction RP. Like Stage set up for plays, and a circus set up. We'd be able to use these widgets and set up a whole scene, but this was removed from PC's because they caused lag. The characters who had these widgets had a lot of code connected to them, and PC's are stored server side, where as DM avatars are not, and that's why they have these code intensive widgets. If we had a widget for administrative powers, that would be this issue all over again.
Not exactly, the problem with the widgets that store setups is that they store all the data of the setup on the server-side item. An adminstrative widget wouldn't really store anything as such. It'd just call specific functions.

Iluvatar / Madness

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Re: More admins
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 08:19:29 PM »
We used to be given Widgets for faction RP. Like Stage set up for plays, and a circus set up. We'd be able to use these widgets and set up a whole scene, but this was removed from PC's because they caused lag. The characters who had these widgets had a lot of code connected to them, and PC's are stored server side, where as DM avatars are not, and that's why they have these code intensive widgets. If we had a widget for administrative powers, that would be this issue all over again.
Not exactly, the problem with the widgets that store setups is that they store all the data of the setup on the server-side item. An adminstrative widget wouldn't really store anything as such. It'd just call specific functions.
And I'll add, whether the function is triggered by a DM or a Player, it doesn't make a difference, the code is executed the same way. Most of the scripts are also optimized to use as less resources as possible, lag really isn't an issue in this case, as Exordium said.
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Arawn

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Re: More admins
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2017, 08:42:48 PM »
Yeah, different widgets.
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Folly

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Re: More admins
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2017, 05:26:49 AM »
I understand the difficulties. And I guess forget this thread.

I just felt a person like me wouldn't mind taking care of admin requests.
I wouldn't have the time nor feel like creating roleplay/story stuff. Which is why I felt some people would be comfortable just being an assistant.
There are some of us who feel rewarded by helping others and making a community function better.

TheGrinningHound

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Re: More admins
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 09:08:18 AM »
That's a good thing, too, Folly.

From all the other servers I used to play on, PoTM removes a really noticeable administrative chunk from the DM's table already, in the form of the Community Council. Seeing it in motion a couple years back, I had actually tried to advocate for a similar system on a separate server. I know how hard it is to try to suggest changes like these.

If you're sincere about helping alleviate some DM pressure, you should consider applying for Community Council. CC members are voted in based on a majority by the community, so you'll need to get to know other players and continue to be helpful in the ways you already can to win their confidence.

Basically, there are avenues already where you can help out. And from my experience as a DM elsewhere, and as a CC member now, I really really really believe that dealing with player relations is one of the biggest and most time consuming administrative duties for a staff member to do. It has a tendency to burn people out, turn people jaded against their own community (That's not really the case here, since we rotate out).

Blight

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Re: More admins
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 12:09:43 PM »
We simply need more DMs. The current team is not capable of handling the size of our playerbase.
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MAB77

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Re: More admins
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 11:46:59 PM »
We simply need more DMs. The current team is not capable of handling the size of our playerbase.

Ultimately the number of DMs is only limited by the amount of qualified volunteers applying for this demanding position. We are always on the look out for good DM talents.

If anyone feels like they "can" and "wants" to be a DM you can find the application form here: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=21486.0

Best Regards!
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Iridni Ren

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Re: More admins
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2017, 12:08:37 AM »
Quote
This includes not swearing at staff or players

I'm out :)

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booksarefun666

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Re: More admins
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2017, 12:57:31 AM »
Quote
This includes not swearing at staff or players

I'm out :)

Damn it.

Tycat

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Re: More admins
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2017, 03:01:44 AM »
Quote
This includes not swearing at staff or players

This is such an important piece of literature. We all get heated. I've been heated. Everyone knows when I get heated my typing gets gross with typos. But we're all people, and most of us would be great to have a drink with or share chicken wings with, or ride a roller coaster with. Anyway, that's so off topic.

yeah, Totally. CC all the way. I am actually wondering if our current CC is a bit out of date? Will there be elections any time soon? As for DM's, most of the time, you just gotta wait for a day or two. Never assume they are ignoring you either, but don't be afraid to send them reminder PM's to make sure they got your first one.
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DM Brimstone

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Re: More admins
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2017, 12:19:10 PM »
The developers are currently occupied with the hak development, release, and testing. Once that process has been completed, I've been informed that the CC elections will be held. As for when the hak will be completed and released, no timetable has currently been established. But, rest assured, the devs are working diligently on it and I'm pretty stoked for all the planned additions.

Blight

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Re: More admins
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2017, 04:21:13 PM »
The developers are currently occupied with the hak development, release, and testing. Once that process has been completed, I've been informed that the CC elections will be held. As for when the hak will be completed and released, no timetable has currently been established. But, rest assured, the devs are working diligently on it and I'm pretty stoked for all the planned additions.

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Iridni Ren

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Re: More admins
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2017, 03:02:21 AM »
The developers are currently occupied with the hak development, release, and testing. Once that process has been completed, I've been informed that the CC elections will be held. As for when the hak will be completed and released, no timetable has currently been established. But, rest assured, the devs are working diligently on it and I'm pretty stoked for all the planned additions.

So...we're going to have an election soon? I don't think elections really require DM time or developer time either, do they?

Has it been a year?

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=43974.msg553777#msg553777

« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 03:04:22 AM by Iridni Ren »

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