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Author Topic: Assassin Spells Feedback  (Read 6083 times)

DM Brimstone

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2017, 12:06:46 AM »
In addition, fixing Arcane Spell Failure on the spells would be welcome (currently doesn't apply, hasn't happened once even when in chainmail and a tower shield for testing purposes), as well as correcting Caster Level scaling. Durations for spells remain innate, but the DCs scale. This becomes annoying, often.

It should be noted that per the PrC listing in the DMG page 181:  "An assassin casts spells just as a bard does."  So ASF should only apply to medium and heavy armors and shields, if ASF is instituted. The should be able to wear light armor without being subjected to the ASF.

As for my personal opinion about the spells, I don't really think that see invisibility and expeditious retreat fit the PrC thematically.  If the developers were to consider adding any third level spells, after all this is the developers' call, I would suggest One with the Land as a replacement for the "Pass without Trace" spell.  Pass without Trace, per the standard PrC. is a level 2 spell for assassins, but a level 1 spell for druid/rangers.  So the One with a Land spell (a level 2 spell for rangers), could add the +1 level to it and make it a level 3 assassin spell.  Light Step is another thematically appropriate selection for assassins. I'd also suggest that the new spell, Damning Darkness, could fit well as an assassin spell at level 4. It ultimately depends on how the developers view the balance of the class and how they envision the integration of it into the server/atmosphere.

Assassins also gain the ability to use poisons, so if a poison crafting system was ever introduced, they would have the opportunity to utilize that for poisoning food/drink or coating their weapons (and not risk accidentally poisoning themselves in the process).  Thus fulfilling TheGrinningHound's vision of more potent poisons for the assassin's arsenal.

Allowing them to take spell focus or select metamagic feats (such as silence, still and extend), if it is possible to implement, seems like a good way to allow them maneuver spells around through the various spell slots. I'm not sure if it is applicable in NWN, but it should also be considered that all spontaneous casters' spells, if using metamagic feats, become full round actions.

Pav

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2017, 05:31:38 AM »
In addition, fixing Arcane Spell Failure on the spells would be welcome (currently doesn't apply, hasn't happened once even when in chainmail and a tower shield for testing purposes), as well as correcting Caster Level scaling. Durations for spells remain innate, but the DCs scale. This becomes annoying, often.

It should be noted that per the PrC listing in the DMG page 181:  "An assassin casts spells just as a bard does."  So ASF should only apply to medium and heavy armors and shields, if ASF is instituted. They should be able to wear light armor without being subjected to the ASF.

That is not how Bards work in PotM, and as I said, ASF still does not apply in chainmail and tower shield.

As for my personal opinion about the spells, I don't really think that see invisibility and expeditious retreat fit the PrC thematically.

A hunter/killer being able to see invisible targets or run quickly toward a kill or away from the scene of a failed crime is not appropriate?

I'd also suggest that the new spell, Damning Darkness, could fit well as an assassin spell at level 4. It ultimately depends on how the developers view the balance of the class and how they envision the integration of it into the server/atmosphere.

This is an issue, because at current, Assassin spells have been designed to only have four of each level, with only four spell casts, as a deliberate design choice. This is why I am suggesting replacements, and not additions.

As a general comment, Assassins are allowed to take Spell Focuses and Metamagics - the latter of which simply do not work.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 05:35:54 AM by Pav »

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2017, 08:03:04 AM »
Instead of completely removing those two spell by ones who aren't as much themed with the assassins PrC, I think we should instead propose changes to the current spell to give it a bit more punch, or to find other spell that are more unique to the Assassin PrC rather than switching those two spell for spells that are available with potion and to other spellcasting class. What is fun of playing a PrC is having different things to work with.
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DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2017, 08:43:30 AM »
A minimalist solution to the problem would indeed be to improve the two existing spells, since Pav's primary criticism is they are useless except as flavor. He also says the alternative spells are easy enough to come by for assassins who want to use them, and their cost is "nonexistent."

Would letting assassins add their full assassin level to the DCs of the two poison spells be unbalancing?

Spider poison is a 4th level spell for wizards and sorcerers. So if it is underpowered as a third level spell for assassins, then it must be either always useless, or it's useless because assassins have fewer levels when they cast it. Hence, perhaps giving them full level bonus (which makes sense also in terms of the class because assassins are the best at poisons in general) would amp the spells to the point where they are useful to assassins.
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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2017, 11:08:40 AM »
As much as it pains me to say it, Pav is right this time.

When it comes to assassins having spells being part of an argument here, if you direct yourself to the prc information page, you have to have some training in casting arcane spells, and most of the time when someone is learning magic, even if it is with the intent of killing people certainly exp retreat would be something that would have been looked at by anyone with 8+ int to learn. See invis might be harder to justify in character, but I don't think its too far up there seeing as how assassins need to be able to kill anyone, and any wizard ever knows invisibility.

Now that my rp justification rant is over, lets talk mechanics.
As pav said, you need to be a level 5 assassin with 16 int to be able to cast a level 3 spell that has a dc of 18. That means the earliest you can cast it is level 10. If you were to use it on someone similarly leveled, Clerics, Paladins, Rangers, WM, RDD, blackguards, monks, dwarven defenders, divine champions, fighters and Barbarians all have 7 fortitude base and thats assuming no save feats (Which is rare) and no con mods, have about a 50% chance of not succeeding the save, and it only scales up as levels go up, poison with a lesser dc is an even lower chance. That means over half of the classes available on the server with 10 con (Which never happens for those classes) and 0 save feats (Which is even rarer) Can just pass the dc by existing.

At level 10, you have 2 attacks with your main hand, and two with your off hand assuming you took imp two weapon fighting (Why wouldn't you) so instead of spending an entire round trying to cast a spell, you could just pop out of invis and death attack with your 10 (Base assassin dc) + 5 (assassin levels) + 3 (Assumed 16 int mod) 18dc death attack, which you can get two off in a single flurry with four attacks a round, and they are flat footed so their ac is about their touch ac (Which is all the poisons have going for them.) Which gives you a higher chance to apply your status effect which is PARALYZE instead of minor str drain, and if you feel so inclined you can always apply a spider venom to your weapons while you are invis before you strike, meaning you can attempt to poison them while you try to paralyze them with about the same dc (If not more). The argument could be made well what if you fail, use it then. Except, if you poisoned your weapons, you are getting 4 chances of poisoning instead of one, while still doing damage, and you didn't invoke an attack of opportunity.

As far as rp applications of these spells when you want to humiliate someone. Those situations are so rare and far between dropping a hundred gold on a scroll and just sitting on it for a few years is perfectly viable. And the gold cost of exp retreat/see invis is almost negligable when people pay you 10k+ for a head. There are other arguments for adding lightstep or one with the land as a spell suggestion and there is no complaints, despite those costing 200+ a scroll and buffing stealth, one of the most complained about things in the game.

I don't see buffing the poisons ever being viable, unless the dc was pushed beyond what should be reasonable, they were made to be weapon applicable(So just attacking with another poison isn't strictly better) or they are a ranged touch attack so you could slow someone while they ran, honestly slow is a better spell than poison is at the moment it fills the same role, but better.

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2017, 11:17:33 AM »
Instead of completely removing those two spell by ones who aren't as much themed with the assassins PrC, I think we should instead propose changes to the current spell to give it a bit more punch, or to find other spell that are more unique to the Assassin PrC rather than switching those two spell for spells that are available with potion and to other spellcasting class. What is fun of playing a PrC is having different things to work with.

What makes the PrC different is Death Attack. The spells are complimentary.

Improving these poisons would make it so that they are much, MUCH stronger for the other classes that could cast them, as they have more room for taking complimentary spell foci and metamagics (that they in fact always take), and they have the privilege of having 20 levels instead of 10 (and most assassins wouldn't take 10 levels, either).

I believe there are only a few options going forward in order to improve this specific facet of the class -

a) See Invis and Exp Retreat. Spells a level 3 wizard can cast numerous times, given to another class to cast 1 time for either at level 10, assuming 16 int and continuous Assassin leveling. If you think this is OP, for whatever ungodly reason, then...
b) Damning/Deeper Darkness and Light Step. Adding Light Step to an Assassin's arsenal is in fact a nerf, as the spell will no longer scale off Character Level as it does from UMD'd scroll, but from Assassin levels - and at this point in time, the durations remain innate. This would be a hamstring to the class if anything, but it's better than having nothing for that level of spells. If you are still unconvinced, then...
c) Keep it as is.

This is a feedback thread after all, meant to get people thinking about doing better things for server features. If the development team thinks things are fine, then that's how they are.

DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2017, 11:28:55 AM »
Improving these poisons would make it so that they are much, MUCH stronger for the other classes that could cast them, as they have more room for taking complimentary spell foci and metamagics (that they in fact always take), and they have the privilege of having 20 levels instead of 10 (and most assassins wouldn't take 10 levels, either).

Not if improved in the way I suggested: assassins get to add their full levels, whereas no other class would.

(The second part of what you write above about feats and levels is already true, so that's a non-issue.)

In any case, your original point was that these two spells are under-powered. None of the three options you list addresses that directly. The most straightforward way to fix under-powered spells is to tweak the spells themselves. If you believe doing so would make the spells over-powered for other classes, then just don't tweak them in the same way for the other classes.
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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2017, 11:34:07 AM »
Improving these poisons would make it so that they are much, MUCH stronger for the other classes that could cast them, as they have more room for taking complimentary spell foci and metamagics (that they in fact always take), and they have the privilege of having 20 levels instead of 10 (and most assassins wouldn't take 10 levels, either).

Not if improved in the way I suggested: assassins get to add their full levels, whereas no other class would.

(The second part of what you write above about feats and levels is already true, so that's a non-issue.)

In any case, your original point was that these two spells are under-powered. None of the three options you list addresses that directly. The most straightforward way to fix under-powered spells is to tweak the spells themselves. If you believe doing so would make the spells over-powered for other classes, then just don't tweak them in the same way for the other classes.

I think that is too much work for the dev team compared to taking out and replacing spells. In addition, even if the DC was a touch higher, it would still be an insubstantial amount. At most, 5, if you are gimping yourself by playing 10 Assassin.

They are pointless spells for a character of that level to have at their disposal, buffed proportionally or not.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 11:37:56 AM by Pav »

DrXavierTColtrane

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2017, 12:00:00 PM »
I think that is too much work for the dev team compared to taking out and replacing spells. In addition, even if the DC was a touch higher, it would still be an insubstantial amount. At most, 5, if you are gimping yourself by playing 10 Assassin.

They are pointless spells for a character of that level to have at their disposal, buffed proportionally or not.

1) I don't know which is worse for the dev team, but I assume they'll weigh the cost of the work required versus the benefit to the game that's achieved.

2) Otherwise, I'm trying to respond to what you write, as well as the reluctance of others to grant you what you want. (Personally, I find your arguments about See Invisibility reasonable, and receiving Expeditious Retreat as a third level spell seems to me so inconsequential that I could care less.)

Still, both of those spells you say assassins can achieve at practically zero cost. Therefore, even if you view the DC bump as insignificant, assassins would receive something. Given your own premises, taking away something and swapping it for two spells which you already can achieve (i.e., nothing) seems to me to be a net negative.

I don't care enough about this topic to get too much into the mathematical fine print, but a DC bump from +5 at level 10 to +10 at level 10 seems significant to me. Most feats (such as spell focus) are +2 to DCs, so even for a level four assassin the difference is comparable to a a feat.
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Pav

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2017, 12:07:14 PM »
I think that is too much work for the dev team compared to taking out and replacing spells. In addition, even if the DC was a touch higher, it would still be an insubstantial amount. At most, 5, if you are gimping yourself by playing 10 Assassin.

They are pointless spells for a character of that level to have at their disposal, buffed proportionally or not.

1) I don't know which is worse for the dev team, but I assume they'll weigh the cost of the work required versus the benefit to the game that's achieved.

2) Otherwise, I'm trying to respond to what you write, as well as the reluctance of others to grant you what you want. (Personally, I find your arguments about See Invisibility reasonable, and receiving Expeditious Retreat as a third level spell seems to me so inconsequential that I could care less.)

Still, both of those spells you say assassins can achieve at practically zero cost. Therefore, even if you view the DC bump as insignificant, assassins would receive something. Given your own premises, taking away something and swapping it for two spells which you already can achieve (i.e., nothing) seems to me to be a net negative.

I don't care enough about this topic to get too much into the mathematical fine print, but a DC bump from +5 at level 10 to +10 at level 10 seems significant to me. Most feats (such as spell focus) are +2 to DCs, so even for a level four assassin the difference is comparable to a a feat.

It may seem significant, but a +5 bump in this context, in this server, is worthless. We can crunch numbers if you'd like in PM's and we'd reach that conclusion together after some time.

It is not a net negative to have those spells replaced, it is in fact, as I have already said, a quality of life service. It simply makes walking over to the scroll shop or herbalist's hut less of a nuisance in your day to day. It's something to use for that level of spells when you wouldn't use any of it most of the time. I am not sure why you bring up parts of my argument but not bring up what completes them.

In the end, like you and I both said, it is up to the development team.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 12:08:53 PM by Pav »

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2018, 09:57:07 PM »
Hello,

I would like to bump this thread so this gets looked at again.

Moreover, bumping the Assassin's skills from 4+Int to 6+Int would be superb and would fit the other classes in its vein that currently receive more than it does.

Thanks.

Pav

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2019, 08:14:19 PM »
Bumping again, considering recent changes due to canon material.

As well, a good implementation from canon, if we are going down this route, would be the following.

Quote from: From the d20srd
Hide in Plain Sight (Su):

At 8th level, an assassin can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind. He cannot, however, hide in his own shadow.

Thanks.

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2019, 08:28:42 PM »
I agree.

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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2019, 08:33:54 PM »
Assassins already have two skills that don't exist in PnP that they're pretty heavily inclined to take here, in the form of Discipline and Parry.

But if we're going to move closer to PnP with skill taxes, I think Pav's suggestion for moving closer to PnP with class features is warranted.

In short: I agree.
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Re: Assassin Spells Feedback
« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2019, 10:31:44 PM »
+1 to both recent suggestions, the skill increase and higher level hiding ability

I think it puts the character better in line with what (in my view) it should be able to accomplish here on PoTM. I also think this would bring them to more equal footing with what other stealth/ambush type characters have at their disposal for the quick dispatching of targets.